What does Draisaitl need to go down as the greatest ever number 2?

[daver]

Draisatl has been McDavid's equal in the playoffs.

This is a bit of an unanswered question. Does Draisaitl put up the same numbers on any other team or, as the OP title suggests, he benefits from having a generational talent like McDavid on his team.

His numbers suggest he is McDavid's equal but he has relied on McDavid to generate his offense more than McDavid has relied on Draisaitl. This is in line with what their regular season numbers would suggest.

I think he does play very well in the playoffs but am not convinced it is any better than Mac or Kucherov; both of whom take on the #1 role on their teams.

 

[wetcoast]

This is a bit of an unanswered question. Does Draisaitl put up the same numbers on any other team or, as the OP title suggests, he benefits from having a generational talent like McDavid on his team.

His numbers suggest he is McDavid's equal but he has relied on McDavid to generate his offense more than McDavid has relied on Draisaitl. This is in line with what their regular season numbers would suggest.

I think he does play very well in the playoffs but am not convinced it is any better than Mac or Kucherov; both of whom take on the #1 role on their teams.

That's a fair comment but it's not like Mack and Kuch don't have help either which kind of makes your whole premise kind of moot IMO.

For their careers in the Oilers there really isn't much if a gap in the playoffs between then if any.

Drai is great in his own right but yet people make the McDavid argument then aren't consistent with other similar players.

 

[wetcoast]

Overtaking Fedorov seems inevitable at this point. If he's not already there.

Decent chance he overtakes Forsberg and Malkin too.

Messier is unlikely. They're about as far away as you can get style and career wise.

Agree with this here although Fedorov and Foppa both had 200 foot games so there is that.

I think Moose is catchable but the only thing larger that Mooses ego is some nostalgic view of his greatness.

Moose is an all time great but his resume is very catchable.

 

[The Panther]

Messier in the playoffs from 1983 through 1994 is pretty damn elite. Like, up with the most elite performers of all-time. 11 years out of 12 he was in the playoffs (with two teams) and did the following:

1983
- 14 goals in first 10 games (through three rounds)
- 21 points in 15 games (even after Edmonton was shut down in the Finals) and +11
1984
- 26 points in 19 games
- Conn Smythe (over peak Gretzky), Stanley Cup
1985
- 25 points in 18 games, +14
- Stanley Cup (2 goals in Cup-clinching game)
1986
- 10 points in 10 games, but overall was a bit disappointing vs. Calgary, a series that Edmonton lost
1987
- 28 points in 21 games, +13
- led Oilers in scoring through three rounds
- scored game-tying goal in game 7 of Finals
- Stanley Cup
1988
- 34 points in 19 games
- led Oilers in scoring through three rounds
- Stanley Cup
1989
- Oilers lost to Gretzky-Kings in round one, but Messier had 12 points and a record 11 assists
1990
- co-led playoffs in scoring, with 31 points in 22 games
- Stanley Cup (as captain)
1991
- Only 15 points in 18 games, but he was hobbled and could barely skate at times (still scored a point-per-game vs. Calgary and vs. Minnesota)
- Scored the very last goal of the Oilers' dynasty vs. Minnesota in his final game as an Oiler
1992
- 14 points in 11 games for NYR, but had a few 'iffy' moments
1993
- NYR missed playoffs after late-season collapse
1994
- 30 points in 23 games, +15
- 'Guaranteed' win vs. Jersey in game six
- scored Cup-winning goal in game 7 of Finals
- Stanley Cup


So, let's add that up: Over 11 playoffs in 12 seasons, Messier did this:
-- 246 points in 183 games (1.34 PPG = slightly higher than in regular season)
-- Six Stanley Cups, seven times in Cup Final

I mean, good luck matching that!

It's notable that most of his scoring points with Edmonton in this period did not involve Gretzky. Some did (esp. 1983 to 1985), but very few after that. By 1986-87, Messier was scoring nearly no points shared with Gretzky. A few more maybe in 1988 because of the Oilers' deadly power-play that year, but overall he clearly didn't need Gretzky to produce at the same level he scored at in the mid-80s.

 

[wetcoast]

Messier in the playoffs from 1983 through 1994 is pretty damn elite. Like, up with the most elite performers of all-time. 11 years out of 12 he was in the playoffs (with two teams) and did the following:

1983
- 14 goals in first 10 games (through three rounds)
- 21 points in 15 games (even after Edmonton was shut down in the Finals) and +11
1984
- 26 points in 19 games
- Conn Smythe (over peak Gretzky), Stanley Cup
1985
- 25 points in 18 games, +14
- Stanley Cup (2 goals in Cup-clinching game)
1986
- 10 points in 10 games, but overall was a bit disappointing vs. Calgary, a series that Edmonton lost
1987
- 28 points in 21 games, +13
- led Oilers in scoring through three rounds
- scored game-tying goal in game 7 of Finals
- Stanley Cup
1988
- 34 points in 19 games
- led Oilers in scoring through three rounds
- Stanley Cup
1989
- Oilers lost to Gretzky-Kings in round one, but Messier had 12 points and a record 11 assists
1990
- co-led playoffs in scoring, with 31 points in 22 games
- Stanley Cup (as captain)
1991
- Only 15 points in 18 games, but he was hobbled and could barely skate at times (still scored a point-per-game vs. Calgary and vs. Minnesota)
- Scored the very last goal of the Oilers' dynasty vs. Minnesota in his final game as an Oiler
1992
- 14 points in 11 games for NYR, but had a few 'iffy' moments
1993
- NYR missed playoffs after late-season collapse
1994
- 30 points in 23 games, +15
- 'Guaranteed' win vs. Jersey in game six
- scored Cup-winning goal in game 7 of Finals
- Stanley Cup


So, let's add that up: Over 11 playoffs in 12 seasons, Messier did this:
-- 246 points in 183 games (1.34 PPG = slightly higher than in regular season)
-- Six Stanley Cups, seven times in Cup Final

I mean, good luck matching that!

It's notable that most of his scoring points with Edmonton in this period did not involve Gretzky. Some did (esp. 1983 to 1985), but very few after that.

By 1986-87, Messier was scoring nearly no points shared with Gretzky. A few more maybe in 1988 because of the Oilers' deadly power-play that year, but overall he clearly didn't need Gretzky to produce at the same level he scored at in the mid-80s.

No doubt that Moose's playoff resume is very impressive but the last part really overlooks the fact that Moose still was playing on a team with Gretzky then really loaded well balanced teams after that still.

I mean seriously you are a long time Oiler watcher and the teams that Moose played on where simply outstanding compared to the Oilers that Leon played on taking those 2 guys out of the equation and frankly isn't not even close.

Also in the regular season is where Draisaitl has the advantage with the better 7 year prime IMO.

But that being said Leon still has a long ways to go but no Moose isn't out of reach really.

 

[daver]

That's a fair comment but it's not like Mack and Kuch don't have help either which kind of makes your whole premise kind of moot IMO.

For their careers in the Oilers there really isn't much if a gap in the playoffs between then if any.

Drai is great in his own right but yet people make the McDavid argument then aren't consistent with other similar players.

I am more confident that Mac and Kucherov do just as well on another team as they are more proven to perform as the #1 straw stirrer on their team. This is very subjective of course because it gets into hypothetical scenarios.

Draisaitl has consistently not been a positive performer at ES in the playoffs when he is not on McDavid's line. This has been one of the downfalls of the Oilers; not being able to roll out two solid lines which puts pressure on them to put them together to generate offense and to score on the PP.

I can certainly see where you may take Draisaitl over Mac or Kucherov for a playoff run but I am not sold on the raw number argument that places Draisaitl clearly above those two. At the end of the day, fair or not, it is about getting the W's.

The other side of the coin is if you want to get into the "help" argument, if Draisaitl is McDavid's equal in the playoffs, how much has Draisaitl helped McDavid; a reasonable question to ask given the historically high % of point shares between them?

 

[daver]

The big variable of being a number 2 is not having access to the best wingers of the team.

I am not sure how much it applies to Forsberg career, the few time he played mostly full season it was almost always with the Avs best winger from memory, Lemieux-Kamensky, Tanguay-Hedjuk.

Was Forsberg really the #2 on the Avs anyways. Or Trottier? The OP presumes that the #2, while being a star player, is clearly below the level of the #1.

 

[daver]

Drai when he play with McDavid does not really apply obviously, other way around usual even but to take Malkin in example, for one of the best offensive center, outside peak James Neal and when Kessel played a bit with him, it is not glorious, sometime quite good (some time with Rust playing well, last juice of a Sykora or something, but the low were low for someone compared to all time first line center), all that talk about Malkin doing better when Crosby missing (not sure how true it was) but a lot of it could just be, better winger in general when Crosby not there.

Better wingers but also he faced the other team's #1 lines and d-pairings to be fair. Crosby also did better when Malkin was not necessarily out of the lineup but was not producing.

I think both of these increases are more likely due to them being much more relied on to generate offense than in times where both of them are doing a good job of producing on separate lines.

 

[wetcoast]

I am more confident that Mac and Kucherov do just as well on another team as they are more proven to perform as the #1 straw stirrer on their team. This is very subjective of course because it gets into hypothetical scenarios.

Draisaitl has consistently not been a positive performer at ES in the playoffs when he is not on McDavid's line. This has been one of the downfalls of the Oilers; not being able to roll out two solid lines which puts pressure on them to put them together to generate offense and to score on the PP.

I can certainly see where you may take Draisaitl over Mac or Kucherov for a playoff run but I am not sold on the raw number argument that places Draisaitl clearly above those two. At the end of the day, fair or not, it is about getting the W's.

The other side of the coin is if you want to get into the "help" argument, if Draisaitl is McDavid's equal in the playoffs, how much has Draisaitl helped McDavid; a reasonable question to ask given the historically high % of point shares between them?

Fair points but similar ones can be made for Mack and Kuch as well and IMO Drai has been elite at producing over a very long stretch now and when McDavid went down the year Leon won his Hart he didn't skip a beat.

Small sample size to be sure but it helps mitigate some of the subjective hypothetical as well.

I'll add that in both their first playoffs, McDavid being 20 and Leon being 21, Leon really stood out as the premier Oiler in the playoffs and it's not like McDavid wasn't dominant in the regular season either.

I guess the "what if he didn't play with McDavid" questions will always be there but then again that's the case for most players Leon is trying to catch and at some point the insane production becomes just so overwhelming right?

Especially in the playoffs his scoring rate is 36 points more per 80 than in the regular season and it's over a pretty large sample size and he has been an elite regular season scorer now for 6 straight seasons, has 2 more decent scoring years and a poor rookie year to go along with a decent sophomore year.

Someone said upthread that he couldn't catch Moose, well at the same age he is well ahead of Moose.

Now that might not continue but it's still there.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'd take Draisaitl over MacKinnon in the playoffs I think. Not because MacKinnon doesn't "flash" higher, but Drai is ruthlessly efficient in his process when he needs to be. MacKinnon is an over-player. He's almost as likely to tie himself in a knot or miss an assignment as he is to walk a defenseman. As long Drai isn't having a NoTrySaitl game, he's pretty diesel. He's been the best Oiler in this playoff by a pretty decent margin for me so far. But I also suspect McDavid is dealing with something given his unwillingness to shoot.

 

[Matsun]

Bump.

Draisaitl finishes the season with a Richard, Hart runner up and a 33 point playoff run. He is 7th all time in 100 point seasons and is one of 4 players with 3 or more 30+ point playoff runs (Gretzky, Messier, McDavid).

To me it feels like he is closer to a Mikita than a Forsberg at this point.

 

[daver]

Bump.

Draisaitl finishes the season with a Richard, Hart runner up and a 33 point playoff run. He is 7th all time in 100 point seasons and is one of 4 players with 3 or more 30+ point playoff runs (Gretzky, Messier, McDavid).

To me it feels like he is closer to a Mikita than a Forsberg at this point.

This is a bit misleading.

The first 30 point playoff run was in 1981 (Bossy). Between '81 and '94, sixteen players hit 30 points. Noone hit 30 points in '94/95, the first time since 1981, and then from 1995 to 2019 (25 seasons), only six players hit 30 and none during the DPE and one in the DPE 2.0. Since 2020, five players have hit 30 points (with Makar missing out by only playing 20 games.)

The league currently has the #3 (McDavid), #4 (Draisaitl), #5 (MacKinnon) and # 7 (Rantanen) ranked forwards in highest Playoff PPGs of all-time and the #2 (Bouchard) and #3 (Makar) ranked d-men in highest Playoff PPGs of all-time.

I would take playoff point total and PPGs comparisons with a grain a salt.

 

[Thenameless]

Be better than Stan Mikita, Phil Esposito, Mark Messier, Jaromir Jagr, Evgeni Malkin. High bar. All legends in their own right. But he certainly looks to be that level of guy for his generation.

Yeah, and to a lesser extent Forsberg. That's a pretty nasty bar to have to clear. It definitely implies winning not just one, but at least 2 Cups while riding as a pretty significant shotgun. It's not impossible as he's already got really strong regular season accolades, but if I'm a betting man, no. There's a lot of nice names on that list.

 

[wetcoast]

Yeah, and to a lesser extent Forsberg. That's a pretty nasty bar to have to clear. It definitely implies winning not just one, but at least 2 Cups while riding as a pretty significant shotgun. It's not impossible as he's already got really strong regular season accolades, but if I'm a betting man, no. There's a lot of nice names on that list.

It looks increasingly likely that he isn't goin to win a SC and given the recent contract that the Oilers gave Trent Frederic and their salary cap issues it's going to be hard for them to reload.

I've heard in this section from one poster that McDavid can't reach the top 10 despite his incredible career so far without a SC, which I find arbitrarily ridiculous, what's the "ceiling for Draisaitl with zero SC's, would he still end up behind a guy like Lafleur, despite probably ending up with a much better individual resume all time?

Heck Draisaitl's individual resume is better than Lafleur's right now right?

 

[Thenameless]

Heck Draisaitl's individual resume is better than Lafleur's right now right?

I'm obviously a Lafleur fan, but I don't think it would be considered clouded judgment if a person had Lafleur ahead of Draisaitl. And I don't think it's particularly close. Lafleur was clearly the best of his era (mid to late 70s) and was known to be able to perform under pressure. Draisaitl is at best third or fourth in his era (McDavid, Kucherov, and I prefer MacKinnon but your mileage may vary).

 

[MadLuke]

Heck Draisaitl's individual resume is better than Lafleur's right now right?

I am not sure resume wise if Drai as any argument, being a better player maybe, but resume ?

4 relevant cup, 3x Art Ross, Smythe, 3 pearson, 2x hart, legendary junior career vs 1 Ross/Pearson/Hart

1 retro Richard vs 1 Richard.

 

[Thenameless]

I am not sure resume wise if Drai as any argument, being a better player maybe, but resume ?

I don't even think he's a better player. The 70s Habs were built around an awesome defense and goaltending. Lafleur and Shutt had to do a lot of the heavy lifting on offense. I'm suspecting people would rank them McDavid, Lafleur, Draisaitl, and Shutt last by a mile. Lafleur had to basically be McDavid and Draisaitl sometimes. And when the lights shone brightest, he came through. No way Draisaitl is better than he is.

 

[wetcoast]

I am not sure resume wise if Drai as any argument, being a better player maybe, but resume ?

4 relevant cup, 3x Art Ross, Smythe, 3 pearson, 2x hart, legendary junior career vs 1 Ross/Pearson/Hart

1 retro Richard vs 1 Richard.

I haven't' looked it up specifically at the best 7 years against second in scoring metric but it's obvious non NHLers and a weekend NHL helps Lafleur in that metric but Leon has the longer prime, and better playoff resume.

Put another way Leon has 7 elite season to LaFleur's 6 and that's likely to increase next year and perhaps beyond.

That has to count for something all time.

Lafleur has those 6 years on a dynasty that probably wins several or even all those SC's with an average NHL replacement, those teams were so well constructed.

 

[wetcoast]

I don't even think he's a better player. The 70s Habs were built around an awesome defense and goaltending. Lafleur and Shutt had to do a lot of the heavy lifting on offense. I'm suspecting people would rank them McDavid, Lafleur, Draisaitl, and Shutt last by a mile. Lafleur had to basically be McDavid and Draisaitl sometimes. And when the lights shone brightest, he came through.

No way Draisaitl is better than he is.

This last comment is why I asked and what I suspected, see my other post to see why there is a way and the "there is no way that Leon is a better player" doesn't really stand up to scrutiny at least to me but I suspect others agree with you here.

Maybe if Draisaitl has 2 or 3 more seasons it gets close or are people going to be like Sentinel with the "McDavid can't be top 10 without a SC" argument, in regards to Leon here?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Lafleur was clearly the best of his era (mid to late 70s)

It absolutely definitely is NOT Gilbert Perreault? I'm not so sure...

 

[BenchBrawl]

Perreault's been done dirty on this board forever, including by me, because of my own cowardice in sometimes conforming to group mentality. I am human.

He should be ranked over Trottier, Sakic, Yzerman, Mikita, Esposito, Clarke, and rather easily at that. But he won't.

Best natural talent at center I have seen on tape or live other than Mario Lemieux and Jean Béliveau, in terms of possessing the full array of smoothness, shots, dangles, poise, playmaking etc. Just what a hockey player should be, even if they were better players like the Crosby's and McDavid's, Perreault was more of an ideal perfect form.

 

[Thenameless]

It absolutely definitely is NOT Gilbert Perreault? I'm not so sure...

I love Perreault too, so you'll get no argument from me.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Perreault's been done dirty on this board forever, including by me, because of my own cowardice in sometimes conforming to group mentality. I am human.

Yeah, I think this board has collectively maxed out (or close to it) on the legs of the equation that it knows about...the newspapers, the award voting, any which way you can slice a stat, etc. And it's all a terrific amount of work. Now, I think it's time for the toughest part, it's time to check it...

 

[Thenameless]

Perreault's been done dirty on this board forever, including by me, because of my own cowardice in sometimes conforming to group mentality. I am human.

That's some seriously deep introspection and self awareness. I like it.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Perreault might've been the most beautiful player I saw across all the retro games I watched for the goalie project. I'm definitely a big fan, though I can't get as far with some of the names BenchBrawl listed, apart from Mikita.

Talentwise, Perreault and Frank Mahovlich stood out the most as players underrated by their raw numbers and award voting.

On the thread topic, I'm also a big Draisaitl fan, who has one of the most versatile offensive skillsets ever, and is also underrated by his award voting results due to being on McDavid's team.