Prospect Info: Welcome to Montréal, Jesperi Kotkaniemi (1st round pick, 3OA 2018 - signed ELC)

[BenchBrawl]

About Zadina, I understand he is a pure goalscorer? I'm ignorant.If he is, then good that we didn't pick him.It's hard to build a team around a goal scorer, nevermind a winger, unless you have all the pieces around him.Even with a goalscorer as exceptional as Ovechkin they barely succeeded at the end of his reign.

Rare are the teams that win with a winger as their franchise player.Ironically we had a dynasty around Guy Lafleur, but Lafleur was a rare combination of both goalscoring and playmaking, and let's face it we had three superstar defensemen, a superstar goalie and other great pieces like Lemaire to surround him, backed by an all-time great coach.Good luck recreating that.

When we had the mega-dynasty in the 50s, Maurice Richard was at the end of his career, and the team had Beliveau, Harvey, H.Richard, Plante, and other great wingers like Geoffrion and Moore.Maurice wasn't the best player on the team any longer, that was most likely Harvey who was at his peak winning his Norrises.

Chicago arguably had their best player as a winger with Kane, but Kane is a bit Lafleur-like, both clutch and capable of both goalscoring and playmaking.A rare breed for a winger, somewhat like Lafleur and Jagr.But they had a tremendous defense and Toews at center, when he was actually good.So again, you need the center and the defense in priority.

This is why Kotkaniemi was easily the best choice.

 

[Kriss E]

That just never going to happen, if he plays in the AHL he'll get a call up even if it's only for a couple games.

The only reason I'd want him in the AHL is if back in Finland he'd end up back on the wing.

I don't like the size in Europe. It's bigger, you get away with a lot more, I want him developing his ability to make plays under greater pressure.

 

[Kriss E]

About Zadina, I understand he is a pure goalscorer? I'm ignorant.If he is, then good that we didn't pick him.It's hard to build a team around a goal scorer, nevermind a winger, unless you have all the pieces around him.Even with a goalscorer as exceptional as Ovechkin they barely succeeded at the end of his reign.

Rare are the teams that win with a winger as their franchise player.Ironically we had a dynasty around Guy Lafleur, but Lafleur was a rare combination of both goalscoring and playmaking, and let's face it we had three superstar defensemen, a superstar goalie and other great pieces like Lemaire to surround him, backed by an all-time great coach.Good luck recreating that.

When we had the mega-dynasty in the 50s, Maurice Richard was at the end of his career, and the team had Beliveau, Harvey, H.Richard, Plante, and other great wingers like Geoffrion and Moore.Maurice wasn't the best player on the team any longer, that was most likely Harvey who was at his peak winning his Norrises.

Chicago arguably had their best player as a winger with Kane, but Kane is a bit Lafleur-like, both clutch and capable of both goalscoring and playmaking.A rare breed for a winger, somewhat like Lafleur and Jagr.But they had a tremendous defense and Toews at center, when he was actually good.So again, you need the center and the defense in priority.

This is why Kotkaniemi was easily the best choice.

Those are not arguments man...
Zadina or Kotkaniemi, we are not building a winning team around those guys. Zadina is pegged to be a 30-30 guy, Kotka is a 2nd line center.
They are not Kane, Ovechkin, Crosby. We are not talking about future superstars here.
I mean, if Kotk becomes one, then great, but that's not his projection.

 

[NotProkofievian]

I don't like the size in Europe. It's bigger, you get away with a lot more, I want him developing his ability to make plays under greater pressure.

He plays on a variety of ice surfaces in Finland. Some are actually smaller than NHL ice surface. His home ice surface is IIHF, though.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

About Zadina, I understand he is a pure goalscorer? I'm ignorant.If he is, then good that we didn't pick him.It's hard to build a team around a goal scorer, nevermind a winger, unless you have all the pieces around him.Even with a goalscorer as exceptional as Ovechkin they barely succeeded at the end of his reign.

Rare are the teams that win with a winger as their franchise player.Ironically we had a dynasty around Guy Lafleur, but Lafleur was a rare combination of both goalscoring and playmaking, and let's face it we had three superstar defensemen, a superstar goalie and other great pieces like Lemaire to surround him, backed by an all-time great coach.Good luck recreating that.

When we had the mega-dynasty in the 50s, Maurice Richard was at the end of his career, and the team had Beliveau, Harvey, H.Richard, Plante, and other great wingers like Geoffrion and Moore.Maurice wasn't the best player on the team any longer, that was most likely Harvey who was at his peak winning his Norrises.

Chicago arguably had their best player as a winger with Kane, but Kane is a bit Lafleur-like, both clutch and capable of both goalscoring and playmaking.A rare breed for a winger, somewhat like Lafleur and Jagr.But they had a tremendous defense and Toews at center, when he was actually good.So again, you need the center and the defense in priority.

This is why Kotkaniemi was easily the best choice.

There are more centermen in the league who are talented but being a centerman doesn't automatically make them more valuable. For many years the best players in the league were wingers. Richard, Hull, Howe, Lafleur.... Mike Bossy also led his team to multiple Stanley cups as he was probably the best player on that superstar team and we just saw Kane as the best player in Chicago lead his team to three cups.

I personally believe in drafting the best player available. If two players are closely talented then sure draft based on need. We'll see how this all works out. I haven't seen either of these guys so I have no opinion on them individually. Based on what I'd read coming in, Zadina seemed to have the higher ceiling but I guess we'll see.

I don't really care as long as we start getting players we can build around. We f***ed it up last time, let's not do that again.

 

[Kriss E]

He is physically not ready for the AHL grind. Staying in FEL will leave him more time to work on his skating and physique, because travelling times are way shorter. FEL is a good place to learn to play C. (See: Sebastian Aho. The Finnish one, I mean. )

The last thing I want to happen is some goon cheap shot him and start a journey along Concussion Avenue. (Those players exist in FEL too, but at least the league is doing their best in dealing out multi-game penalties for pretty much all head shots.)

I mean, I'm not going to play the worried mommy card, and this is the AHL. We have the ability to surround him as we please. Sign some goons, get big wingers to play next to him.

That is what we should have done with Galchenyuk too. Whoever you pick as your next top prospects, you need to surround those guys properly in every league.
I want him in the AHL so he adapts to the north american game asap. We also just brought in Bouchard specifically because he's great at developing kids. Make him earn his paycheck.

 

[Kriss E]

I think his age, rate of progression and mature game are what have me hyped up.

If he continues to progress like he has the last year, it's going to change alot of perceptions about this pick.

Maybe. I'm not a fan of his skating and I think he probably wouldn't have been as impressive in a NA league because he has a lot more space in Europe.
Ideally though, he will adapt quickly and easily.

 

[Kriss E]

He plays on a variety of ice surfaces in Finland. Some are actually smaller than NHL ice surface. His home ice surface is IIHF, though.

And how did he do on those smaller surfaces vs bigger ones?

 

[NotProkofievian]

And how did he do on those smaller surfaces vs bigger ones?

Pretty well, actually. He put up points against Vaasa and Rauma. In his highlight video where he beats 2 Liiga players for the puck before getting an assist, that was on a smaller ice surface. I think a more narrow ice surface will play to his advantages. He's a very rangey player (one of the widest wing spans in the draft and he uses a long stick), and with less ice to patrol it's a lot harder to get around him.

 

[Kriss E]

Pretty well, actually. He put up points against Vaasa and Rauma. In his highlight video where he beats 2 Liiga players for the puck before getting an assist, that was on a smaller ice surface. I think a more narrow ice surface will play to his advantages. He's a very rangey player (one of the widest wing spans in the draft and he uses a long stick), and with less ice to patrol it's a lot harder to get around him.

I don't really like highlight videos. Their purpose is specifically meant to show the best moments...Hardly ever a representation of overall game. Every prospect looks great according to their highlight reel.
That's not a knock on him but it doesn't show how he generally does with more limited space, how often he gets beaten to pucks, etc.

In any event, that is why I want him in NA, playing in tighter space versus faster and bigger players.

 

[Andrei79]

Maybe. I'm not a fan of his skating and I think he probably wouldn't have been as impressive in a NA league because he has a lot more space in Europe.
Ideally though, he will adapt quickly and easily.

He'd have murdered the CHL.

 

[NotProkofievian]

I don't really like highlight videos. Their purpose is specifically meant to show the best moments...Hardly ever a representation of overall game. Every prospect looks great according to their highlight reel.
That's not a knock on him but it doesn't show how he generally does with more limited space, how often he gets beaten to pucks, etc.

In any event, that is why I want him in NA, playing in tighter space versus faster and bigger players.

Jesperi Kotkaniemi – ProspectShifts.com

Here's some shift by shift videos. HPK has a smaller ice surface.

 

[Kriss E]

He'd have murdered the CHL.

Well, looking forward to seeing him develop next year.

 

[Kriss E]

Jesperi Kotkaniemi – ProspectShifts.com

Here's some shift by shift videos. HPK has a smaller ice surface.

Thanks

 

[Andrei79]

Well, looking forward to seeing him develop next year.

FWIW, plenty of terrible skaters produced good numbers in the CHL in recent years. You dont even have to look far, we had a wealth of them on our own roster and one guy who we just drafted, McShane, went ppg despite having some of the worst mechanics Ive seen for this year.

Kotkaniemi's skating isn't pretty, but he gets where needs to be and its not the issue some are trying to make it. I'm saying this as someone who does value speed and skating quite a bit. One thing that I don't understand is why singling him out as a player who benefits from time and space ? If anything, that would describe some of the guys we drafted out of the CHL. I'd say the opposite personnally: one thing that's endearing about JK is that his standout skills are translatable: strong down low, high compete and 2nd efforts, quick hands in tight, accurate shot from the slot, excellent use of Ds as screens, quick to find the open players.

And, if were talking production. Well, he had the 7th all time highest points this season for a player his age in Liifa. Think about Zadina, who was his age last year playing in Extraliga and struggling to get a point.

Another thing to keep in mind is his 5 nations performance on an NHL rink. The production didn't match how good he was, especially for a player who hadnt been a center in months. But, he was creating chances all over and after an adjustement period, he wrecked the Swedes. Its on hockeytv if you ever want to watch it.

 

[Kriss E]

FWIW, plenty of terrible skaters produced good numbers in the CHL in recent years. You dont even have to look far, we had a wealth of them on our own roster and one guy who we just drafted, McShane, went ppg despite having some of the worst mechanics Ive seen for this year.

Kotkaniemi's skating isn't pretty, but he gets where needs to be and its not the issue some are trying to make it. I'm saying this as someone who does value speed and skating quite a bit. One thing that I don't understand is why singling him out as a player who benefits from time and space ? If anything, that would describe some of the guys we drafted out of the CHL. I'd say the opposite personnally: one thing that's endearing about JK is that his standout skills are translatable: strong down low, high compete and 2nd efforts, quick hands in tight, accurate shot from the slot, excellent use of Ds as screens, quick to find the open players.

And, if were talking production. Well, he had the 7th all time highest points this season for a player his age in Liifa. Think about Zadina, who was his age last year playing in Extraliga and struggling to get a point.

Another thing to keep in mind is his 5 nations performance on an NHL rink. The production didn't match how good he was, especially for a player who hadnt been a center in months. But, he was creating chances all over and after an adjustement period, he wrecked the Swedes. Its on hockeytv if you ever want to watch it.

I don't put much value on such young prospects unless they are really pegged out to be superstars.
I mean, reread your post, it sounds like he's a borderline perfect player, and yet, plenty of people didn't even have him in the top 10.

I am not pretending to know enough about this kid. Will be interesting to see how he develops. How would he have managed in the CHL? Maybe you are right, he could have crushed it. Or not. A bit pointless to argue over as he didn't play there. I'm more interested in where he will be next season and how he'll do.
Personally, I'd prefer having him in Laval.

 

[NotProkofievian]

I don't put much value on such young prospects unless they are really pegged out to be superstars.
I mean, reread your post, it sounds like he's a borderline perfect player, and yet, plenty of people didn't even have him in the top 10.

I am not pretending to know enough about this kid. Will be interesting to see how he develops. How would he have managed in the CHL? Maybe you are right, he could have crushed it. Or not. A bit pointless to argue over as he didn't play there. I'm more interested in where he will be next season and how he'll do.
Personally, I'd prefer having him in Laval.

I'd be fine with him being in Laval. However, my argument for him staying in Liiga is that it's just one new thing: full time center against pros. When he moves to Laval it's several new things: new country, new coach, new schedule, and the new position playing against competition that he's never encountered before. I think he'd react well to it, but I also think he'll dominate in Liiga next year. Dominating your peers is an important thing to do along the way, especially early.

 

[Andrei79]

I don't put much value on such young prospects unless they are really pegged out to be superstars.
I mean, reread your post, it sounds like he's a borderline perfect player, and yet, plenty of people didn't even have him in the top 10.

I am not pretending to know enough about this kid. Will be interesting to see how he develops. How would he have managed in the CHL? Maybe you are right, he could have crushed it. Or not. A bit pointless to argue over as he didn't play there. I'm more interested in where he will be next season and how he'll do.
Personally, I'd prefer having him in Laval.

Why even mention it then if it's pointless ? You brought up that point in the first place. But, comparables say that, in all likelyhood, he'd have crushed the CHL.

Bob McKenzie's list, a consensus of 10 scouts - 8 of which are head scouts, had him 5th. Who are the people that had him passed 10 ? And in any case, why do you seem surprised that the 3rd OA pick in a strong draft at the top would have high end skills ? It still seems hard to accept he's a legit talent deserving of that spot. Four players produced "historic" numbers (meaning top 10 in their leagues for age- or in Svechs case, comparable to past 1st OAs) in their leagues: Dahlin, Svechnikov, Kotkaniemi and Wahlstrom. Yeah... Hes a good player with high potential.

 

[Kriss E]

Why even mention it then if it's pointless ? You brought up that point in the first place. But, comparables say that, in all likelyhood, he'd have crushed the CHL.

Bob McKenzie's list, a consensus of 10 scouts - 8 of which are head scouts, had him 5th. Who are the people that had him passed 10 ? And in any case, why do you seem surprised that the 3rd OA pick in a strong draft at the top would have high end skills ? It still seems hard to accept he's a legit talent deserving of that spot. Four players produced "historic" numbers (meaning top 10 in their leagues for age- or in Svechs case, comparable to past 1st OAs) in their leagues: Dahlin, Svechnikov, Kotkaniemi and Wahlstrom. Yeah... Hes a good player with high potential.

What is pointless is to go back and forth (argue), not bring up the point. Comparables show he'd have crushed it, well great then, did not know that. Not a fan of comparable, but it's better than them showing he wouldn't have done well I suppose.

I have no problem accepting he's a legit talent, as I said, I am not pretending to know enough about him.
Bobby Mac also had Tkachuk at #3, and from reading this board this would have been a massive fail of a pick.
I am not knocking on the guy, we will see how he develops.

 

[sandviper]

Keep in mind Kotkaniemi had a serious ACL injury last year and most of the first half of this season he was in recovery mode. I can't say if this made his skating look ugly, though having hurt my own knee a few times, I know it affects your regular skating technique. If you watched his U18 games, his skating does look remarkably better than it did in the highlight packages from earlier in the season.

 

[TheBuriedHab]

I don't really like highlight videos. Their purpose is specifically meant to show the best moments...Hardly ever a representation of overall game. Every prospect looks great according to their highlight reel.
That's not a knock on him but it doesn't show how he generally does with more limited space, how often he gets beaten to pucks, etc.

In any event, that is why I want him in NA, playing in tighter space versus faster and bigger players.

If you have time I'd definitely recommend watching Finland vs Sweden at the u18 tournament to see what this kid is all about, it's on YouTube. Granted it's on on the bigger ice surface but he was dominant this game. He still has a ways to go in development but you can see his raw potential and his high IQ. He also scores a laser on the pp in the first period. Craig Button couldn't stop talking about him during the game and you notice him every shift.

 

[Trilliann]

He plays on a variety of ice surfaces in Finland. Some are actually smaller than NHL ice surface. His home ice surface is IIHF, though.

His home ice is 58m x 28m, IIHF is 60 x 30

 

[Kaako Kappo]

The big ice argument is so dumb. How many real top prospects never graduated because of the ice size? Non-issue. But something that is always brought up.

 

[Et le But]

Maybe. I'm not a fan of his skating and I think he probably wouldn't have been as impressive in a NA league because he has a lot more space in Europe.
Ideally though, he will adapt quickly and easily.

Finland is a good middle ground in this regard - there's different rink sizes and grind-happy teams that take away space, but also less of the goons and cheapshot artists he'd be dealing with in the AHL.

 

[BB88]

I'm saying it in this thread but Kotka shouldn't be in the preseason, he should be in Finland getting ready for his season if Liiga is the way to go.

You don't want him to miss the start of the season.