News Article: What did the Senators get out of trading EK65

[Sensmileletsgo]

Ya - I’d buy tickets too if he built a billon dollar arena downtown, eliminated all traffic, sold $2 beer, and made sure every game day was no less than 0-C. I’m all on for a solid 10 game pack if he offers $25 tickets. That should let us extend Brady right ?

Tempting... but I’ll still probably continue to illegally stream the games

 

[Sweatred]

Cool your jets buddy I'm not coming after you, I said that in good faith. I truly believe the future of the team lies in moving the team downtown, I don't think it will ever be profitable so long as it stays in Kanata.

Ya - no harm intended ... I like your posts ... I ranted a bit

 

[Rodzilla]

I am probably not alone with this thought process (I hope not), but I am actually hoping that Erik Karlsson regains his Norris trophy form and dominates for the San Jose Sharks, especially this season.

I mean if Chabot has a chance, then I would want him to win it over Karlsson but realistically I am not sure Chabot could win one just yet, so homerism aside, I am extremely content with the trade return therefore I have no problem seeing two happy sides to this story when all is said and done.

You are not alone. The things Karlsson did for this franchise’s actually sick. I’ll always remember the run to the ECF.

Reading this thread pisses me off a bit. I live surrounded by Montreal Canadiens fans and they’re exactly like that, you’re with the team you’re the best, you’re out you arent anything anymore and are washed/bad/toxic whatever.

Karlsson was the main reason I watched the Senators for the past 10 years. Ill always be thankful for what he’s done. When you look back at the trade, the whole process was garbage, and I still believe that AT the time, the value wasnt very good. Obviously today we are happy and we’ll support Tim, but I still watch Karlsson play and wish him the best.

 

[TonySoprano11]

Everyone here talking about "Hey its totally cool if he wanted MAX money and no player owes a franchise discount" is correct. He certainly has that right. However, it is also what separates a Karlsson from an Alfredsson. One is a beloved legend on this team, and the other is slowly becoming a villain as more time passes.

Let's not forget that Alfredsson actually offered to forego his own salary to make sure other guys on the team got paid when the franchise was having trouble making payroll before Melnyk bought the team. Let's not forgot the sweetheart deal Alfredsson made with his contract which only paid him $1M his final season here as to offer cap relief so the team could bring on and pay other players.

That is what a real leader does. That is what someone who loves his team and his city does. Karlsson did not do these things. Again, that is OK on his part, but that is why he will never be remembered from this franchise base as a Senator legend in the long term. Memories of his play will fade, the way he left the franchise will not.

 

[Sweatred]

Everyone here talking about "Hey its totally cool if he wanted MAX money and no player owes a franchise discount" is correct. He certainly has that right. However, it is also what separates a Karlsson from an Alfredsson. One is a beloved legend on this team, and the other is slowly becoming a villain as more time passes.

Let's not forget that Alfredsson actually offered to forego his own salary to make sure other guys on the team got paid when the franchise was having trouble making payroll before Melnyk bought the team. Let's not forgot the sweetheart deal Alfredsson made with his contract which only paid him $1M his final season here as to offer cap relief so the team could bring on and pay other players.

That is what a real leader does. That is what someone who loves his team and his city does. Karlsson did not do these things. Again, that is OK on his part, but that is why he will never be remembered from this franchise base as a Senator legend in the long term. Memories of his play will fade, the way he left the franchise will not.

Well said -

 

[Xspyrit]

Embarrassing post. The guy gave us his all when we had nothing but trash. When we had an average roster he put up one of the best post-season performances by a defender since Pronger ~10 years ago, and one of the best all-time... on one leg.

He even delayed possibly getting traded until last second cause he wanted to still stay here. I salute you, captain EK.

I understand that you want to defend Karlsson because he doesn't deserve to take crap (and I don't think being called a Leprechaun was all that bad... I mean, I have seen other players get insulted much more than that on a regular basis)... but what you said (highlighted) is ridiculous...

This is the teammates Karlsson has had in Ottawa (sorted by PPG during the Karlsson years) :

Jason Spezza
Mark Stone
Daniel Alfredsson
Matt Duchene
Kyle Turris
Mike Hoffman
Bobby Ryan
Clarke MacArthur
Alex Kovalev
Mike Fisher
Derick Brassard
Milan Michalek
Mika Zibanejad
Sergei Gonchar
Nick Foligno
Ryan Dzingel
Filip Kuba
Jean-Gabriel Pageau
Marc Methot
Craig Anderson
Robin Lehner
Brian Elliott
Etc

Sure we were never a top team like Pittsburgh or Chicago but the team has been competitive pretty much every year. Made the playoffs 5/9 seasons and won 3 playoffs series. Only 2010-11 and 2017-18 were subpar.

Also, the only reason EK was holding out hope is because (sources from Montreal) a group was trying to buy the Sens but Melnyk wanted significantly more than the highest offer. I really really doubt Ek wanted to be a Melnyk employee much longer.

 

[JD1]

We've seen this story before, though. Karlsson, Stone and co. were exciting prospects before they were sold for parts. As long as the root of the problem remains in place, I don't know why we'd expect any different.

What the root of the problem?

Small market that's getting priced out of the league?

 

[Sweatred]

What the root of the problem?

Small market that's getting priced
out of the league?

The problem is the Sens owner should pay me to go to games for free... I mean ... I post on HF boards a tonne - that has to be worth at least $.0002 cents a post if he figures out his social advertising.
No excuse not to give EK $92 Zillion US to let him ambassador out his last few years as a $30 zillion gift for good service.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Everyone here talking about "Hey its totally cool if he wanted MAX money and no player owes a franchise discount" is correct. He certainly has that right. However, it is also what separates a Karlsson from an Alfredsson. One is a beloved legend on this team, and the other is slowly becoming a villain as more time passes.

Let's not forget that Alfredsson actually offered to forego his own salary to make sure other guys on the team got paid when the franchise was having trouble making payroll before Melnyk bought the team. Let's not forgot the sweetheart deal Alfredsson made with his contract which only paid him $1M his final season here as to offer cap relief so the team could bring on and pay other players.

That is what a real leader does. That is what someone who loves his team and his city does. Karlsson did not do these things. Again, that is OK on his part, but that is why he will never be remembered from this franchise base as a Senator legend in the long term. Memories of his play will fade, the way he left the franchise will not.

Oh please.

Alfredsson deserves every accolade he gets and earned every dollar he made, but let’s not make him out to be Mother Theresa here. He deferred 200k in salary (he did not forego it) in 2003 to make room for a trade deadline acquisition, and the front-loaded deal that he took in 09/10 was not a favor to a small-market team - it was a what every other team was doing with their star players until the NHL closed the loophole.

In 09/10 and 10/11, Alfredsson was one of the highest paid players in the league. The cap was $59.4M and he made $7M per season those two years. Today, that’d be the equivalent of a player making $10M per season. So he got paid.

He never intended to play out the final year at $1M when he signed the deal, but when he did, he expected to be made whole in 13/14. That’s what he asked for in negotiations, and when Melnyk didn’t want to pay, he packed up and went to Detroit. And he was right to do it.

It had nothing to do with not loving the city, just like Karlsson asking to get paid didn’t. The guy was traded 2 years ago to a beautiful town in California and still chooses to live in Ottawa. A city that, according to many on this board, no millionaire would ever want to spend time in. I think he loves it quite a bit.

When all is said and done, fans will have long forgotten about Eugene Melnyk and Pierre Dorion. They’ll remember the incredible 8 years of on-ice Karlsson, and when there’s new ownership and he’s retired, he’ll be welcomed back with open arms.

I expect it to go very much like how it went for Paul Kariya in Anaheim. A couple years of anger that will soon subside.

 

[Sweatred]

Oh please.

Alfredsson deserves every accolade he gets and earned every dollar he made, but let’s not make him out to be Mother Theresa here. He deferred 200k in salary (he did not forego it) in 2003 to make room for a trade deadline acquisition, and the front-loaded deal that he took in 09/10 was not a favor to a small-market team - it was a what every other team was doing with their star players until the NHL closed that loophole.

In 09/10 and 10/11, Alfredsson was one of the highest paid players in the league. The cap was $59.4M and he made $7M per season those two years. Today, that’d be the equivalent of a player making $10M per season. So he got paid.

He never intended to play out the final year at $1M when he signed the deal, but when he did, he expected to be made whole in 13/14. That’s what he asked for in negotiations, and when Melnyk didn’t want to pay up, he went to Detroit. And he was right to do it.

It had nothing to do with not loving the city, just like Karlsson asking to get paid didn’t. That’s why he still lives year and is very involved in the community with his wife.

When all is said and done, fans will have long forgotten about Eugene Melnyk and Pierre Dorion. They’ll remember the incredible 8 years of on-ice Karlsson, and when there’s new ownership and he’s retired, he’ll be welcomed back with open arms.

I expect it to go very much like how it went for Paul Kariya in Anaheim. A couple years of anger that will soon subside.

Yep - Alfy signed that deal assuming that last year he’d be out of the league - he proved himself wrong than wanted full pay for that year.

All contracts had that gift year at the end to lower the AAV - Alfy just provided
Positive value on the contract (heaven forbid).

 

[Xspyrit]

I have read a few times now that we lucked out on getting Tim Stuetzle... How exactly?

We made a trade with a team and had their 1st rounder. They shat the bed and we benefited from it. It actually happens quite often that a 1st traded was from a team that finally doesn't make the playoffs, and sometimes the pick even ends up in the top-10.

What I see is Dorion (that I criticize a lot myself) getting criticized for the Duchene trade but getting Stuetzle was "pure luck". It just doesn't make any sense.

Karlsson didn't push for the Duchene trade, the Zibanejad trade, the Stone trade, the Turris trade, inability/reluctance to keep Methot, Ryan's substance abuse, Cowen's injuries and busting, Michalek regressing.

A lot of really weird deflection here and blame. Sure you can say after all his injuries he isn't worth 11million per year. But he was a great defensemen that made this team enjoyable to follow for the better part of a decade, even when we weren't a playoff team half that time. Locker room stuff is hearsay and as with Subban, very much conjecture or totally made up on "gut feeling". Don't hear about either of them being locker room problems on their teams. And if they were such problems, why were they part of the leadership group of the team for basically their entire tenure (10 years) minus rookie/sophomore years and considered Captain material/named Captain.

I live near Montreal and everyone and their dog knows there was a real divide in the Habs locker room with Pacioretty crew and Subban crew. Players like Subban and Karlsson are huge stars and have a natural "cocky demeanor" (without necessarily bad intentions), they have a lot of charisma and take a lot of space in a locker room. I think they matured a bit with age and learned how to keep it a bit lower profile but this is not surprising if it didn't go with all hockey players. The NHL is not the NFL or NBA.

I also heard interviews that apparently Karlsson "took a lot of space" and was a bit hard to coach. Seriously, I don't even remember the interview and who were the coaches talking, not that important IMO. The NHL is a small world. I don't know in Ontario but here in Quebec, we constantly have access to players who played or still play the game, actual and ex coaches, etc. You can take it with a grain of salt but nothing that I have heard about Karlsson came as a big surprise. That doesn't mean anyone should crap on him and it certainly didn't change the appreciation I had for him. I was a huge fan, holding a 20 K$ rookie cards collection for a decade.

I have to agree. The Duchenne deal is viewed, by me as worse because it didn't work out at all. As you put it in more of a vacuum without the team results being relative to the to years Duchenne was here Ottawa did flip wth for a first rounder which, Lass Thompson who may be something he may not.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here? Duchene deal is worse than what? The Karlsson deal? Because it didn't owrk out? But how did it work out for the Sharks? Sorry, you'll have to explain because I don't see the logic here.

 

[Korpse]

We've seen this story before, though. Karlsson, Stone and co. were exciting prospects before they were sold for parts. As long as the root of the problem remains in place, I don't know why we'd expect any different.

Not that I want to come to the defense of Melnyk here but it's not like those teams were competitive year in and year out. The argument could be made that Melnyk's unwillingness to spend hampered the ability of those teams to contend but you look at what Karlsson and Stone are making and the age they are and it's a tough sell for a core that was consistently inconsistent. I wasn't happy about what happened or how it was done but I can understand why it happened. That's not to say this current core will be consistently competitive either, but that's the hope and it would justify handing out some contracts that were previously avoided.

 

[SensHulk]

Don't the Sens still have a 2nd round pick to go, or am I mistaken?

Hmm probably right. I meant the more meaningful return such as first round pick but hey I guess we can hope the sharks lose more to get a better 2nd rounder

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Everyone here talking about "Hey its totally cool if he wanted MAX money and no player owes a franchise discount" is correct. He certainly has that right. However, it is also what separates a Karlsson from an Alfredsson. One is a beloved legend on this team, and the other is slowly becoming a villain as more time passes.

Let's not forget that Alfredsson actually offered to forego his own salary to make sure other guys on the team got paid when the franchise was having trouble making payroll before Melnyk bought the team. Let's not forgot the sweetheart deal Alfredsson made with his contract which only paid him $1M his final season here as to offer cap relief so the team could bring on and pay other players.

That is what a real leader does. That is what someone who loves his team and his city does. Karlsson did not do these things. Again, that is OK on his part, but that is why he will never be remembered from this franchise base as a Senator legend in the long term. Memories of his play will fade, the way he left the franchise will not.

uhhh this fanbase turned on alfredsson too

 

[Karl Eriksson]

Norris and Tierney are going to be difference makers this year. I think we won this trade already.

 

[SixthSens]

I have read a few times now that we lucked out on getting Tim Stuetzle... How exactly?

We made a trade with a team and had their 1st rounder. They shat the bed and we benefited from it. It actually happens quite often that a 1st traded was from a team that finally doesn't make the playoffs, and sometimes the pick even ends up in the top-10.

What I see is Dorion (that I criticize a lot myself) getting criticized for the Duchene trade but getting Stuetzle was "pure luck". It just doesn't make any sense.

I'm not a fan of giving up a 1st well before (or even early in the season for that matter)... too many of these deals backfire on the clubs that give up the 1st. It backfired on us (Duchene deal), however it also benefited us (Karlsson deal). It destroyed the Leafs (Kessel deal). The Bobby Ryan deal also saw us give up the 10th overall pick in a draft a year later.

 

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

Everyone here talking about "Hey its totally cool if he wanted MAX money and no player owes a franchise discount" is correct. He certainly has that right. However, it is also what separates a Karlsson from an Alfredsson. One is a beloved legend on this team, and the other is slowly becoming a villain as more time passes.

Let's not forget that Alfredsson actually offered to forego his own salary to make sure other guys on the team got paid when the franchise was having trouble making payroll before Melnyk bought the team. Let's not forgot the sweetheart deal Alfredsson made with his contract which only paid him $1M his final season here as to offer cap relief so the team could bring on and pay other players.

That is what a real leader does. That is what someone who loves his team and his city does. Karlsson did not do these things. Again, that is OK on his part, but that is why he will never be remembered from this franchise base as a Senator legend in the long term. Memories of his play will fade, the way he left the franchise will not.

The Sens offered Karlsson $10M AAV for 6-7 years or something. First of all, underpayment. Guys like Subban and Doughty were getting paid more than that (relative to the cap when they signed), and Karlsson was easily better than both. The deal also had no incentives - NMC, signing bonus, anything. Which is crazy for a star player. He could sign that deal and get traded to Arizona the next day.

Secondly, why on Earth is the player faulted for trying to do what’s best for him, while the team is praised for trying to do what’s best for them? At your job, are you taking pay cuts and signing lesser money so your company can hire more
people? I seriously doubt it.

Karlsson is not becoming the villain. He signed a pretty team-friendly deal at $6.5M AAV days before he won his first Norris. We got very, very good value out of that contract. The team was heading for a rebuild, and losing with a core of Karlsson-Duchene-Stone. The moves are hard to make, but it’s a great thing we traded those pieces now. We accelerated the rebuild by a few years.

 

[Micklebot]

Everyone here talking about "Hey its totally cool if he wanted MAX money and no player owes a franchise discount" is correct. He certainly has that right. However, it is also what separates a Karlsson from an Alfredsson. One is a beloved legend on this team, and the other is slowly becoming a villain as more time passes.

Let's not forget that Alfredsson actually offered to forego his own salary to make sure other guys on the team got paid when the franchise was having trouble making payroll before Melnyk bought the team. Let's not forgot the sweetheart deal Alfredsson made with his contract which only paid him $1M his final season here as to offer cap relief so the team could bring on and pay other players.

That is what a real leader does. That is what someone who loves his team and his city does. Karlsson did not do these things. Again, that is OK on his part, but that is why he will never be remembered from this franchise base as a Senator legend in the long term. Memories of his play will fade, the way he left the franchise will not.

Do you think Alfredsson would have advised Karlsson to take a team friendly deal from a Melnyk owned team? The scandal surrounding his departure suggests otherwise.

The kind of team first mentality Alfredsson diplayed back when the team was going into bankruptcy is earned, did the team do what was needed to earn that kind of loyalty from Karlsson?

Its easy to say what a leader would or should do from the outside looking in.

 

[c_mak]

I have read a few times now that we lucked out on getting Tim Stuetzle... How exactly?

We made a trade with a team and had their 1st rounder. They shat the bed and we benefited from it. It actually happens quite often that a 1st traded was from a team that finally doesn't make the playoffs, and sometimes the pick even ends up in the top-10.

What I see is Dorion (that I criticize a lot myself) getting criticized for the Duchene trade but getting Stuetzle was "pure luck". It just doesn't make any sense.

What I was trying to say was that the Duchene trade is not the reason the team went off the rails. The trade measured against the teams success was a failure. which is how almost all trades are viewed, through the lens of team success. I was agreeing with the idea that as a trade the Duchene trade was not that bad, viewed in the vacuum of a hockey trade. I hate the Duchene trade because the Sens sucked after. I like the Karlson trade because Ottawa got lots of good prospects back and it appears it will fuel a rebuild. My lense is actually different for each trade which the end is unfair to criticize Dorion because of different circumstances.


I live near Montreal and everyone and their dog knows there was a real divide in the Habs locker room with Pacioretty crew and Subban crew. Players like Subban and Karlsson are huge stars and have a natural "cocky demeanor" (without necessarily bad intentions), they have a lot of charisma and take a lot of space in a locker room. I think they matured a bit with age and learned how to keep it a bit lower profile but this is not surprising if it didn't go with all hockey players. The NHL is not the NFL or NBA.

I also heard interviews that apparently Karlsson "took a lot of space" and was a bit hard to coach. Seriously, I don't even remember the interview and who were the coaches talking, not that important IMO. The NHL is a small world. I don't know in Ontario but here in Quebec, we constantly have access to players who played or still play the game, actual and ex coaches, etc. You can take it with a grain of salt but nothing that I have heard about Karlsson came as a big surprise. That doesn't mean anyone should crap on him and it certainly didn't change the appreciation I had for him. I was a huge fan, holding a 20 K$ rookie cards collection for a decade.



I'm not sure what you're trying to say here? Duchene deal is worse than what? The Karlsson deal? Because it didn't owrk out? But how did it work out for the Sharks? Sorry, you'll have to explain because I don't see the logic here.

 

[Xspyrit]

I'm not a fan of giving up a 1st well before (or even early in the season for that matter)... too many of these deals backfire on the clubs that give up the 1st. It backfired on us (Duchene deal), however it also benefited us (Karlsson deal). It destroyed the Leafs (Kessel deal). The Bobby Ryan deal also saw us give up the 10th overall pick in a draft a year later.

Yeah giving up a 1st in any trade is risky... I see it as gambling. Even "bubble playoffs team" do it, and sometimes it's just for rentals as they go "all in". Look at Columbus when they traded for Duchene and Dzingel.

At least Ryan was not a rental, he played 455 games for Ottawa and had 266 pts (0.58 PPG which is still better than Silf's 0.53 PPG 7-8 years later). The 1st was not "supposed" to land at 10th OA and it was seen as a weak draft. Don't remember what happened that season as the Sens made the playoffs the 2 prior seasons with less ammo. In 2013-14, they had Karlsson, Spezza, Turris, MacArthur, Ryan, Methot, Anderson all in their prime. Michalek had started to decline and Zibanejad was still young. Probably a depht problem as usual (need to invest $$$ as much as possible to have good/great depht)

Duchene was also not supposed to be a rental but a long term solution at center... That would have happened if the team didn't fall appart so quickly. In hindsight, maybe it was the best outcome instead of being "stuck" with long term contracts with declining players. Looking at Duchene, Karlsson and Dzingel, it kinda look like we dodged a few bullets

 

[Ice-Tray]

I think time has allowed many people to miss EK, wish him well, and be happy for the return.

From the looks of things we also can also surmise that PD offered a deal to EK that was not negotiated off of. We also know that EK didn’t negotiate because he felt that without trade protection he was likely/possibly traded, think NBA sign and trade. (He said this).

I think that was likely the preferred outcome for PD, as a signed and tradable EK would carry the most value. Conversely I now understand why EK wouldn’t want to negotiate, as he would lose control over where he played out the rest of his career.

It makes good sense that the team would try and maximize the value of a tradable asset, while it makes complete sense that EK would prefer a trade without term so he could choose where his next deal was negotiated.

It also makes sense that both sides would feed the media and fans with half-truths and platitudes throughout the process.

I think in a bubble most fans would want the team to be a bit ruthless when trying to do what’s best for the team, while we would also wholeheartedly support a player advocating for themselves.

I have a lot of opinions about EK, his last seasons here, and how all of this went down, but after all this time things have simmered into wishing him well and cherishing the memories he created here. I personally think the sens management, sens fans, and EK can all be happy with the outcome.

 

[Sweatred]

The Sens offered Karlsson $10M AAV for 6-7 years or something. First of all, underpayment

You think EK will be worth $10 million for the next 5 years ?

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

So, hold up. We don't know everything going on behind the scenes, that's true. I don't pretend to know everything going on behind the scenes, nor have I ever claimed to have more of an understanding of what happened than anyone else. Nor is it my job, for that matter. How can you then ask me to use this information that we don't have to clarify my already pretty clear opinion?

Forgive me if I don't get down into a Five-Step Plan to Improve the Optics. I'm not a general manager. I'm also not a helicopter pilot... but if I see a helicopter landed on a helipad with a ton of damage to its skids from having hit trees on the way there, I can still call a spade a spade and say the helicopter may have landed, but dude f***ed up in getting there. Doesn't take an expert in the field to acknowledge that the fanbase's enthusiasm took a real hit through it all and that's where the core of the issue with the trade lies.

so when you posted ...... "But I still hate the trade because it didn't have to happen the way it did,"...... which is easy to say, but you can't offer up any options that PD overlooked?

 

[Adele Dazeem]

Can't wait to see the look on all of your faces when Karlsson wins the Norris, Hart and Stanley Cup with the Sharks.
So much disrespect for the all time best Senator. Were you all not entertained? Spoiled brats, the lot of you.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I guess you can just keep pumping the narrative it’s someone else’s fault. You’ll fit in well around here . Cheers to a $1 Gat Costco Beer !

as good, if not better deals at a number of Gatineau Depanneurs, prior to long weekends.