Player Discussion What do we have in J.T. Miller?

[BoHorvat 53]

I expect this post to get a lot of likes.

I find it ironic that 5 months ago is the past and it shouldn’t be discussed anymore....but Gillis still gets brought up near daily and he got fired when my now middle schooler was in grade 1.

J.T. Miller is a good player having a good start. His cost to acquire will be discussed here for the length of his tenure here.

J.T. Miller can have 4 straight 65 point seasons and if the Canucks don’t contend it’ll all be a waste, not sure why that’s so hard to grasp.

His production won’t be what this deal is judged on. If they have no success getting deep in the playoffs in any of the 4 years it’s a waste and we know that success will be hard to come by because of the GM’s cap allocations.

It should be a fun game vs the Flyers. Anyone watch that behind the glass show yet? Makes me miss aV big time.

Meh, the current regime's goal is to make the playoffs. What comes after, no one knows. Baby steps though...

 

[Canucks1096]

I am not happy with giving up a first round pick, especially where the team is at in the development curve and because Tampa had a real cap problem, it seems that deal could have been made without the first rounder but we know how bad Benning is at negotiating.

However, it is pretty clear Miller is a quality player with size and skill, who might be in for a big season so might not be a bad idea to enjoy it and not harp on the pick for 82 games.

Yes the deal might of been made without a 1st rounder. However It might of been made with another team

 

[Cogburn]

It's 2021. The Canucks have won the draft lottery! But oh no, we missed the playoffs in 2020, so it's Tampa Bay's pick!

Benning is still running this team because he's like a bad rash, in that you can't be rid of him.

We all think this pick, assuming we win the lottery, will be a generational talent. Our last first overall picks have been Hughes, Dahlin, Hischier, Matthews, McDavid, Ekblad, MacKinnon, Yakupov, Nugent-Hopkins and Hall. Of those, one is generational, two you could call elite, one is an out right bust, and two are maybe slightly better than Miller. Dahlin and Hughes are too soon to call. Of those ten, two (Matthews and MacKinnon) have been contributors to changing their teams fortunes.

Our record with first round draft picks under Benning is 3 for 7, pass /fail on being a 50+ point contributor, or equivalent on D, with one too early to call. Virtanen, McCann, Boeser, Juolevi, Pettersson, Hughes and Podkolzin. 0 for 6 on moving up even a spot too.

Before the idiot took over, Our first round picks were Shinkaruk, Horvat, Gaunce, Jensen, Gaunce, Schroeder, Hodgson, White, Grabner, Bourdon, Schneider, Kesler, Umberger, Smith, Sedins. That's for 6 for 16, counting Bourdon.

A less than fifty percent chance of drafting a better player, 10/23 if we count Pod. Those snapping at people for being hopeful Miller does well and that the team puts something together need to have a long, hard look in the mirror, as they are being over the top optimistic about our drafting history and odds.

 

[Hoghandler]

The reason the trade was poor was due to the possibility of it being the worst trade in team history. As unlikely as that is, it is still possible. You don't want to make trades with that level of downside risk. Not to mention the PTSD we would have to deal with if they lose out on Luke Hughes. But this is a 'what do we have in JT miller' thread. The trade talk should stay in the JT Miller trade thread.

I am starting to wonder if Miller will be able to match Horvat point for point over the next few years. He's looked that good, as well as shown shift to shift consistency to make that a legitimate question. Defensively, who is better between the two? Interesting comparison for a couple big bodies that skate well.

 

[F A N]

You mean that time in November 2001, when they made the playoffs the previous season?

I mean the time when they were a few games below .500 after 15+ games.

 

[Melvin]

It's 2021. The Canucks have won the draft lottery! But oh no, we missed the playoffs in 2020, so it's Tampa Bay's pick!

Benning is still running this team because he's like a bad rash, in that you can't be rid of him.

We all think this pick, assuming we win the lottery, will be a generational talent. Our last first overall picks have been Hughes, Dahlin, Hischier, Matthews, McDavid, Ekblad, MacKinnon, Yakupov, Nugent-Hopkins and Hall. Of those, one is generational, two you could call elite, one is an out right bust, and two are maybe slightly better than Miller. Dahlin and Hughes are too soon to call. Of those ten, two (Matthews and MacKinnon) have been contributors to changing their teams fortunes.

Our record with first round draft picks under Benning is 3 for 7, pass /fail on being a 50+ point contributor, or equivalent on D, with one too early to call. Virtanen, McCann, Boeser, Juolevi, Pettersson, Hughes and Podkolzin. 0 for 6 on moving up even a spot too.

Before the idiot took over, Our first round picks were Shinkaruk, Horvat, Gaunce, Jensen, Gaunce, Schroeder, Hodgson, White, Grabner, Bourdon, Schneider, Kesler, Umberger, Smith, Sedins. That's for 6 for 16, counting Bourdon.

A less than fifty percent chance of drafting a better player, 10/23 if we count Pod. Those snapping at people for being hopeful Miller does well and that the team puts something together need to have a long, hard look in the mirror, as they are being over the top optimistic about our drafting history and odds.

I generally think it was a bad trade but agree with this. People over value first round picks and undervalue good contracts. It's not just JT Miller, but that fact that he's signed to a good deal for three years makes him a quality asset, basically the first one Benning has found.

He shouldn't have cost a first round pick but I think the disastrous evaluation of the trade is overblown.

 

[Love]

Miller has been awesome. He needs to stay with EP/Boeser because those two don’t look great at the moment. Pearson looks great on the Horvat line anyway.

 

[wetcoast]

Yes the deal might of been made without a 1st rounder. However It might of been made with another team

Then we should have passed on him.

Miller is a fine player and perhaps a missing piece for a SC contender but we over paid and looking at how the team has played in their first 4 games, it looks like they are going to roll the dice and give TB their first next year as the playoffs are already slipping away.

The problem with the Canucks is that they have Levio, Pearson and an invisible Ferland in their top 6 plans, although right now Ferland isn't playing there.

Aslo for 6 million a year (for a 6 year term) Myers just doesn't bring enough offense and his defense is adequate but a waste of cap space.

 

[Canucko]

Then we should have passed on him.

Miller is a fine player and perhaps a missing piece for a SC contender but we over paid and looking at how the team has played in their first 4 games, it looks like they are going to roll the dice and give TB their first next year as the playoffs are already slipping away.

The problem with the Canucks is that they have Levio, Pearson and an invisible Ferland in their top 6 plans, although right now Ferland isn't playing there.

Aslo for 6 million a year (for a 6 year term) Myers just doesn't bring enough offense and his defense is adequate but a waste of cap space.

The playoffs are already slipping away? It’s 4 freaking games into the season...

 

[wetcoast]

The playoffs are already slipping away? It’s 4 freaking games into the season...

Have you seen the Canucks play this season, basically only the Kings game did they have a solid effort.

They had a jet lagged team in Philly at home last night and they got extremely lucky to even get a single point nevermind 2.

4 of their next 5 games are on the road and if they can't produce against Detroit (at home), NJ, NYR and Detroit again then the hole will become too big to climb out of.

they simply need to play much better than they have shown so far to even be in the playoff race.

Dallas, San Jose, Arizona and the Black Hawks all won't sleep their way through the season.

 

[Canucko]

Have you seen the Canucks play this season, basically only the Kings game did they have a solid effort.

They had a jet lagged team in Philly at home last night and they got extremely lucky to even get a single point nevermind 2.

4 of their next 5 games are on the road and if they can't produce against Detroit (at home), NJ, NYR and Detroit again then the hole will become too big to climb out of.

they simply need to play much better than they have shown so far to even be in the playoff race.

Dallas, San Jose, Arizona and the Black Hawks all won't sleep their way through the season.

Comedy gold.

 

[wetcoast]

Comedy gold.

If Markstrom had been merely average in net they would be 1-3, heck for that goalpost by Sanheim in the 3rd they would still be 1-3, what Canucks team are you watching?

 

[Diversification]

If Markstrom had been merely average in net they would be 1-3, heck for that goalpost by Sanheim in the 3rd they would still be 1-3, what Canucks team are you watching?

Last night was a hard fought win. Benn gets hit with a marginal call and the Flyers capitalized on the PP. It wasn't a huge fluke that they won.

Also, 4 games in there's really nothing to say about the playoffs. The season is long and we're going to catch teams on good nights and off nights. Was happy with the fight this team showed in response to Philly's big push in the third.

Back on topic: Miller is a nice addition to our top 6. He's still trying to figure out how to complement Petey and Boeser, but I agree with others that he's more needed on the first line than the 2nd where Pearson's inspired play has been a boon.

 

[wetcoast]

Last night was a hard fought win. Benn gets hit with a marginal call and the Flyers capitalized on the PP. It wasn't a huge fluke that they won.

Did we watch the same 3rd period yesterday?

Marginal call, Benn clearly interfered with the Flyer, that's the type of penalty a team takes when they play on their heels the whole 3rd period.

Also, 4 games in there's really nothing to say about the playoffs. The season is long and we're going to catch teams on good nights and off nights. Was happy with the fight this team showed in response to Philly's big push in the third.

Have you watched the games, the canucks have looked flat at times when other teams push the pace, they need to simply play better and with the quality of the 4 teams they ahve played so far the way they have played is worrisome.

Back on topic: Miller is a nice addition to our top 6. He's still trying to figure out how to complement Petey and Boeser, but I agree with others that he's more needed on the first line than the 2nd where Pearson's inspired play has been a boon.

Miller is a nice addition, it's the price the Canucks paid (and the need to overpay Myers) that is the long term problem for the canucks unless they get a whole lot better.

 

[JanBulisPiggyBack]

Did we watch the same 3rd period yesterday?

Marginal call, Benn clearly interfered with the Flyer, that's the type of penalty a team takes when they play on their heels the whole 3rd period.



Have you watched the games, the canucks have looked flat at times when other teams push the pace, they need to simply play better and with the quality of the 4 teams they ahve played so far the way they have played is worrisome.



Miller is a nice addition, it's the price the Canucks paid (and the need to overpay Myers) that is the long term problem for the canucks unless they get a whole lot better.

Lordy lord!!

 

[Diversification]

Did we watch the same 3rd period yesterday?

Marginal call, Benn clearly interfered with the Flyer, that's the type of penalty a team takes when they play on their heels the whole 3rd period.



Have you watched the games, the canucks have looked flat at times when other teams push the pace, they need to simply play better and with the quality of the 4 teams they ahve played so far the way they have played is worrisome.



Miller is a nice addition, it's the price the Canucks paid (and the need to overpay Myers) that is the long term problem for the canucks unless they get a whole lot better.

Yes, I did. I saw the natural ebb and flow of a hockey game where each team seizes momentum at different times. I also saw a team that you've all but written off 4 games in respond in the way you'd hope they would: They fought through adversity and pulled out a W.

As for the penalty, it was pretty marginal. The flyer player went down easy when they got tangled up at the blue line.

If you take such pleasure eeyore-ing your way through the season, I won't deny your wish to do so.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Yes, I did. I saw the natural ebb and flow of a hockey game where each team seizes momentum at different times. I also saw a team that you've all but written off 4 games in respond in the way you'd hope they would: They fought through adversity and pulled out a W.

As for the penalty, it was pretty marginal. The flyer player went down easy when they got tangled up at the blue line.

If you take such pleasure eeyore-ing your way through the season, I won't deny your wish to do so.

I didnt like that call either (the Flyer embellished the call..IMO)..it was almost like a game management call..not surprised that Green was incensed by it at a critical point of the game...The Flyers did an almost identical infraction against a Canuck about 3 minutes later..nothing.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I generally think it was a bad trade but agree with this. People over value first round picks and undervalue good contracts. It's not just JT Miller, but that fact that he's signed to a good deal for three years makes him a quality asset, basically the first one Benning has found.

He shouldn't have cost a first round pick but I think the disastrous evaluation of the trade is overblown.

You can’t separate the player traded from the cost.

If you’re going to value Miller based upon his contract, a construct that exists outside of his actual play, then you also have to value him based on the cost it took to get him. Otherwise, you are selective choosing the tools you wish to employ in making your assertion.

That trade was heinous and excluding the cost in your evaluation just does not serve to address the crux of why it was heinous.

 

[mathonwy]

You can’t separate the player traded from the cost.

If you’re going to value Miller based upon his contract, a construct that exists outside of his actual play, then you also have to value him based on the cost it took to get him. Otherwise, you are selective choosing the tools you wish to employ in making your assertion.

That trade was heinous and excluding the cost in your evaluation just does not serve to address the crux of why it was heinous.

I think there's an argument to be made FOR the trade if one weighs the potential future value this franchise will get from that 1st round draft pick versus the potential present value this franchise will get from having JT Miller in the line up today.

The potential present value that I'm referring to is the accelerated player development of EP40 and BB6.

Playing with good players makes good players great.

Playing with trash results in the devaluation of good players (Vrbata, Higgins, Burr, Hammer..etc etc)

 

[Svencouver]

Have you seen the Canucks play this season, basically only the Kings game did they have a solid effort.

They had a jet lagged team in Philly at home last night and they got extremely lucky to even get a single point nevermind 2.

4 of their next 5 games are on the road and if they can't produce against Detroit (at home), NJ, NYR and Detroit again then the hole will become too big to climb out of.

they simply need to play much better than they have shown so far to even be in the playoff race.

Dallas, San Jose, Arizona and the Black Hawks all won't sleep their way through the season.

So we CAN judge the Canucks off their first 4 games of the season, but we can't do the same for Dallas, SJ, Arizona and Chicago? Lmao

 

[SillyRabbit]

I think there's an argument to be made FOR the trade if one weighs the potential future value this franchise will get from that 1st round draft pick versus the potential present value this franchise will get from having JT Miller in the line up today.

The potential present value that I'm referring to is the accelerated player development of EP40 and BB6.

Playing with good players makes good players great.

Playing with trash results in the devaluation of good players (Vrbata, Higgins, Burr, Hammer..etc etc)

Or the present value he offers will result in us finishing higher in the standings and missing out on a higher draft pick in this years stacked draft.

So not only do we lose out on next years 1st, this years 1st also gets weaker.

 

[wetcoast]

So we CAN judge the Canucks off their first 4 games of the season, but we can't do the same for Dallas, SJ, Arizona and Chicago? Lmao

Look at the rosters of Dallas and the Black Hawks they both improved over the summer as did the Yotes.

San Jose was basically a preseason lock for a top 3 spot in the Pacific, has that really changed?

The Canucks were a borderline wildcard hopeful and watching them play all 4 games they aren't showing any signs otherwise are they?

Like I stated upthread they have a pretty easy road trip coming up, if they don't step up their play it will be a long battle all season.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

IMO Miller has been our best skater so far.

Markström has been the MVP, again. But with Pettersson and Boeser nowhere to be found and Bo struggling offensively Miller is the defacto choice for me.

They should glue him and Horvat at the hip. That is an elite match up line.

I want to see Goldobin get another chance on Pettersson's wing to see if that chemistry is still there.

 

[lawrence]

He is a welcomed addition to our team in my opinon He brings some of everything, grit, toughness, offence.

I personally would like to see Brock back with Bo (brock was Bo's main linemate during Brocks rookie year),

Have MIller play with Petey. So far it seems like the other teams have the book on Brock and Elias.

 

[YouNeedToBeInformed]

Look at the rosters of Dallas and the Black Hawks they both improved over the summer as did the Yotes.

San Jose was basically a preseason lock for a top 3 spot in the Pacific, has that really changed?

The Canucks were a borderline wildcard hopeful and watching them play all 4 games they aren't showing any signs otherwise are they?

Like I stated upthread they have a pretty easy road trip coming up, if they don't step up their play it will be a long battle all season.

Honestly I haven't read the prior conversation but I always wondered how people say things with such certainly, when its arguable at best. I feel I know when what I'm stating is highly probably or arguable. When it's simply arguable, I say things like "actually i think" or "have you considered" etc. It seems you strongly think Dallas has gotten better and it should be pretty clear? Benn has declined hard. He is 30. Players often don't get better at that age. He's been their goto leader for ages now. Radulov is 33. Pavelski is 35, will probably take a step back, definitely in the goals dept

That team is extremely poor. They got a star young d man on a veteran team that's declining hard. Seguin as your main core piece. Honestly this is their last kick at the can, that's if everything goes well this season. Their young guys won't overshadow the inevitable decline of their old core

As far as the hawks go:

Toews increased his totals by 30 pts and had his best year. It's likely he will fall back down to 65 pts or so. He is 31 now. Maata is not much of an addition. I followed lehner in Buffalo. I'm thinking it's likely he reverts back to that goaltender and islanders were simply a good fit. Seabrook and Keith are getting ancient. Patrick Kane will not hit 110 pts again. Could potentially be 20 less. But yeah their goaltending could really hurt them this year. An improved team? Honestly at the start of the year, every team seems to appear improved unless you are realistic, and also have followed the players they acquired.

Arizona on paper, still has a team that maxes out at where they finished last year.

Look around at predictions for regular season standings in the west. Are they so obviously better?

I have Dallas finishing much lower than last season

As I said, I haven't read any prior posts but to be honest, I probably agree with the main point perhaps. I think we could fall back for a couple reasons, such as pettersson. But not many teams made so many clear improvements since the last quarter of last season. Using aging cores like ones you mentioned is an odd comparison. Especially with the certainty

Its much more likely you see an improvement from boeser, Horvat and potentially Pettersson. Whereas Myers, jt Miller, Hughes, Pearson are almost completely new adds, not shedding anybody on the roster to acquire.

How many guys are you thinking will improve on Dallas, hawks, Arizona?

Arizona added Kessel and lost galchenyuk. Sure.
And gained soderberg. Rookies in hayton rarely make an impact to the win column and are very easy to play against. He's getting 11 min a night to start the season

Is Brad Richardson getting 19 goals again? He was their leading scorer. Goligoski is getting to that age and declining. Demers is basically done. Hjalmarsson declining and not doing much for ya. Got 3 guys over 30 declining.

I may be debating semantics here but it seems people think all the teams in their conference get better. Takes away from the teams that actually did.