What do you think of Yzerman these days?

[Frk It]

Assuming nobody claims Walman, which is entirely possible because of a tight cap landscape across the entire NHL, Detroit has to pay his full salary in the AHL if he clears. What is the upside to that? We are still stuck paying him and it's entirely possible he never returns to form and turns into an insanely expensive #5/6/7D

Just get rid of him altogether like they did. If it had to cost a 53rd overall pick to attach with a polarizing defenseman left at $3.4M/2 years is more than fine with me

Walman is just another 'guy'. Not an important piece, despite our weak defense situation. Other moves can be made, and likely still will be made to address that

You can try to tell me rushing to get rid of him at the cost of a 2nd round pick when we don’t even know if we’ll need that cap space is a smart move, but I probably won’t see it that way.

I also don’t buy that all of a sudden we think he is a terrible hockey player (that no one would want). I won’t be surprised if he looks decent for SJ next year with more of an appropriate usage. In which case the trade will look even more dumb.

 

[lilidk]

Just changed my vote to just ok. Even some successful signing are questionable. What is the point to bring Kane if there's no prospects who learn from him. We already overcrowded at defense and he is bringing more third pair d.
Yzerman is picking other teams junk, overpay and hoping they will change this franchise

 

[saska sault]

Just changed my vote to just ok. Even some successful signing are questionable. What is the point to bring Kane if there's no prospects who learn from him. We already overcrowded at defense and he is bringing more third pair d.
Yzerman is picking other teams junk, overpay and hoping they will change this franchise

I can personally agree on some of it with the Petry, Holl, Chiarot (although I lowkey liked Ben this year) and the lack of youngsters but... Kane and Tarasenko aren't junk, nor are Compher and Copp (although fairly unlikeable by many). Raymond, Debrincat, Larkin, Berg and youngsters coming up this year and next will benefit from those guys. If it helps improves the point total again for a 6th straight year and we improve. Job well done IMO. Kids need someone to learn from and not be giving a job just because we need to get younger. We need to get better, and the youth will poke its way through if they become good enough and ready.

 

[lilidk]

I can personally agree on some of it with the Petry, Holl, Chiarot (although I lowkey liked Ben this year) and the lack of youngsters but... Kane and Tarasenko aren't junk, nor are Compher and Copp (although fairly unlikeable by many). Raymond, Debrincat, Larkin, Berg and youngsters coming up this year and next will benefit from those guys. If it helps improves the point total again for a 6th straight year and we improve. Job well done IMO. Kids need someone to learn from and not be giving a job just because we need to get younger. We need to get better, and the youth will poke its way through if they become good enough and ready.

Gustafson is junk who got double paid , Trouba 8 million junk . Tarasenko and Kane both on their last leg , both don't play defense, so someone has to do it for them. Both could get injured any moment.
If you look at our defense , only Seider and maybe Maatta Have trading value.

 

[saska sault]

Gustafson is junk who got double paid , Trouba 8 million junk . Tarasenko and Kane both on their last leg , both don't play defense, so someone has to do it for them. Both could get injured any moment.
If you look at our defense , only Seider and maybe Maatta Have trading value.

I missed the part where we pay Trouba 8 million. Gustaffson is 2 million, which is whatever. If he puts up 30 points again, it's a bargain.

Not saying those guys don't have warts, but I wouldn't label them all as junk. Holl is junk, Czarnik is junk, etc. to me.

Kane is far from junk. Could care less about his defense and Tarasenko is multiple steps up from Perron IMO.

 

[Retire91]

I can't believe people are complaining about filler signings on a rebuilding team. The point is not talent or even cap space. The point is term. All these players and contracts fall away as the prospects start gaining their roster spots.

 

[lilidk]

I missed the part where we pay Trouba 8 million. Gustaffson is 2 million, which is whatever. If he puts up 30 points again, it's a bargain.

Not saying those guys don't have warts, but I wouldn't label them all as junk. Holl is junk, Czarnik is junk, etc. to me.

Kane is far from junk. Could care less about his defense and Tarasenko is multiple steps up from Perron IMO.

Czarnik is not junk , very good AHLer, undersized , but skilled. Trouba wasn't traded because he said no to trade. We got lucky with Kane last season, can we get the same next season I don't know, his new contact brings some questions

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I can't believe people are complaining about filler signings on a rebuilding team. The point is not talent or even cap space. The point is term. All these players and contracts fall away as the prospects start gaining their roster spots.

Because we're tired of filler signings.

Sign good players and the team will get better. Keep signing filler players and it's going to stay the same or get worse.

 

[The Zermanator]

So wait and waive him like they did with Vrana. Doing what we did makes 0 sense.

...with the information we have available to us.

Should probably tack that on to your last sentence.

 

[saska sault]

Czarnik is not junk , very good AHLer, undersized , but skilled. Trouba wasn't traded because he said no to trade. We got lucky with Kane last season, can we get the same next season I don't know, his new contact brings some questions

Czarnik played over 60 games, being a good AHLer is fine but he still wasn't a positive anywhere but the energy department. Have a hard time saying Kane and Tarasenko are junk signings, and Czarnik is fine. Completely different roles but the more talent the better IMO.
Kane isn't on his last legs either, just a new hip.

I don't believe Trouba was ever coming here on full salary, if at all. Considering there is almost never an information leak from the Wings front office. He may have wanted Detroit if he was moved, but those are not similar. More than likely it was the Rangers putting pressure on a guy to feel unwanted and clear his salary.

The strategy this year could backfire, think there is more moves made before training camp besides Mo and Ray... but I'm cautiously optimistic for this year compared to last season and prior.

 

[Retire91]

Because we're tired of filler signings.

Sign good players and the team will get better. Keep signing filler players and it's going to stay the same or get worse.

It's called timing

Can't just sign a bunch of talent you need the ELC's to fill out the team for a run. Or you just tread water and decline just like a Holland rinse and repeat.

Which signings did we miss out on out of curiosity. Serious question.

 

[Retire91]

Here are the players I came up with some may be missing. Which players were an absolute wiff that signed with new teams that should have been a wing?

Alex Killorn: Signed a four-year contract with the Anaheim Ducks after leaving the Tampa Bay Lightning.
Ryan Graves: Signed a six-year deal with the Pittsburgh Penguins, leaving the New Jersey Devils.
Jonathan Drouin: Signed with the Colorado Avalanche after playing with the Montreal Canadiens.
Matt Duchene: Signed a one-year contract with the Dallas Stars after being bought out by the Nashville Predators.
Vladimir Tarasenko: Signed a one-year contract with the Ottawa Senators after finishing the previous season with the New York Rangers.
Patrick Kane: Signed a one-year deal with the Detroit Red Wings after finishing the previous season with the New York Rangers.
Johnny Gaudreau: Signed a seven-year contract with the Columbus Blue Jackets after leaving the Calgary Flames.
Nazem Kadri: Signed a seven-year deal with the Calgary Flames, moving from the Colorado Avalanche.
John Klingberg: Signed a one-year contract with the Anaheim Ducks after leaving the Dallas Stars.
Claude Giroux: Signed a three-year deal with the Ottawa Senators after playing with the Florida Panthers.
Darcy Kuemper: Signed a five-year contract with the Washington Capitals after winning the Stanley Cup with the Colorado Avalanche.
Dougie Hamilton: Signed a seven-year contract with the New Jersey Devils after leaving the Carolina Hurricanes.
Phillip Danault: Signed a six-year deal with the Los Angeles Kings, moving from the Montreal Canadiens.
Blake Coleman: Signed a six-year contract with the Calgary Flames after leaving the Tampa Bay Lightning.
David Savard: Signed a four-year deal with the Montreal Canadiens after playing with the Tampa Bay Lightning.
Taylor Hall: Signed a one-year deal with the Buffalo Sabres after leaving the Arizona Coyotes.
Alex Pietrangelo: Signed a seven-year contract with the Vegas Golden Knights, leaving the St. Louis Blues.
Jacob Markstrom: Signed a six-year deal with the Calgary Flames after leaving the Vancouver Canucks.
Tyson Barrie: Signed a one-year contract with the Edmonton Oilers after leaving the Toronto Maple Leafs.
T.J. Brodie: Signed a four-year deal with the Toronto Maple Leafs after leaving the Calgary Flames.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Here are the players I came up with some may be missing. Which players were an absolute wiff that signed with new teams that should have been a wing?

Alex Killorn: Signed a four-year contract with the Anaheim Ducks after leaving the Tampa Bay Lightning.
Ryan Graves: Signed a six-year deal with the Pittsburgh Penguins, leaving the New Jersey Devils.
Jonathan Drouin: Signed with the Colorado Avalanche after playing with the Montreal Canadiens.
Matt Duchene: Signed a one-year contract with the Dallas Stars after being bought out by the Nashville Predators.
Vladimir Tarasenko: Signed a one-year contract with the Ottawa Senators after finishing the previous season with the New York Rangers.
Patrick Kane: Signed a one-year deal with the Detroit Red Wings after finishing the previous season with the New York Rangers.
Johnny Gaudreau: Signed a seven-year contract with the Columbus Blue Jackets after leaving the Calgary Flames.
Nazem Kadri: Signed a seven-year deal with the Calgary Flames, moving from the Colorado Avalanche.
John Klingberg: Signed a one-year contract with the Anaheim Ducks after leaving the Dallas Stars.
Claude Giroux: Signed a three-year deal with the Ottawa Senators after playing with the Florida Panthers.
Darcy Kuemper: Signed a five-year contract with the Washington Capitals after winning the Stanley Cup with the Colorado Avalanche.
Dougie Hamilton: Signed a seven-year contract with the New Jersey Devils after leaving the Carolina Hurricanes.
Phillip Danault: Signed a six-year deal with the Los Angeles Kings, moving from the Montreal Canadiens.
Blake Coleman: Signed a six-year contract with the Calgary Flames after leaving the Tampa Bay Lightning.
David Savard: Signed a four-year deal with the Montreal Canadiens after playing with the Tampa Bay Lightning.
Taylor Hall: Signed a one-year deal with the Buffalo Sabres after leaving the Arizona Coyotes.
Alex Pietrangelo: Signed a seven-year contract with the Vegas Golden Knights, leaving the St. Louis Blues.
Jacob Markstrom: Signed a six-year deal with the Calgary Flames after leaving the Vancouver Canucks.
Tyson Barrie: Signed a one-year contract with the Edmonton Oilers after leaving the Toronto Maple Leafs.
T.J. Brodie: Signed a four-year deal with the Toronto Maple Leafs after leaving the Calgary Flames.

You can't sign them all.

The three that I count as wiffs because they're 100% Yzerman types and we had the space at the time are Savard, Coleman and Danault. They might make a marginal difference in 2022 and 2023 (10th to 12th worst instead of 8th and 9th worst) but the Wings are very comfortably a playoff team in 2024 with them instead of Petry/Holl, Fabbri and Copp.

 

[norrisnick]

You can't sign them all.

The three that I count as wiffs because they're 100% Yzerman types and we had the space at the time are Savard, Coleman and Danault. They might make a marginal difference in 2022 and 2023 (10th to 12th worst instead of 8th and 9th worst) but the Wings are very comfortably a playoff team in 2024 with them instead of Petry/Holl, Fabbri and Copp.

I think you are quite literally the only person to suggest Yzerman should have dug into free agency earlier rather than later. Yzerman signed nothing of significance in the summer of 2021. Reeks of hindsight to suggest he would/should have jumped on these guys.

 

[Frk It]

...with the information we have available to us.

Should probably tack that on to your last sentence.

Let’s just keep manufacturing narratives to try to make this trade not look like a dumb deal.

All the other theories have already been debunked.

Even if Walman was doing heinous things off ice, there was no reason we needed to move him when we did with what it cost to make it happen.

If you would have told me a month or two ago we could package a 2nd to get rid of a player and their contract, there are line 3-4 players I would have picked before Walman.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I think you are quite literally the only person to suggest Yzerman should have dug into free agency earlier rather than later. Yzerman signed nothing of significance in the summer of 2021. Reeks of hindsight to suggest he would/should have jumped on these guys.

And you're probably right. The drum I was pounding then as I am now is that 2021 was a solid free agency year and the next 2-3 years would be ok to mediocre, and I was right. Barkov didn't go to free agency. Tkachuk didn't go. Malkin was never going to leave Shitsburgh. All the big names wings fans were screaming for didn't end up going UFA just as I suspected they wouldn't. You didn't need a crystal ball to foresee that the last few offseasons.

Let’s just keep manufacturing narratives to try to make this trade not look like a dumb deal.

All the other theories have already been debunked.

Even if Walman was doing heinous things off ice, there was no reason we needed to move him when we did with what it cost to make it happen.

If you would have told me a month or two ago we could package a 2nd to get rid of a player and their contract, there are line 3-4 players I would have picked before Walman.

Maybe there's some surveillance footage of Walman swordfighting with Al Sobotka that we weren't aware of and it just came to Yzerman's attention?

 

[Our Lady Peace]

I find it hard to believe that just because there are free agents of Detroit's desire to be signed, means that Yzerman dropped the ball on signing them and it's entirely his fault

Maybe they just... Don't want to play in Detroit? They ARE unrestricted free agents after all

 

[SirloinUB]

You can try to tell me rushing to get rid of him at the cost of a 2nd round pick when we don’t even know if we’ll need that cap space is a smart move, but I probably won’t see it that way.

I also don’t buy that all of a sudden we think he is a terrible hockey player (that no one would want). I won’t be surprised if he looks decent for SJ next year with more of an appropriate usage. In which case the trade will look even more dumb.

Part of the price was getting a jump on the market. Cap space is a finite resource in the NHL. If you wait and other teams pick up cap dumps, sign other players, etc. there is less of that finite resource available. At that point the cost to dump a contract goes up.

There is something to be said about jumping to the front of the line (so to speak), if you know you are dumping a player/contract anyway.



I also don't believe this was an impulse move. Yzerman didn't wake up in the middle of the night to an epiphany that he needs to unload Walman. This was brewing for a while evident by Walman being scratched down the stretch drive. Yzerman would have canvased the league for other options. Evidently, Walman simply had drastically lower value across the league than we fans perceived. It sucks but it is what it is.

 

[norrisnick]

I find it hard to believe that just because there are free agents of Detroit's desire to be signed, means that Yzerman dropped the ball on signing them and it's entirely his fault

Maybe they just... Don't want to play in Detroit? They ARE unrestricted free agents after all

Of the three mentioned... Savard when to his home province, Danault went to sunny SoCal after being in Canada and Coleman, from Texas, went to Canada's Texas.

 

[norrisnick]

And you're probably right. The drum I was pounding then as I am now is that 2021 was a solid free agency year and the next 2-3 years would be ok to mediocre, and I was right. Barkov didn't go to free agency. Tkachuk didn't go. Malkin was never going to leave Shitsburgh. All the big names wings fans were screaming for didn't end up going UFA just as I suspected they wouldn't. You didn't need a crystal ball to foresee that the last few offseasons.

I mean, there's like a grand total of 5-10 UFA signings that were legitimately impactful, in a positive way, there's been a bunch that hurt, for a franchise over the last 15 years. It's almost all filler every summer.

 

[Retire91]

Let’s just keep manufacturing narratives to try to make this trade not look like a dumb deal.

All the other theories have already been debunked.

Even if Walman was doing heinous things off ice, there was no reason we needed to move him when we did with what it cost to make it happen.

If you would have told me a month or two ago we could package a 2nd to get rid of a player and their contract, there are line 3-4 players I would have picked before Walman.

There are trades I never let go of like the Jarncroc trade so I get it. but I am legit curious are their some discussion threads where it was debunked? That trade smelled like the Bowman Ciccarelli trade where the player was jettisoned in a way that sent a message. I agree these are not assets we can afford to just toss though.

 

[The Zermanator]

Let’s just keep manufacturing narratives to try to make this trade not look like a dumb deal.

All the other theories have already been debunked.

Even if Walman was doing heinous things off ice, there was no reason we needed to move him when we did with what it cost to make it happen.

If you would have told me a month or two ago we could package a 2nd to get rid of a player and their contract, there are line 3-4 players I would have picked before Walman.

1) What other teams thought of Walman, and what they were willing to pay, or be paid, to take him.
2) What Yzerman thought of Walman and his role and impact on the team, based on the inside knowledge he has. That could be due to some dramatic incident like some rumours suggested, or it could just be that Yzerman felt the team would be better without him on it.
3) The details of whatever trade for Trouba was rumoured to be close, and the possible need for cap space on short notice as a result.
4) Whatever other move might have been in consideration in the days surrounding the draft and free agency, and how the Walman trade figured into that. There's always a ton of moving parts at that time of year.
5) What will become of Gibson and Kiiskinen, since that 2nd round pick we 'lost' came from that trade in the first place.

There's a handful of unknowns off the top of my head right there, I'm sure I could think of others if I took some time. So if you're going to sit there and pretend like 'being dumb' was the driving force behind that trade, then who is manufacturing narratives exactly?

Walman wasn't exactly a world-beater here. He had long stretches of mediocrity and sometimes downright counter-productive play. And when you have a guy taking games off and appearing unbothered by poor play (as his social media showed), there are going to be questions about commitment to the team's success. Yzerman doesn't seem to have any interest in players who aren't bought in, and that's a good thing IMO. In the end, Walman is off the team and all it cost was a prospect swap, since we would have never had that 2nd without that swap. And the jury is still out on those two, Kiiskinen could easily become the better player in the end. So all this belly-aching over such a nothingburger is really just more puzzling than anything.

 

[Frk It]

There are trades I never let go of like the Jarncroc trade so I get it. but I am legit curious are their some discussion threads where it was debunked? That trade smelled like the Bowman Ciccarelli trade where the player was jettisoned in a way that sent a message. I agree these are not assets we can afford to just toss though.

I am talking about people on this board coming up with conspiracies/speculating on things to make this trade look better.

Like oh we probably have a pick swap agreed to with San Jose…

Or oh we’re probably doing this because we have a big time free agent in the bag and need the cap…

That kind of stuff, that all ended up not happening.

 

[Frk It]

1) What other teams thought of Walman, and what they were willing to pay, or be paid, to take him.
2) What Yzerman thought of Walman and his role and impact on the team, based on the inside knowledge he has. That could be due to some dramatic incident like some rumours suggested, or it could just be that Yzerman felt the team would be better without him on it.
3) The details of whatever trade for Trouba was rumoured to be close, and the possible need for cap space on short notice as a result.
4) Whatever other move might have been in consideration in the days surrounding the draft and free agency, and how the Walman trade figured into that. There's always a ton of moving parts at that time of year.
5) What will become of Gibson and Kiiskinen, since that 2nd round pick we 'lost' came from that trade in the first place.

There's a handful of unknowns off the top of my head right there, I'm sure I could think of others if I took some time. So if you're going to sit there and pretend like 'being dumb' was the driving force behind that trade, then who is manufacturing narratives exactly?

Walman wasn't exactly a world-beater here. He had long stretches of mediocrity and sometimes downright counter-productive play. And when you have a guy taking games off and appearing unbothered by poor play (as his social media showed), there are going to be questions about commitment to the team's success. Yzerman doesn't seem to have any interest in players who aren't bought in, and that's a good thing IMO. In the end, Walman is off the team and all it cost was a prospect swap, since we would have never had that 2nd without that swap. And the jury is still out on those two, Kiiskinen could easily become the better player in the end. So all this belly-aching over such a nothingburger is really just more puzzling than anything.

I don’t expect Yzerman to be infallible. Smart people do dumb things sometimes. As I’ve said in this thread, I think Yzerman is overall doing a good job and I wouldn’t replace him if I had the choice.

I just think y’all are doing some wild shit to make excuses for that Walman trade, like nothing Yzerman does could possibly be wrong.

I mean the dude has lit a 2nd round pick on fire before when he drafted Clelveland, so not like it’d be the first time.

 

[Frk It]

Part of the price was getting a jump on the market. Cap space is a finite resource in the NHL. If you wait and other teams pick up cap dumps, sign other players, etc. there is less of that finite resource available. At that point the cost to dump a contract goes up.

There is something to be said about jumping to the front of the line (so to speak), if you know you are dumping a player/contract anyway

I also don't believe this was an impulse move. Yzerman didn't wake up in the middle of the night to an epiphany that he needs to unload Walman. This was brewing for a while evident by Walman being scratched down the stretch drive. Yzerman would have canvased the league for other options. Evidently, Walman simply had drastically lower value across the league than we fans perceived. It sucks but it is what it is.

You would have me believe there were no other ways we could have freed up cap? Possibly moves that didn’t cost us a 2nd - Like another Fabbri and a 4th type move?

You can say it wasn’t an impulse move, but his actions sure as hell seemed more along the lines of “I gotta get rid of this guy now, screw the cost”