Music: What Are You Listening To Part 5

[Pranzo Oltranzista]

Why do you think this angelic singer is pressured to making a small cover of the old classic "You're the voice" for a Swedish TV show and you've never heard of her? And she absolutely crushes it, as a cover!

But, she's basically blowing any world class artist today out of the sky with her power, feeling, technique, physique, emotion and talent. I wonder why? She's a siren.

This is some of the best singing I've ever heard. She crushes anything from any market. Yet unheard of. Hmm, wonder why?

Loreen is part Berber (culture in Morocco) and part Swedish. Her original culture believes in the power of healing through singing. And I as a Swede can feel that she tries that. She gives it all.

And basically 95% of you have never heard of her.

Enya?! Holy hell. You compare her to the average music of the car radio and what do you say? Enya is nobody compared to her strength.

My theory is she's a world class singer - vibrato, strength, soft vibrations, she got it all - that doesn't have a US music contract making her world famous. She doesn't have the dough behind her in marketing. So many, many mediocre US singers being "world artists" just because of their marketing and skimpy outfits. So much musical trash ahead of the actual singing talent of the world. It's honestly disgusting.

She does it all. Enya, naw. Loreen is a siren. She can do it all. Maybe her arabic wailing technique is offputting to the US market so nobody bets on her. I find the singers mastering the most cultural singing techniques the absolute best. Like her. I think it's splendid when you understand she sings for healing of all through her tradition from Morocco. That makes her an absolute trooper being a citizen of my country (Sweden). She thinks just like us.

She is a master. Yet no one knows who she is. She is well known in Europe, but not in the world. I wonder why?

I'm glad you found your siren*, but that's a very weird way of imposing your kitsch music tastes to others. I'll go with illegalsmile, she really doesn't sound that special to me.

*Aren't sirens supposed to bewitch you and kill you? Diamanda Galas is a siren. ;-)

 

[illegalsmile]

You don't know what is going on with the use of microphone selection, microphone positioning, compression, overdrive, tape-warming and saturation, studio environment can all greatly affect and manipulate the sound of their voices. It is not all pureness of their sound.

The more important distinction is that this artist is making a living in Sweden and making music for the Swedish market. Therefore, she will have her success in Sweden, appealing to Swedish ears who have certain expectations. Which is to say, it is going to sound very odd if you are expecting blues and r&b that comes from America. Swedish stuff is most likely never going to satisfy it and black singers are going to have to innovate to make their living in Sweden. Just like black singers in Canada had to innovate, and thus deviate from from American expectations.

In response to the first part of your comment... I know, it's why I chose to show you a video of someone singing without any mic whatsoever. Also, if these are your examples of "chintzy," I think you've under-thought it.

Anyway, in the case of Billy Holiday, we do know what was going on with the microphone, (when she actually used one.) There's a traceable history. Her signature mic, the Shure 730B, is still known as the Billy Holiday Mic, to this day. It's a Crystal-Core mic, specifically designed for picking up the resonance of a voice. It was not only a cheap end mic, largely due to the fact she resented having to use one, so therefore didn't really care, but designed to cut out buzz and feedback. It was originally designed to be hooked up direct to a reel-to-reel tape to offer quickness of turnover for getting a record out. The beauty of it was it could only be used as a straight up transmitter, direct into a recording device. So reducing any artificial sounds being picked up. Any "tweeking," would cause the delicate microphone to malfunction. Often, throughout her club days she sang with no mic whatsoever. The same as she was doing in the video in my last comment. The same video, I believe, also emphasizes just how someone can sound as good live, as they can on record. It's certainly something not every singer can do, certainly not without a lot of electronics involved. Billy Holiday isn't the only one who started off their singing career, performing in Jazz clubs singing without a mic, often without backing instruments, as well. Ella Fitzgerald, Dinah Washington and Sarah Vaughn all started out the same way. Janis Joplin, as well... Frank Sinatra too.

As for nationality, or location of an artist, in this case, I honestly do not think there is, necessarily, a distinction, or even that it matters. I mean, we are not talking about which market the music is being made for. This was something I touched upon in a response to the original poster of the Loreen songs, it was just simply down to ability, talent and sound. Apparently, according to the OP, she is "well known," in Europe, as well as Sweden. I can say with all truth, I never have expectations when listening to a new song, or artist. I could see from the video thumbnails she is a modern artist, so honestly I wasn't expecting anything as good as Blues, R&B, or Jazz music. I don't see anyone going into listening to a modern artist nowadays and expect to hear the Blues. The reason I mentioned so many Jazz and Blues singers, is simply because they are fantastic examples of the type of talent I was referring to. Also, just from my end, I never once thought about this being about the colour of an artists skin... I'm aware Op appeared to be making loose insinuations about it, in an earlier comment, but I think that is another discussion altogether.

 

[illegalsmile]

To each of their own, sure. I just find so much greatness in her ways of using so many singing techniques in her repertoire. Stronger than most top 10 charts today. Add her emotion for what she sings. I think that's unique enough, but you digress. That's fine. She's got soul and power. That's why I think she's so incredibly underrated. You think she sounds too artificial? Compared to 90% of all world artists today she uses some echo, not much autotune. You think her wailing is autotune. It's not. It's Berber wailing. That's her greatness.

For the record, I'm mostly a classical and metal fan. I still love her artistry. It's so clean to me. You can feel her emotions through her music.

I'm glad you have found the music that rights for you... Incidentally, I don't think her wail is autotune, as I said, it's a common technique, often heard and often using an echo chamber reverb filter for "reach," as in your girls case.

I can appreciate some classical, but it isn't really my thing, overall.

What's your taste with Metal??

 

[Xelebes]

In response to the first part of your comment... I know, it's why I chose to show you a video of someone singing without any mic whatsoever. Also, if these are your examples of "chintzy," I think you've under-thought it.

Anyway, in the case of Billy Holiday, we do know what was going on with the microphone, (when she actually used one.) There's a traceable history. Her signature mic, the Shure 730B, is still known as the Billy Holiday Mic, to this day. It's a Crystal-Core mic, specifically designed for picking up the resonance of a voice. It was not only a cheap end mic, largely due to the fact she resented having to use one, so therefore didn't really care, but designed to cut out buzz and feedback. It was originally designed to be hooked up direct to a reel-to-reel tape to offer quickness of turnover for getting a record out. The beauty of it was it could only be used as a straight up transmitter, direct into a recording device. So reducing any artificial sounds being picked up. Any "tweeking," would cause the delicate microphone to malfunction. Often, throughout her club days she sang with no mic whatsoever. The same as she was doing in the video in my last comment. The same video, I believe, also emphasizes just how someone can sound as good live, as they can on record. It's certainly something not every singer can do, certainly not without a lot of electronics involved. Billy Holiday isn't the only one who started off their singing career, performing in Jazz clubs singing without a mic, often without backing instruments, as well. Ella Fitzgerald, Dinah Washington and Sarah Vaughn all started out the same way. Janis Joplin, as well... Frank Sinatra too.

As for nationality, or location of an artist, in this case, I honestly do not think there is, necessarily, a distinction, or even that it matters. I mean, we are not talking about which market the music is being made for. This was something I touched upon in a response to the original poster of the Loreen songs, it was just simply down to ability, talent and sound. Apparently, according to the OP, she is "well known," in Europe, as well as Sweden. I can say with all truth, I never have expectations when listening to a new song, or artist. I could see from the video thumbnails she is a modern artist, so honestly I wasn't expecting anything as good as Blues, R&B, or Jazz music. I don't see anyone going into listening to a modern artist nowadays and expect to hear the Blues. The reason I mentioned so many Jazz and Blues singers, is simply because they are fantastic examples of the type of talent I was referring to. Also, just from my end, I never once thought about this being about the colour of an artists skin... I'm aware Op appeared to be making loose insinuations about it, in an earlier comment, but I think that is another discussion altogether.

My only issue with your dissection of her tone has been that you have mostly focused on the effects being used, so yes I'm going to question your specific focus to show how you are completely missing the point of the conversation. The question is whether Loreen has a good voice and the answer for me, as a Canadian who has listened to a lot of Blues and jazz and pop is that she's. . . okay. Not to my expectations of a great singer. She's serviceable if she landed some work in Canada or US but nothing special. Nothing to do with the effects as the effects are a market decision, with her typically working in the Swedish market so it says nothing about whether she is a strong singer.

And in my opinion, Bessie Smith and Billie Holliday are iconic singers not because of their singing quality (they meet a standard, sure), but because of the market they served (US), and the selection of songs they chose to sing. In the case of Billie Holliday, while many singers chose to adopt her techniques, they never succeeded all that well. Largely due to the technique being not all that superior. They sang songs which met the expectations of an American audience, and they chose songs which could separate them from others.

 

[illegalsmile]

My only issue with your dissection of her tone has been that you have mostly focused on the effects being used, so yes I'm going to question your specific focus to show how you are completely missing the point of the conversation. The question is whether Loreen has a good voice and the answer for me, as a Canadian who has listened to a lot of Blues and jazz and pop is that she's. . . okay. Not to my expectations of a great singer. She's serviceable if she landed some work in Canada or US but nothing special. Nothing to do with the effects as the effects are a market decision, with her typically working in the Swedish market so it says nothing about whether she is a strong singer.

And in my opinion, Bessie Smith and Billie Holliday are iconic singers not because of their singing quality (they meet a standard, sure), but because of the market they served (US), and the selection of songs they chose to sing. In the case of Billie Holliday, while many singers chose to adopt her techniques, they never succeeded all that well. Largely due to the technique being not all that superior. They sang songs which met the expectations of an American audience, and they chose songs which could separate them from others.

Yes, I answered the queries that you speculated upon... Remember, the microphone stuff? The playing live stuff? The studio manipulation stuff? The point of the conversation was indeed simply opinion, and if you'd have taken the time, you'd see that I already addressed that in my comments to OP. After that, the conversation went more towards, "microphone position" and "compression," also, trying to ascertain the meaning behind, "chintzy," techniques. I am sorry that I can't hit the goal, when the posts keep getting moved...

The reason for the detail of the mic was for your benefit, getting you to understand the workings of techniques such as compression, and when they can and can't be applied. (Y'know, because you brought them up...) I genuinely thought you'd get that. I suppose I made that assumption, so, yes, that is on me. I've played with, recorded and produced a high number of artists and musicians myself and as such, I understand studio techniques, both old and new. As well as, when and where they were used, this is easily understood with knowing what you're listening out for. Anything beyond that was just pointing out, with some degree of working knowledge, what's there to be heard by all, echos and filters etc. I wasn't judging Loreen's voice, as I haven't heard it yet, at least not without effects, that was my point.

And, you sir, are fully entitled to your opinion, expressed in the second part of your comment... Although both Bessie Smith and Billy Holiday were huge throughout Europe, nowhere more so that France, Spain and Italy. Haha, do you think Strange Fruit met the expectations of the US? I really hope it did, I mean, it obviously didn't, but it's fun to speculate, isn't it?! I mean, you're partly right about singing songs that separated them from others, but not really, as a lot of what was sung were written especially for them by independent writers, some of the others are classics from the American songbook. Although, I literally love how you take others directly copying Billy Holiday and not being able to succeed, as something wrong with the technique. You wouldn't say, that might be on the singers who copied her? Also, which singers in particular are you referencing here? Just out of curiosity...

 

[Xelebes]

I'm saying that theatre shot doesn't have the same trickery going on. Now it's you who's being the child. Audio engineers have a lot of work to do to make sure that all recordings they make is passible. Otherwise it doesn't get sent out. And the standard for what is passable is going to be set by the audiences for the respective market.

American artists frequently got themselves into European markets by simply having a lot of money and sway on their side, as well as being part of the touring musicians during World War 2 and entertaining stationed soldiers in those respective countries. So yes, American artists meeting American needs are going o see a lot of crossover in European markets. You're a genius.

The song selection is important and Strange Fruit, to entertain your example, may have met some resistance politically but it was also a more enduring song because of those politics.

The singers who I am referencing ehre are like Eleanor Collins. You may go "what?" and that would partly be my point. Eleanor Collins was the First Lady of Jazz in Canada and she heavily borrowed Billy Holiday's technique and style. She had her radio show in Vancouver in the 40s and eventually got her TV show but despite all that didn't really break any waves. Most Jazz fans can't really place any performances of hers. Along comes Judy Singh, who hails from the same city as Eleanor Collins (Edmonton) and decides that Collins has been making herself invisible by doing so. So she decides to rewirte the rules of jazz a bit and decides to sing a Canadian woman, comfortably in the nose and all that. And her recordings become instantly recognisable to jazz fans, or at least much more recognisable than Eleanor Collins. As a consequence, more black singers adopt trying to sing Canadian style and some eventually get onto the Canadian pop charts with nary a thought as to how to break into the American market.

 

[illegalsmile]

I'm saying that theatre shot doesn't have the same trickery going on. Now it's you who's being the child. Audio engineers have a lot of work to do to make sure that all recordings they make is passible. Otherwise it doesn't get sent out. And the standard for what is passable is going to be set by the audiences for the respective market.

American artists frequently got themselves into European markets by simply having a lot of money and sway on their side, as well as being part of the touring musicians during World War 2 and entertaining stationed soldiers in those respective countries. So yes, American artists meeting American needs are going o see a lot of crossover in European markets. You're a genius.

The song selection is important and Strange Fruit, to entertain your example, may have met some resistance politically but it was also a more enduring song because of those politics.

The singers who I am referencing ehre are like Eleanor Collins. You may go "what?" and that would partly be my point. Eleanor Collins was the First Lady of Jazz in Canada and she heavily borrowed Billy Holiday's technique and style. She had her radio show in Vancouver in the 40s and eventually got her TV show but despite all that didn't really break any waves. Most Jazz fans can't really place any performances of hers. Along comes Judy Singh, who hails from the same city as Eleanor Collins (Edmonton) and decides that Collins has been making herself invisible by doing so. So she decides to rewirte the rules of jazz a bit and decides to sing a Canadian woman, comfortably in the nose and all that. And her recordings become instantly recognisable to jazz fans, or at least much more recognisable than Eleanor Collins. As a consequence, more black singers adopt trying to sing Canadian style and some eventually get onto the Canadian pop charts with nary a thought as to how to break into the American market.

I love how you operate, sir... You bring up irrelevances by way of speculating over studio techniques, so I tell you, with some degree of actual knowledge, when and where they are actually used. You take offence at that, because you've listened to records, ("as a Canadian, who has listened to a lot of Blues and Jazz and Pop..."), you seem to believe that gives you certain knowledge on how those record came about. You obviously don't. What you have, is enough speculative knowledge to believe you shouldn't be corrected. At no point have I actually said your wrong with what you've said, I've simply filled in the bit's that in your comments were just speculative and generalizations. (Also, what's with that, "Now, it's you being the child?," line, this implies that I was originally accusing you of acting like a child. I honestly wasn't. I was actually patronizing you as the adult you, obviously, are. Huge difference!)

With your level of generalized knowledge concerning studio techniques, I tell you the details of your generalizations, having knowledge from experience and you get annoyed. What are you annoyed about? The fact I'm filling in the gaps for you? After that you really just go on to prove your lack of knowledge on how a lot American artists used to gain sway in Europe. Originally it was you forgetting these artists were popular outside of the US, altogether. Do you feel you just have to be agreed with? I mean, every time you have brought something new up, (microphones, singing live, popularity outside of the US), I have addressed and given a full answer to it all.

The last part of your comment, where you go on to explain the Canadian music market, I can't get past laughing at the line, "First Lady of Jazz in Canada..." I mean, what a brag!

No, no, I'm sorry, that was childish... (I actually don't use emojis that often, but I thought that was appropriate.) Again, sorry.

I tell you what, let's just pretend I haven't heard of Eleanor Collins and we can save some time. (I'm typing this out between the first and second period of the Tampa/NY game, so I have a time limit.) And, I bow to your knowledge of the Canadian Jazz Market, also your use of the word, "nary."

Are we done now??

 

[Xelebes]

NAh, I work in studios as well mate. There are tricks we use to make it acceptable to market. You wrinkle your nose at what Swedish producers are doing to her voice. A Swede is raving about the quality. You spend most of your time complaining that the Swedish techniques of production do not meet your American expectations but have very little to say about the quality of the respective examples voices. Let's get technical about the actual voices instead of talking about production techniques if you are up for it, but you haven't brought that to the table.

I guess a better way of leading the discussion is not so much compare her to Bessie Smith or Billie Holliday, but to Swedish singers who have had broad international success like Agnetha Faltskog.

 

[peate]

Perfection:

 

[peate]

Janis Joplin cover.

 

[Pavelski2112]

NAh, I work in studios as well mate. There are tricks we use to make it acceptable to market. You wrinkle your nose at what Swedish producers are doing to her voice. A Swede is raving about the quality. You spend most of your time complaining that the Swedish techniques of production do not meet your American expectations but have very little to say about the quality of the respective examples voices. Let's get technical about the actual voices instead of talking about production techniques if you are up for it, but you haven't brought that to the table.

I guess a better way of leading the discussion is not so much compare her to Bessie Smith or Billie Holliday, but to Swedish singers who have had broad international success like Agnetha Faltskog.

This is funny to me as an American who listened to a lot of pop growing up, considering the Swedes basically invented 90s pop via Max Martin and Denniz PoP

 

[Thucydides]

 

[illegalsmile]

NAh, I work in studios as well mate. There are tricks we use to make it acceptable to market. You wrinkle your nose at what Swedish producers are doing to her voice. A Swede is raving about the quality. You spend most of your time complaining that the Swedish techniques of production do not meet your American expectations but have very little to say about the quality of the respective examples voices. Let's get technical about the actual voices instead of talking about production techniques if you are up for it, but you haven't brought that to the table.

I guess a better way of leading the discussion is not so much compare her to Bessie Smith or Billie Holliday, but to Swedish singers who have had broad international success like Agnetha Faltskog.

Communicating with you feels quite Kafkaesque.

"I work in studios as well mate..." That is such a transparent lie! I mean, unless you mean hair studios, in which case, yeah, from what I've read from you, that does sound credible. Even hair studios need their cleaning staff, you provide a valuable service, sir! What you are, in reality, is a guy with Google and an inferiority complex. I'm waiting for the, "You think you're better than me...?" line from you. Dude, seriously, settle down. You're communicating with a faceless random, online, no one has spilled your beer. I'm able to patronize and insult you calmly, please observe the same standard. At the moment, it's all you, making yourself look a fool.

"You spend most of your time complaining that the Swedish techniques of production do not meet your American expectations..." You are literally making shit up now, you obviously see what you want in comments. I haven't complained about techniques, I explained to OP that the singers voice wasn't natural. So his appraisal of her, in my opinion, was a little overstated. I mean, this was to a person who had made an entire thread about Loreen, previous to now, so I thought it was a topic right for discussion. In one comment, I even state clearly, "this isn't, necessarily a bad thing, if there are people who enjoy it." I then go on to say, it isn't to my personal taste. That's all!

Beyond that, I explained to you with your shaky knowledge, when and how those techniques are applied. Remember, I was trying to ascertain what you meant by "chintzy techniques." If you read back, it was you who started the discussion on voice alteration, by speculating about singers you obviously have zero knowledge on. You also go on to state that we have no idea what was going on in the studio, which is untrue. As there is a traceable history of any and all recording techniques used in the past, as well as who used them. You then chose to assert you do have knowledge, by stating you've listened to music. Nothing else, just that! Anything said, by me, about Loreen was no discussion at all, as there is obviously voice alteration techniques at work. I also say, that I can't judge her voice as I haven't heard it unaltered, by those techniques... Also, I'm not American, nor do I live in America. Not really important, but just a reminder that there's more than one continent on the planet. (But apparently, your comment did actually come across as funny to an actual American in this thread, who has a broader knowledge of music than you.)

"A Swede is raving about the quality..." Are you Swedish, now? You were Canadian a few comments ago! And, you use the vernacular of an Englishman. If you're referencing OP, being the Swede raving about quality, then I think I address this to, with my statement of musical taste being purely arbitrary. Basically, it doesn't matter what nationality you are to appreciate something. If you feel it, you feel it! The fact a Swede raves about a Swedish singer is of no relevance to the conversation. (If you're not talking about yourself, or OP here, can you please clarify this line, because in context it's completely nonsensical.)

Before you inevitably reply to this, (likely with a ton of lies, made up nonsense and meandering passive-aggressiveness), click "reply" on my comment first, otherwise I have no idea you've answered, until much later when I peruse the site, because I get no notification. Thank You!

(Lovely use of the phrase, "wrinkle your nose," though.)

 

[kook10]

 

[Pranzo Oltranzista]

Communicating with you feels quite Kafkaesque.

"I work in studios as well mate..." That is such a transparent lie! I mean, unless you mean hair studios, in which case, yeah, from what I've read from you, that does sound credible. Even hair studios need their cleaning staff, you provide a valuable service, sir! What you are, in reality, is a guy with Google and an inferiority complex. I'm waiting for the, "You think you're better than me...?" line from you. Dude, seriously, settle down. You're communicating with a faceless random, online, no one has spilled your beer. I'm able to patronize and insult you calmly, please observe the same standard. At the moment, it's all you, making yourself look a fool.

"You spend most of your time complaining that the Swedish techniques of production do not meet your American expectations..." You are literally making shit up now, you obviously see what you want in comments. I haven't complained about techniques, I explained to OP that the singers voice wasn't natural. So his appraisal of her, in my opinion, was a little overstated. I mean, this was to a person who had made an entire thread about Loreen, previous to now, so I thought it was a topic right for discussion. In one comment, I even state clearly, "this isn't, necessarily a bad thing, if there are people who enjoy it." I then go on to say, it isn't to my personal taste. That's all!

Beyond that, I explained to you with your shaky knowledge, when and how those techniques are applied. Remember, I was trying to ascertain what you meant by "chintzy techniques." If you read back, it was you who started the discussion on voice alteration, by speculating about singers you obviously have zero knowledge on. You also go on to state that we have no idea what was going on in the studio, which is untrue. As there is a traceable history of any and all recording techniques used in the past, as well as who used them. You then chose to assert you do have knowledge, by stating you've listened to music. Nothing else, just that! Anything said, by me, about Loreen was no discussion at all, as there is obviously voice alteration techniques at work. I also say, that I can't judge her voice as I haven't heard it unaltered, by those techniques... Also, I'm not American, nor do I live in America. Not really important, but just a reminder that there's more than one continent on the planet. (But apparently, your comment did actually come across as funny to an actual American in this thread, who has a broader knowledge of music than you.)

"A Swede is raving about the quality..." Are you Swedish, now? You were Canadian a few comments ago! And, you use the vernacular of an Englishman. If you're referencing OP, being the Swede raving about quality, then I think I address this to, with my statement of musical taste being purely arbitrary. Basically, it doesn't matter what nationality you are to appreciate something. If you feel it, you feel it! The fact a Swede raves about a Swedish singer is of no relevance to the conversation. (If you're not talking about yourself, or OP here, can you please clarify this line, because in context it's completely nonsensical.)

Before you inevitably reply to this, (likely with a ton of lies, made up nonsense and meandering passive-aggressiveness), click "reply" on my comment first, otherwise I have no idea you've answered, until much later when I peruse the site, because I get no notification. Thank You!

(Lovely use of the phrase, "wrinkle your nose," though.)

I love having knowledgeable posters around - especially with music since I'm still very curious of the medium - but damn you come off as an arrogant prick. I don't know what triggered you like that, but we have an early contender for our annual look-at-me post of the year.

 

[illegalsmile]

I love having knowledgeable posters around - especially with music since I'm still very curious of the medium - but damn you come off as an arrogant prick. I don't know what triggered you like that, but we have an early contender for our annual look-at-me post of the year.

Haha. Achievement unlocked!

 

[Pranzo Oltranzista]

Haha. Achievement unlocked!

I was so expecting someone to come back to me with something like "Afraid someone will steal your crown?".

 

[illegalsmile]

I was so expecting someone to come back to me with something like "Afraid someone will steal your crown?".

Hey, "arrogant prick" is fine, when you're right, you're right... Saying I'm wrong would be bringing it.

 

[gswift]

 

[TheGreenTBer]

 

[sdf]

Sergey Esenin: "the Dark Man" (cherny chelovek). Poem

 

[ItsFineImFine]

I fookin' love being rich.

 

[beowulf]

 

[ItsFineImFine]

That is a good live version.

 

[TheGreenTBer]