What does Draisaitl need to go down as the greatest ever number 2?

[silkyjohnson50]

Some posts and posters are so agenda driven that they don’t deserve a direct response, especially when the trap that they attempt to lay out is so obvious and of course leads right back to the very core of them.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

To elaborate a little bit on this, I like players who stand out a bit stylistically. I've seen Draisaitl make plays this season no other player in the league does, especially on his backhand pass.

I can't remember the opponent, but there was an overtime sequence fairly late this season where Draisaitl set up McDavid on a breakaway with a half-rink spinorama backhand pass (and then after McD blew the scoring chance, Drai set him up with yet another breakaway on which he scored). It almost looked a bit like Lemieux setting up one of his line-mates in the late 80s.

It wasn't this game, but the sequence is similar from this Jets match-up.

You can see as soon as McD notice Draisaitl is in control of the puck, he just explodes out of the zone as if he's 92–93 Selänne.

I'm not sure how anyone can watch these two guys play together and not see that McDavid also benefits pretty strongly from the partnership.

If you're playing with a guy who can throw you passes no one else in the game throws, I'm not sure what else there really is to discuss.

That pass was filthy

 

[Nadal On Clay]

So why can't the Oilers consistently separate Drai from McDavid at ES like Malkin was from Crosby and Forsberg from Sakic?

When have you seen a generational C and, in your opinion, an almost generational C, play on the same line when a team is so lacking in secondary scoring?

An almost generational C, one who is facing the other team's secondary lines and d-pairings, should be able to carry a line offensively. And the Oilers have had plenty of different wingers (and Nugent-Hopkins) to try to create a less top heavy offense. It can't always be that the rest of the forwards suck.

If Drai deserves full credit then perhaps it's McDavid who is not as effective in the playoffs.

McDavid and Draisaitl are money together, moreso than Malkin/Crosby and Sakic/Forsberg were. They compliment each other very well. Separating them doesn’t provide as big as an advantage for them as playing them together. You really don’t need to look further than that.

Offense has not been the Oilers problem in the last couple of years. The defense and goaltending are where the problems/inconsistency are at.

 

[daver]

McDavid and Draisaitl are money together, moreso than Malkin/Crosby and Sakic/Forsberg were. They compliment each other very well. Separating them doesn’t provide as big as an advantage for them as playing them together. You really don’t need to look further than that.

Offense has not been the Oilers problem in the last couple of years. The defense and goaltending are where the problems/inconsistency are at.

Not critiquing them for lack of playoff success but if Draisaitl is going to be compared to the likes of Malkin, Jagr and Esposito then his resume is going to come under a fine comb.

Malkin and Jagr put up similar, if not better numbers, with notably less talented linemates. Esposito's resume should place him higher but he gets dinged for the time spent with Orr.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Not critiquing them for lack of playoff success but if Draisaitl is going to be compared to the likes of Malkin, Jagr and Esposito then his resume is going to come under a fine comb.

Malkin and Jagr put up similar, if not better numbers, with notably less talented linemates. Esposito's resume should place him higher but he gets dinged for the time spent with Orr.

Draisaitl’s playoff resume so far should nullify that kind of conversation for the time being.

 

[North Cole]

To elaborate a little bit on this, I like players who stand out a bit stylistically. I've seen Draisaitl make plays this season no other player in the league does, especially on his backhand pass.

I can't remember the opponent, but there was an overtime sequence fairly late this season where Draisaitl set up McDavid on a breakaway with a half-rink spinorama backhand pass (and then after McD blew the scoring chance, Drai set him up with yet another breakaway on which he scored). It almost looked a bit like Lemieux setting up one of his line-mates in the late 80s.

It wasn't this game, but the sequence is similar from this Jets match-up.

You can see as soon as McD notice Draisaitl is in control of the puck, he just explodes out of the zone as if he's 92–93 Selänne.

I'm not sure how anyone can watch these two guys play together and not see that McDavid also benefits pretty strongly from the partnership.

If you're playing with a guy who can throw you passes no one else in the game throws, I'm not sure what else there really is to discuss.

Believe it was this game you were referencing - McDavid's 60th goal. Wasn't as nice as the Jets OT pass or the insane back hand pass vs the Avs.



Pretty crazy that Drai has 13 goals already, winning the smythe would help but I wonder if the playoff goals record is more a trivia thing for most people.

 

[jigglysquishy]

but I wonder if the playoff goals record is more a trivia thing for most people.

It is trivia.

Reggie Leech (16 GP) shares the record with Kurri (18 GP). Bossy and Gretzky's 17 goal years come in either 18 or 19 GP.

Lemieux had 16 in 15. Beliveau had 12 in 10. Richard had 11 in 10.

If the top 10 was all Gretzky/Hull/Ovechkin/Bossy/Lemieux the record would mean more than the top 5 being mostly beneficiaries of great playmakers.

 

[daver]

Draisaitl’s playoff resume so far should nullify that kind of conversation for the time being.

It would be good to revisit this once the playoffs are over. There likely hasn't been such a prolific duo whose production has been more relied on by a team in NHL history.

I don't think it is unreasonable to try put both of their numbers into context in the same vein as one puts other all-time greats' numbers into context.

For example, Howe's 20 point playoff in 1955 is touted as one of the best of his era along with Beliveau in '56 and Mikita in '62 (to a lesser degree since the Hawks lost). But unlike Mikita and Beliveau, who carried their team in points, Howe had not just a teammate right there with him him in points but was his linemate too.

Should Howe get dinged for having an Art Ross winner and argubly the 3rd best forward of his era right behind him points and in on many of his points?

Or does Howe get the benefit of the doubt and it is presumed he puts up 20 points regardless?

Should Lindsay get credit for having the 3rd best point total of the same era? He doesn't seem to get the amount of credit one would think.

The same can be said for Draisaitl last year. He was one point behind McDavid, arguably the 2nd best playoff run since the lockout. But he also doesn't seem the get the same amount of credit one would think given that McDavid's run is viewed as an all-time great.

McDavid, so far, seems to be the "Draisaitl" of this year's playoffs.

 

[seventieslord]

Reggie Leech (16 GP) shares the record

Hey, I know he wasn't nearly as good as his linemate, but that's harsh

 

[sr edler]

When Leach scored 19 goals (and 24 points) his closest teammate had 16 points, so that would be a bit of an odd example of someone being propped up by a singular playmaker.

He also had a 50-goal season in the league after Clarke had left his playmaking peak years.

Bossy also played with Trottier, and Ovechkin when he scored 15 post-season goals was outscored by his own line-mate by 5 points. So we should probably be a little careful judging players too much based on mere name-clout.

 

[MadLuke]

His prime getting about Lafleur length now, 6 "100pts" season in row

Has this been the "quietest", 6 season in a row run:

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#2 in pts, #2 in goals in the regular season, third in ppg only Kucherov in the better ppg but played less game club and not by much (1.5 vs 1.43).

#2 in playoff ppg, Kucherov-Mack the 2 forward with a clear better playoff record, hart, Ross, yet.... how much does winning vs not do to a legacy and subjective appreciation of a prime (versus Mack and Kucherov in that same period)... McDavid scored so much and the ridiculous eye test to get over it.

 

[VanIslander]

I like the question.
You might not like the answer.

 

[Overrated]

Cups are a team accomplishment, so, yeah, they're irrelevant when evaluating the careers of individual players

What, you didn't know that?

They shouldn't be irrelevant imo but I guess to a certain degree they are because a lot of players are forced to play for shitty teams because of the demented salary cap/draft system. That makes the amount of cups almost entirely based on randomness and luck. Patrick Kane was lucky. McDavid less so. Dahlin extremely unlucky.

 

[Dingo]

more

 

[Doctor Coffin]

Hull - Mikita
Orr - Esposito
Gretzky - Messier
Lemieux - Jagr
Crosby - Malkin
McDavid - Draisaitl


Mikita is the weakest, least-talented player of these 12 star players. He often outscored Hull, but nobody thought he was as good, and he's generally over-rated by most people.

Say WHAT? No, that honor belongs to the subject of this post, by a country mile.

 

[Professor What]

Say WHAT? No, that honor belongs to the subject of this post, by a country mile.

I'm with you. I'd love to see the rationale for Draitsaitl to be ahead of Mikita. I honestly can't think of any argument off the top of my head.

 

[daver]

Had some burritos the other night and maybe had the greatest #2 go down in history.

 

[AndreRoy]

Draisaitl has 46 points in his last 22 playoff games and currently has the 2nd highest playoff PPG ever over Mario. He is also extremally durable unlike Malkin and Forsberg and has more top 5 scoring finishes than either of them. He also has more top 5 finishes than Trottier. Trottier has huge playoffs but Draisaitl is really strong there too. This has got me thinking about Draisaitl's chances of going down as the best number 2 ever.

I think the greatest ever number 2 would be Esposito. Esposito has cups, Harts and Scoring titles while being the clear number 2 to Orr in our eyes. What would it take for Draisaitl to pass him? Esposito has an advantage in that his generational talent was a defenseman which gave Esposito more of a chance for Harts and scoring titles. Draisaitl always being the second best forward on his own team makes it more or less impossible to win individual trophies since he won't lead his team in points. Draisaitl would probably need a dominant goalscoring year while being close in points to win another Hart unless McDavid misses time, but I can see Draisaitl win Conn Smyths if the team wins a cup.

If we would not consider Esposito because he is number 2 to a defenseman I think the best number 2 might be Mikita to Hull. Mikita won 4 Art Rosses, 1 Cup and 2 Harts in the 60s while leading the decade in points yet no one thought he was the best player of the decade, the consensus was that his teammate Hull was the man. Mikita did outperform Hull in regular season more than Draisaitl will outperform McDavid, but Mikita is not as strong in the playoffs as Draisaitl.

Do you think Draisaitl can go down as the best ever number 2?

Until he actually wins something he’s not even the best #2 of his generation. That would be Point, who when the games truly matter is not only one of the greatest goal scorers in NHL postseason history but unlike Draisaitl actually makes an impact at both ends of the ice. Best Drai can hope for is best regular season #2.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

This is a good point but there are some differences.

Mikita was notably lacking, save for one great year, in comparison to Hull in the playoffs.

Messier was never "better" than Wayne, or close to it, while Drai has arguably been better than McDavid in the playoffs in his career, and could possibly lead the Oilers to a Cup while clearly being better than McDavid.

Of course, like Malkin, it can be argued that the mere presence of a GOAT on your team opens up opportunities to face the other team's #2 dmen and forward lines.

Messier did win the CS over Gretzky in their first run.

I can't see Leon passing Messier or Esposito if that what you are asking

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

Draisaitl is one of the most unique players I have ever seen play. His combination of size, strength, and skill is something very few players in the game can match. He's a playmaker at heart (with perhaps the best backhand pass in the game), but when he chooses to can play as an elite finisher. Does anyone know of comparable players in terms of style across history? Allan Mitchell (Lowetide) has compared him stylistically to Beliveau before. I didn't see Beliveau play so I have no real opinion on this comparison.

Some highlights found on the fantastic Hockey PDOcast youtube channel showing off his variety of skills:

 

[Michael Farkas]

He is really unique. The backhand passing advent is really interesting. Brought about, in part, because of his lackluster first-step quickness (which has improved since his draft year, certainly). I don't think Beliveau is a match because Beliveau was a much better skater and he was much more careful with the puck (as flawed of a stat as it is, Draisaitl leads the league in giveaways over the last five seasons...he has 10% (!) more than 2nd place - that's the dangers of using highlight packs to scout, he looks incredible at it...and he is, to a degree - certainly not the best in the game at them, but I won't knock him too much for trying. That said, I think we've all seen Leon No-TrySaitl games, and these whirling backhand plays have prompted their share of odd-man rushes against too).

You always like players that are balanced attackers as opposed to just having an "A" game and nothing else...so he deserves credit for just how prolific of a finisher he became (as noted by Klefbom above, he's a playmaker at heart...that's right). I really like the concept of player "regens" ("re-generation" if that helps the non-native English speakers any)...by that I mean, a player mold that we were robbed of in the past, but we get a "second chance" at that player in a different generation. Or maybe we get a bit better version of.

For me, Leon Draisaitl is our second chance at Eric Daze. Daze was a 6'5" or 6'6" player who played all three forward positions at various times. Not a great skater, but capable for his size. Balanced attacker that could play on his backhand, make "finishing" passes, had a nasty shot, and really one of the league's best one-timers when he could stay on the ice. Really slick hands in space and the reach and puck control to complete the move. He also holds his hands closer together up high on the stick like Drai does too...has the size, but isn't a killer.

Of course, Daze routinely had an anvil fall on him every time he left his apartment...so we didn't get a lot of him. The one time that he played 82 games, he led the Hawks in goals and points (despite being 5th among team forwards in ice time), and he finished 7th in the NHL in goals.

It's not like he was in a great situation either. The '96 to '04 Hawks were among the worst non-expansion (early 90's and early 00's) teams in the NHL.

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

He is really unique. The backhand passing advent is really interesting. Brought about, in part, because of his lackluster first-step quickness (which has improved since his draft year, certainly). I don't think Beliveau is a match because Beliveau was a much better skater and he was much more careful with the puck (as flawed of a stat as it is, Draisaitl leads the league in giveaways over the last five seasons...he has 10% (!) more than 2nd place - that's the dangers of using highlight packs to scout, he looks incredible at it...and he is, to a degree - certainly not the best in the game at them, but I won't knock him too much for trying. That said, I think we've all seen Leon No-TrySaitl games, and these whirling backhand plays have prompted their share of odd-man rushes against too).

You always like players that are balanced attackers as opposed to just having an "A" game and nothing else...so he deserves credit for just how prolific of a finisher he became (as noted by Klefbom above, he's a playmaker at heart...that's right). I really like the concept of player "regens" ("re-generation" if that helps the non-native English speakers any)...by that I mean, a player mold that we were robbed of in the past, but we get a "second chance" at that player in a different generation. Or maybe we get a bit better version of.

For me, Leon Draisaitl is our second chance at Eric Daze. Daze was a 6'5" or 6'6" player who played all three forward positions at various times. Not a great skater, but capable for his size. Balanced attacker that could play on his backhand, make "finishing" passes, had a nasty shot, and really one of the league's best one-timers when he could stay on the ice. Really slick hands in space and the reach and puck control to complete the move. He also holds his hands closer together up high on the stick like Drai does too...has the size, but isn't a killer.

Of course, Daze routinely had an anvil fall on him every time he left his apartment...so we didn't get a lot of him. The one time that he played 82 games, he led the Hawks in goals and points (despite being 5th among team forwards in ice time), and he finished 7th in the NHL in goals.

It's not like he was in a great situation either. The '96 to '04 Hawks were among the worst non-expansion (early 90's and early 00's) teams in the NHL.

Thanks for a detailed response. I agree a highlight pack is not a great way to truly show off a players complete game. Unfortunately youtube video compilations are almost always of the best moments a player has.

As to giveaways, I don't think they reflect very much other than a player having the puck in the attacking zone more often. True Drai leads the league in giveaways by a wide margin since 2018-19, but by giveaways/60 he's 8th at 3.30. His takeaways are 13th at 2.60 as well fwiw.

As to the speed thing I think its overblown. NHL edge rates him as a 90+ percentile skater in terms of speed, speed bursts, and skating distance. I think he has a skating stride that looks slower than it is. Funnily enough his shot speed is the weakest aspect of his game, being below the 50th percentile in most categories. I think he overcomes having a weaker shot with having a very quick release, deadly accuracy, and being very intelligent with when to shoot and when to pass.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I agree a highlight pack is not a great way to truly show off a players complete game. Unfortunately youtube video compilations are almost always of the best moments a player has.

Sorry, that wasn't really directed at you personally. Coming to bat with video is always encouraged by me. That was more of a general statement because I see it so often with amateur scouting. Hell, you even see it here...it'll be a Mario Lemieux highlight goals tape and people will go, "wow, I could have played goal in 1993 based on that..." well...it's a 10 minute video where no saves are made. Of course it looks bad for goalies haha.

It's fine for a shorthand situation like this. You were highlighting a specific skill, I think that's very valid.

I agree to an extent...players with the puck tend to give it away more than players that don't have it. I personally find Draisaitl to be among the more "careless" stars in the league when it comes to giveaways, so that's why I mentioned it. I think that's a contrast to Beliveau. But I also don't find giveaways to be terribly telling themselves. I also think there's a creativity and, as I call it, "technical experimentation" factor that needs to be incorporated there. Not all giveaways are created equal.

That's interesting that the tracking stats show what they do with skating and shooting. I think his shooting accuracy is a really good point with him. The angles that can he can score from with accuracy and in combination with that release is physically unique in the league. It'd be interesting to look at his hand placement based on where he is on the ice and where the puck is in relation to his body when it enters his "puck control window". Some players that are on the stiffer side physically/athletically, that might have tighter hips or have trouble getting off their center line, I bet they could learn a lot from him and his hand placement (Kirby Dach, perhaps).

Like you said, selective shooter (and a primary playmaker)...so you end up in a really team-beneficial situation with him production wise because he's not a volume shooter but he scores like one...last 6 seasons: 2nd in the NHL in goals, 14th in shots on goal, 13th in missed shots).

I don't really know how the NHL calculates "speed burst", like at what point in the skating sequence does a "burst" qualify. Like with many taller players that have the ability to get extension into their stride (which is another thing Drai has improved upon considerably since his DY), they can reach some really nifty top speeds, even if they aren't traditionally considered fast skaters. I don't dive into too much of the NHL edge stuff, so I'm not sure if their methodology or those definitions are out there...but that'd be interesting to evaluate with him as well.

 

[Staniowski]

Say WHAT? No, that honor belongs to the subject of this post, by a country mile.

I'm with you. I'd love to see the rationale for Draitsaitl to be ahead of Mikita. I honestly can't think of any argument off the top of my head.

Most people now haven't seen Mikita play much, so there's a general lack of knowledge about his game, his reputation being based on his four scoring titles.

Mikita was a very good and skilled player but he was not in the same class as guys like MacKinnon, Kucherov, or Matthews today, or players like Malkin, Forsberg or Fedorov.

The overrating of Mikita stems from the general lack of talent in the League during his era. His skills made him fairly unique during the '60s, and that's why he was a big scorer. But skilled players like him became more common, especially by the 1980s.

Mikita wouldn't win any scoring titles if he were a decade younger, or any time subsequent to that.

 

[Despote]

Most people now haven't seen Mikita play much, so there's a general lack of knowledge about his game, his reputation being based on his four scoring titles.

Mikita was a very good and skilled player but he was not in the same class as guys like MacKinnon, Kucherov, or Matthews today, or players like Malkin, Forsberg or Fedorov.

The overrating of Mikita stems from the general lack of talent in the League during his era. His skills made him fairly unique during the '60s, and that's why he was a big scorer. But skilled players like him became more common, especially by the 1980s.

Mikita wouldn't win any scoring titles if he were a decade younger, or any time subsequent to that.

Even if that is true, there's something to be said of being ahead of your time.