What does Marchand need to be 1st ballot HHOFer?
- Thread starter goldenblack
- Start date
Weber was clearly a top 5 defender for a decade.
No personal trophies. Has not crosed the 1000 point mark. No 40 or 50 goal seasons. No 100 pt season.
He is not as close to the hall as some would like to believe
He is not as close to the hall as some would like to believe
Cubs2024wildcard
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He has a 100pt season, two others paced that
He has a 39 in 80 season
He will clearly pass 1000 pts by the end of his career
cowboy82nd
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No, no I'm not. I'm just stating that saying Toews belongs in the Hall of Fame because of his three cups is wrong. Cups help the player but that is a team accomplishment.
Cubs2024wildcard
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Well, if McDavid not going out to get his Smythe then crying in his jock because he didn't win a cup was any indication of how valuable a cup is, I don't really know what to tell you.
Toews was a huge reason why those Hawks teams won Cups. There's a huge difference in being a passenger and being a captain.
And lastly, how in the hell are individual awards voted on by hockey writers more valuable then beating your peers for the games biggest prize? Name one, just one, player who has stated he wants to win a Hart trophy over winning a Cup.
I'll wait.
cowboy82nd
Registered User
I have no idea who pissed in your wheaties, but I never said that players want to win a Hart trophy over winning the cup. All I said was that winning the Stanley Cup is a TEAM achievement. And what's with the statement about "a huge difference in being a passenger and being a captain"? A captain could still be a passenger in the playoffs (Steven Stamkos anyone). Again, I never said anything about Toews being a Hall of Famer or not a Hall of Famer.
Here's what I quoted:
This looks to me, that the person wrote that Toews deserves to be in the Hall of Fame because of his three Cups. So, my response to that was, Pat Maroon has three cups (does he deserve the Hall of Fame). Yes, winning the Stanley Cup helps players, but that shouldn't be the only thing they have. And I will save you time, YES I believe that Jonathan Toews deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. Next question.
Stephen
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Compare him right now to a guy like Vincent Lecavalier. Just under 950 points, 1 Stanley Cup, a few outstanding years in a career of very good. Captain of the Lightning, some international success. Obviously very different career trajectories, expectations.
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The HHOF has been watered down to the Hockey Hall of Good, it’s unfortunate that getting in is fairly meaningless nowadays
Golden_Jet
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HabsCode
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Dreadful comparaison, that's why it is mentioned.
Like the previous poster pointed out, Toews played a signifiant role for those cup (won the Conn Smythe for their first cup, was near PPG in their last and played Selke level defense the year of the second).
Maroon was nothing more than a supporting cast member for his 3 cups.
Cubs2024wildcard
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Which is puzzling considering hockey is a team sport.
When anybody starts throwing out individual awards to justify x player over being a multi Cup winner, they lost the argument.
When anybody points to x fourth liner with multiple cups to down grade star player who was a key cog in winning Cups, they lost the argument.
And for those in the back;
You play on a team, to win a Cup. If Connor McDavid, the best hockey player most of you will ever see, crying doesnt convince you how irrelevant individual awards are when he didn't even bother to pick up his Smythe that he totally deserved, and that winning a Cup is all that matters, you are doing it wrong.
As for Marchand, he's hall of very good.
What would put him in?
Another Cup
Glenn Anderson 6 cup rings, 498 goals. 214 playoff pts. If waited 6 years after being eligible. How is Marchand a first ballot hall of famer and not Anderson?
Please point to where I said 1st ballot?
Also please…. Trying to compare overall points of guys who played in the wild Wild West of the 80s to now
Crosby2010
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He'll get in. Not sure why he couldn't. He should. On the 1st ballot is another thing. I don't think it matters. Depending on the back log by the time he is eligigle. But a twice 1st team all-star, and twice 2nd team all-star, seriously how many players in NHL history have 4 of those and aren't in? Leclair maybe? Rick Martin? Carl Brewer? I like Marchand over all of them.
Why are his point totals lower prior to 2017 or so? It is because he barely got power play time in Boston all of those years. Look at his plus/minus during those early years. It is excellent. He was a 200 foot player from the day he was born. You could argue the Bruins went far too long before finally letting him hit his stride. One season of 100 points, three others where he is on pace for it but with missed time. Twice top 5 in Hart voting. Could have fit right in on the 2014 Olympic team, I felt. I figure he'd have been the type of guy Babcock would have liked, but either way he was on the 2016 World Cup team and thrived. Has an outside shot at 500 goals. But it is his playoff record that should put him over the top for a doubter. 138 points in 157 games. When did he have a bad postseason? He didn't produce well in 2012 or 2014. Other than that, win or lose he was producing. Helped take the Bruins on some long runs. Three times in the Cup final. Two goals and an assist in Game 7 of the 2011 Cup final. Was a thorn in the side of the Canucks that series, and he was a rookie. You knew when he used Sedin as a punching bag that the Bruins were going to win after that.
Can the regular season be more prolific? Yeah I think so, but like Ryan Getzlaf it is only part of the story with him, the playoffs are what catapults him, and let's face it, his all around game meant we all wanted him on our team. He'll be in the HHOF.
Why are his point totals lower prior to 2017 or so? It is because he barely got power play time in Boston all of those years. Look at his plus/minus during those early years. It is excellent. He was a 200 foot player from the day he was born. You could argue the Bruins went far too long before finally letting him hit his stride. One season of 100 points, three others where he is on pace for it but with missed time. Twice top 5 in Hart voting. Could have fit right in on the 2014 Olympic team, I felt. I figure he'd have been the type of guy Babcock would have liked, but either way he was on the 2016 World Cup team and thrived. Has an outside shot at 500 goals. But it is his playoff record that should put him over the top for a doubter. 138 points in 157 games. When did he have a bad postseason? He didn't produce well in 2012 or 2014. Other than that, win or lose he was producing. Helped take the Bruins on some long runs. Three times in the Cup final. Two goals and an assist in Game 7 of the 2011 Cup final. Was a thorn in the side of the Canucks that series, and he was a rookie. You knew when he used Sedin as a punching bag that the Bruins were going to win after that.
Can the regular season be more prolific? Yeah I think so, but like Ryan Getzlaf it is only part of the story with him, the playoffs are what catapults him, and let's face it, his all around game meant we all wanted him on our team. He'll be in the HHOF.
David Bruce Banner
Acid Raven Bed Burn
Hate the little f***, but he's pretty much a lock for the HoF.
He'd probably need another Cup, or another 100 pt. season or an individual award win to get in on the first ballot, though.
He'd probably need another Cup, or another 100 pt. season or an individual award win to get in on the first ballot, though.
qc14
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So has Pat Maroon. Toews' reputation precedes him and he has neither the peak nor the longevity to be a HoF caliber player in my opinion.
Senor Catface
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Anyone complaining about the "watering down" of the hall has to blame the sheer number of players inducted from the high scoring of the 80's/early 90's.
I mean, the top 14 players for total goals scored from 79/80 - 93/94 are all in the hall. Were the players so much better over those 15 years compared with the last 15 years? How about we judge players on their eras. Over the last 15 years (including this one), Marchand ranks 5th for goals scored, 1st for goals scored on the PK, 1st for overtime goals scored, tied for 2nd for game winning goals, 9th for points and 2nd for +/-. His mix of offensive production, defensive value and clutch play is incredible. We can debate on whether or not he will be a first ballot guy but to say he's not getting into the hall just seems ludicrous. He's the 2nd best LW in hockey of his era (only behind Ovi) isnt he? What am I missing?
I mean, the top 14 players for total goals scored from 79/80 - 93/94 are all in the hall. Were the players so much better over those 15 years compared with the last 15 years? How about we judge players on their eras. Over the last 15 years (including this one), Marchand ranks 5th for goals scored, 1st for goals scored on the PK, 1st for overtime goals scored, tied for 2nd for game winning goals, 9th for points and 2nd for +/-. His mix of offensive production, defensive value and clutch play is incredible. We can debate on whether or not he will be a first ballot guy but to say he's not getting into the hall just seems ludicrous. He's the 2nd best LW in hockey of his era (only behind Ovi) isnt he? What am I missing?
The problem is that you are skewing these stats in his favour. He's been in the league the last 15 years, not everyone else has been, so he'll be high on the stats list for that period vs. guys that player some of those earlier years, but retired already or guys that have only been in the league for the last 5-10 years. So, he has more goals scored the last 15 years than guys like Matthews, McDavid, MacKinnon, Pastrnak, Draisaitl, etc.....but that's not really a fair comparison.
In the end, those are a 15 year snapshot for the history of the NHL and Marchand was one of the very best players over that stretch. We could wait to do a 20 year I guess for his retirement but its still going to look insanely good for him. 60ish players are put into the Hall over 20 years. Even now, do you have 40+ players you would put above him over the last 15 years?
Matthews, McDavid, MacKinnon, Pastrnak, Draisaitl, Crosby, Ovi, etc. are our Gretz, Mario, Yzerman, Stastny, Kurri, Messier, Hull etc...but you cant forget about the Hawerchuks, Ciccarellis, Andersens, Goulets, Mullens, etc. from our time while enshrining theirs. The die has been cast no?
How do you think he compares to another LW like Goulet? How long did it take for Goulet to get in?
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