...or little to no impact at all (I'm looking at you Juolevi and Virtanen). One of the curious things about this place is that the folks complaining the hardest about the pick involved in this trade are often the same people who claim that Benning is terrible at everything... including drafting. Even if this turns into a top 5 pick (VERY unlikely IMHO) wouldn't it stand to reason to the haters that it would be very likely that Benning would screw the pick up? You can't have it both ways...
Player Discussion What do we have in J.T. Miller?
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...or little to no impact at all (I'm looking at you Juolevi and Virtanen). One of the curious things about this place is that the folks complaining the hardest about the pick involved in this trade are often the same people who claim that Benning is terrible at everything... including drafting. Even if this turns into a top 5 pick (VERY unlikely IMHO) wouldn't it stand to reason to the haters that it would be very likely that Benning would screw the pick up? You can't have it both ways...
mathonwy
Positively #toxic
- Jan 21, 2008
- 19,663
- 10,538
The more you defend WD's performance at this organization, the more you lessen your own credibility.
Which is sad TBH because you have actually made some pretty insightful observations about the toxic nepotistic management culture in the AIG and how it acts like a force field in terms of repelling competent managers from this craphole organization.
Here's some food for thought.
WD was hired into a toxic dichotomized locker room environment composed of very smart hockey players who had grown jaded as eff.
This locker room saw it's peak in 2011 and has been slowly rotting since due to organizational behavioral factors that are outside of the purvey of the public (we don't see the actual factors, we see the results and the results are extremely unhappy employees (assets) that leave this organization for nothing... trade value evaporated).
WD came in as a decent coach with high hopes and then got bent over by ownership (just like Vrbata did) when he found that none of the veteran players were actually listening to him and what he was left with was Brandon Sutter, Derek Dorsett and Linden Vey.
There's no doubt WD was in a very tough position here in Vancouver.
However, WD made a bad situation worse. He stopped becoming a professional and started becoming petty... very very petty.
And Zack Kassian is a direct casualty of his pettiness.
And if you had been actually watching hockey closely at that point of time, you would know this.
---
Sorry for derailing this thread but telling other people what their problems are with a elephant as big as yours never ends well.
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bandwagonesque
Practically a late 1st
- Mar 5, 2014
- 7,720
- 6,162
Double postThe more you defend WD's performance at this organization, the more you lessen your own credibility.
Which is sad TBH because you have actually made some pretty insightful observations about the toxic nepotistic management culture in the AIG and how it acts like a force field in terms of repelling competent managers from this craphole organization.
Here's some food for thought.
WD was hired into a toxic dichotomized locker room environment composed of very smart hockey players who had grown jaded as eff.
This locker room saw it's peak in 2011 and has been slowly rotting since due to organizational behavioral factors that are outside of the purvey of the public (we don't see the actual factors, we see the results and the results are extremely unhappy employees (assets) that leave this organization for nothing... trade value evaporated).
WD came in as a decent coach with high hopes and then got bent over by ownership (just like Vrbata did) when he found that none of the veteran players were actually listening to him and what he was left with was Derek Dorsett and Linden Vey.
There's no doubt WD was in a very tough position here in Vancouver.
However, WD made a bad situation worse. He stopped becoming a professional and started becoming petty... very very petty.
And Zack Kassian is a direct casualty of his pettiness.
And if you had been actually watching hockey closely at that point of time, you would know this.
---
Sorry for derailing this thread but telling other people what their problems are with a elephant as big as yours never ends well.
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At the end of the day I'd rather take a chance on Barry Pederson putting up 70 points on our first line and helping this young core push for the playoffs than waiting 2-3 years for our 1987 first-rounder to make an impact.
At the end of the day, Ottawa would rather take a chance on Matt Duchene putting up 70 points on their top line and helping their young core push for the playoffs than wait 2-3 years for their 2019 first to make an impact.
At the end of the day, Toronto would rather take a chance on Tom Kurvers putting up 50 points from the blueline behind their young core pushing for the playoffs than wait 2-3 years for their 1991 first to make an impact
When you look at the litany of the worst moves in modern NHL history, most of the biggest disasters were non-playoff teams using the exact same logic Benning was using for this deal.
bandwagonesque
Practically a late 1st
- Mar 5, 2014
- 7,720
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WD's coaching acumen in general not withstanding, Kassian was an alcoholic train wreck who was subsequently bounced out of another organization even more quickly than he was here.
bandwagonesque
Practically a late 1st
- Mar 5, 2014
- 7,720
- 6,162
If your list of the three most conspicuous moves of this type includes Tom Kurvers getting traded nearly thirty years ago, then they obviously do not constitute the majority of the league's worst moves. As long as you aren't also taking into account the number of times these gambits succeed, you aren't actually saying anything about the risk or whether it's worthwhile. You're just mentioning three times in thirty years when it definitely failed.
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BWJM
Registered User
I look at it this way.. not every player is a point producing machine at 18. Some trend upwards a few years and breakout. JT Miller is very capable of being this kinda player. At 26 years old he very well might just be entering his prime. I don't think Benning lost this trade at all. His value can still very well increase.
I don't think the Miller trade was done as quickly as we it supposedly unfolded over the phone. I'm thinking Miller was a player we got because the rest of the staff had made our first available for another trade (Barrie, Kadri, there were a few names being thrown about), and since the first was made available in those negotiations, it seemed to be a fit.
I'm not saying Benning negotiated properly, or he's worth keeping as a GM, or that it was good value for us (although if Miller keeps playing this way, and we find a way into a playoff position, maybe...). I think it was that we struck out on other trades, and that we were leveraging our first versus the other values, and if the narrative is Tampa Bay said a first in a third.
That being said, Miller has been exciting to watch. He fits with Horvat, Pettersson, Boeser and even Pearson. Maybe it's a one time fluke, maybe it was the plan all along, maybe the stars aligned perfectly. I don't know, I don't care, I'm cheering for the guy moving forward.
I'm not saying Benning negotiated properly, or he's worth keeping as a GM, or that it was good value for us (although if Miller keeps playing this way, and we find a way into a playoff position, maybe...). I think it was that we struck out on other trades, and that we were leveraging our first versus the other values, and if the narrative is Tampa Bay said a first in a third.
That being said, Miller has been exciting to watch. He fits with Horvat, Pettersson, Boeser and even Pearson. Maybe it's a one time fluke, maybe it was the plan all along, maybe the stars aligned perfectly. I don't know, I don't care, I'm cheering for the guy moving forward.
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So you admit that it's a protected pick then. Great.
It's a protected pick. If the pick is a lottery pick in 2020, the Canucks don't have to surrender their first . Under your definition, it's only a protected pick if a team can suck and miss the playoffs indefinitely and never have to surrender their first until such time as they make the playoffs.
The more you defend WD's performance at this organization, the more you lessen your own credibility.
Which is sad TBH because you have actually made some pretty insightful observations about the toxic nepotistic management culture in the AIG and how it acts like a force field in terms of repelling competent managers from this craphole organization.
Here's some food for thought.
WD was hired into a toxic dichotomized locker room environment composed of very smart hockey players who had grown jaded as eff.
This locker room saw it's peak in 2011 and has been slowly rotting since due to organizational behavioral factors that are outside of the purvey of the public (we don't see the actual factors, we see the results and the results are extremely unhappy employees (assets) that leave this organization for nothing... trade value evaporated).
WD came in as a decent coach with high hopes and then got bent over by ownership (just like Vrbata did) when he found that none of the veteran players were actually listening to him and what he was left with was Brandon Sutter, Derek Dorsett and Linden Vey.
There's no doubt WD was in a very tough position here in Vancouver.
However, WD made a bad situation worse. He stopped becoming a professional and started becoming petty... very very petty.
And Zack Kassian is a direct casualty of his pettiness.
And if you had been actually watching hockey closely at that point of time, you would know this.
---
Sorry for derailing this thread but telling other people what their problems are with a elephant as big as yours never ends well.
...and yet we got 101 points with him and he has remained employed in a number of high quality hockey positions (including winning an Olympic medal with an ECHL quality team) ever since with only the briefest periods of unemployment in between. I count it as massive progress here that FINALLY the difficulties that he faced here (ownership, jaded, entitled vets) are being acknowledged by at least somebody. Believe me I was torn between admiration and pity when he had the cajones to take on the L.A. job last year (which was, IMHO Karl Doenitz-like seeing as he had to deal with the bubonic plague of hockey in Ilya Kovalchuk to name only the worst of that hopelessly entitled crew). Blaming him for Kassian when it is common knowledge that Kassian was a complete trainwreck here is yet one more instance of the ridiculous hyperbole surrounding this guy. You are right; this is way off topic, just like the constant negative references to him that occur in nearly every thread on this board daily; it's turned into gratuitous abuse. I'll make everybody here a deal; quit referring to him with childish insults when it is totally irrelevant and I'll stop talking about how stupid that is. Deal?
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I would have quite liked Barrie and would have wept openly (edited to add "with sadness") had we acquired Kadri so I think Miller was a pretty good consolation prize, bargain or not...
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I don't agree with this.
Jake Virtanen was a lottery pick.
Olli Juolevi was a lottery pick.
Would you trade either of them for JTM?
I know I would trade both.
Jimbo has basically been 50/50 with his lottery picks. Even if we miss the playoffs both years and end up sending a lottery pick to TB, how do we know that Jimbo would've hit on that pick.
Some consideration has to be give to the fact that JTM is a known commodity and much of the risk factor has been alleviated. He's also cost controlled for the next 4-years on a cap friendly salary. The trade looked pretty good to me the minute Jimbo made it.
So what do we have in J.T. Miller? It all depends, because he's very much a 'here and now' player for the Canucks. If they were to make the playoffs in one of the next two season, and the first rounder the Canucks coughed up turns out to be someone in the 18-24 range, then he's been a success.
But if the Canucks falter, and the Bolts get a lottery pick, then he's been a failure. Bigger issues are at play here.
But if the Canucks falter, and the Bolts get a lottery pick, then he's been a failure. Bigger issues are at play here.
No one's saying bargain yet. Who knows though, with a young season, he could be our O'Reilly coming up.
Barrie then Miller then Kadri for me too. I'm forgetting the other "definite" and "expect an announcement tonight, a deal is imminent" players we were fighting for though.
Umm...
So the defense against criticisms of this trade is that Benning isn't very good at drafting?
If we don’t make the playoff in the next two years then the team needs to be stripped and they need to start a full rebuild. I think it’s a very unlikely scenario so I think the trade is worthwhile. Also, if this happens, Miller can be traded for a 1st at the 2021 TDL
To be honest, I'm not sure at this point which is more unlikely: that the Canucks miss the playoffs this year and next, or that JTM returns a 1st round pick at the TDL in '21. He'll be nearly 28 at that point and it's highly likely he will have already hit his peak in terms of offensive production.
Even if JTM returns a 1st round pick in '21, it's not going to be anywhere near as high a pick as the one the Canucks are sending to Tampa.
Edit: my sense of surety depends greatly on how long Benning continues to be GM of the Canucks.
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mriswith
Registered User
- Oct 12, 2011
- 4,742
- 8,772
I like him more than I expected, he definitely isn't a passenger. It's a relief that both Horvat and Pettersson will each get to have at least one good winger with them no matter what else happens. I still want him to stick on Bo's line and let Pettersson and Boeser figure out how to carry their line without him but I'm biased and want to see Bo hit 70 points this year.
We are a cap team juggling LTIR and 2 million dollar cap hits in the minors to make it under the cap; all this and everyone is desperately hoping we can sneak into a wild card spot. That means we have a huge amount of bad/bloated contracts that will prevent us from contending until they're gone.
Which by the way means the exact same thing as the JT Miller trade - Benning can't negotiate worth a bean and by all reports he doesn't even try. Everything is an overpayment.
I mean the team will absolutely need a mini rebuild when new management is brought in.
We are a cap team juggling LTIR and 2 million dollar cap hits in the minors to make it under the cap; all this and everyone is desperately hoping we can sneak into a wild card spot. That means we have a huge amount of bad/bloated contracts that will prevent us from contending until they're gone.
Which by the way means the exact same thing as the JT Miller trade - Benning can't negotiate worth a bean and by all reports he doesn't even try. Everything is an overpayment.
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