Welcome to (failed) TED Talk - TED is dead.

[Bonsai Tree]

What was wrong with design and execution?
I believe the only real problem with Glendale was the perfect storm of economy tanking the lock out. These factors derailed design implementation and subsequent ownership, as well as enthusiasm.
But hey, maybe Burkey had it right all along.

A fully built out Westgate would have been stunning and would have created a profitable synergy between Westgate and the Coyotes.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Fiesta Mall location might work for hockey because the Coyote's have said many times that is where the fanbase is located, BUT, this development is more than just Coyote's. It's entertainment, residential etc. that needs to be successful. They need med to high end restaurants to want to lease space, and they need that high end dollar from people to fork over for living there. They need people visiting there to have disposable income to spend there. The demographics might be there for hockey, not sure if it works for everything else.

The demographics of the Fiesta Mall location is not the issue. The people in that area can afford to watch hockey, go to restaurants, and buy/rent condos every bit as much as people on the West Side could at Westgate.

The high-level issue is where the franchise's Bullseye is, and Fiesta Mall is a significant distance from it. The lower-level issues are whether the site has enough financial protection and franchise control ability to offset that distance issue.

What was wrong with design and execution?

Westgate was built piecemeal, and the original design changed so much over that timeframe due to economic and ownership issues that it's only now that the area is anywhere close to what it was meant to be. There's a whole lot of new high end entertainment development going in there (the new Mattel theme park, the Andretti karting and entertainment complex, etc.) but man, did it ever take forever for the conditions to be right for it.

 

[TheLegend]

What was wrong with design and execution?
I believe the only real problem with Glendale was the perfect storm of economy tanking the lock out. These factors derailed design implementation and subsequent ownership, as well as enthusiasm.
But hey, maybe Burkey had it right all along.

The execution part was Steve Ellman and the lack of his own financial strength to pull it off. The recession only exposed it to a greater degree.

15 years later Westgate is still not even half the development that was originally planned. It's a hodge podge of mini projects that are totally out of sync with each other.

A real developer would have been able to whether the storm. Ellman had a serious OPM addiction..

 

[cobra427]

Nobody knows for sure what criteria the Coyotes are using for site assessment, nor do we know the nature and depth of their dataset. But I can assure you that the most weighted factors are 1) ownership and control of any particular site and 2) the ability to defray or defer costs. Everything else is a long way down the priority list.

Murello is a successful operator and understands the entertainment business. I would guarantee the Coyotes have great data on what would be the best location, that is a huge piece of it with all the other things you mentioned. They aren't flying blind with location thoughts. The wrong location or set up has already been proven not to work in Phoenix. Murello won't make that mistake, which is why Fiestsa isn't ideal, I actually think its a non starter.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

There are a number of factors that have to be weighed when picking a location, and we all know they want to be in control of the site they pick as the Coyotes have said as much, but other factors will be in the equation.

Yeah, factors like money. Can the asshats foot the bill for the entire project w/o a tax district? Will they need partnership and if so how will that effect the bottom line and their willingness to partner.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

The execution part was Steve Ellman and the lack of his own financial strength to pull it off. The recession only exposed it to a greater degree.

15 years later Westgate is still not even half the development that was originally planned. It's a hodge podge of mini projects that are totally out of sync with each other.

A real developer would have been able to whether the storm. Ellman had a serious OPM addiction..

Glendale was such a mistake, and not just because (at the time) it was out in the middle of nowhere. Between Ellman's borderline grifter approach, Moyes' silent-partner incompetence, and the Glendale City Council's lack of due diligence, it was pretty much destined to fail from day one. It didn't help that the only person in the franchise's administration who had any vested interest in the West Valley was Moyes, and he fell apart like a wet napkin when Ellman left him holding the reins.

I personally believe that, based on the pace and amount of development and demographic change on this side of town right now, the best-case scenario of the Coyotes being over here predated the area's ability to support it by at least 20 years.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

The execution part was Steve Ellman and the lack of his own financial strength to pull it off. The recession only exposed it to a greater degree.

15 years later Westgate is still not even half the development that was originally planned. It's a hodge podge of mini projects that are totally out of sync with each other.

A real developer would have been able to whether the storm. Ellman had a serious OPM addiction..

Hence my post replying to Jakey, questioning the asshats ability and/or willingness to pull this off solo.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Murello won't make that mistake, which is why Fiestsa isn't ideal, I actually think its a non starter.

I wouldn't say that - but I think that the Fiesta Mall site doesn't have the "total package" that would make Meruelo want to build there, e.g.: a site big enough to build out the TED-esque site plan that the Coyotes designed; the ability to own it outright or at least lease it at a titanic discount; a metric ton of tax breaks and other cost-defraying elements that would protect Meruelo's pocketbook; etc.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I wouldn't say that - but I think that the Fiesta Mall site doesn't have the "total package" that would make Meruelo want to build there, e.g.: a site big enough to build out the TED-esque site plan that the Coyotes designed; the ability to own it outright or at least lease it at a titanic discount; a metric ton of tax breaks and other cost-defraying elements that would protect Meruelo's pocketbook; etc.

Big enough? I thought Fiesta had more acreage?
Edit: A quick check shows Fiesta at 80 acres and TED at 46.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Big enough? I thought Fiesta had more acreage?

The current site is "landlocked." It's hemmed in on one side by Mesa Community College's campus and surrounded by housing, hotel, and retail areas on the north and east sides that would siphon business off from the arena/condo multiplex. If it was just the arena, they could do a fairly nice build with a lot of good parking - but given that the team is hoping to use approximately the same build plan as they were in Tempe, that really hamstrings them if the site doesn't have some room to breathe.

If Fiesta Mall ends up being the site, I think they're going to have to do some major modifications of the site plan to fit it into the area. They may also have to buy out the existing restaurants and businesses on the periphery of the mall site, although I'm not entirely sure of that because I don't know the full extent of the ongoing demolition plan.

 

[AZviaNJ]

Did I mention Port Canaveral is right next to Cocoa Beach? You know, like in "I Dream of Jeannie"?

Sat next to Jeanie in a flight about 12 years back…dream indeed!

 

[TheLegend]

Hence my post replying to Jakey, questioning the asshats ability and/or willingness to pull this off solo.

Hence Ellman had to find Moyes (and Wayne Gretzky) to come up with the money needed to purchase the Coyotes to begin with.

Scottsdale was ready to go forward with the Los Arcos site if Ellman was willing to show his financial situation was strong enough to pull the project off. He refused to do it and it should have been a major red flag.

Out in Glendale you had Elaine Scruggs, who had this newly built freeway running through he town, and was dying to turn a bedroom community into a major business hub within Arizona to rival downtown Phoenix.

And the added bonus to get one over on Scottsdale at the same time.

All it cost Ellman was resurrecting an old big box shopping center that had been abandoned for close to ten years.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

The A+ location would be to bulldoze the Scottsdale Galleria. Right there between Old Town and The Entertainment District.

Won't happen of course, but can you imagine?

The other A location was of course the one we had in Tempe - and even if we do somehow manage to stay in Arizona long term, I'm gonna lament that not happening like it took me years to get over Los Arcos not happening.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

The other A location was of course the one we had in Tempe - and even if we do somehow manage to stay in Arizona long term, I'm gonna lament that not happening like it took me years to get over Los Arcos not happening.

Yeah, I'm gonna be salty about the TED not happening for the rest of my life, I think. I've said before that when Los Arcos fell through, my ideal location would have been where Tempe Marketplace now stands. And TED's proximity to ASU was just too perfect for synergy between the college and pro game growing together.

For me, the Galleria location isn't quite as prime as what I consider the Bullseye, just because it's too far from the 101. I think any new barn build has got to be right next to a major freeway artery to help more people make the trip to the games. The Talking Stick Resort area is in the same neighborhood as all the Galleria's swankiness, but with much better access.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

The current site is "landlocked." It's hemmed in on one side by Mesa Community College's campus and surrounded by housing, hotel, and retail areas on the north and east sides that would siphon business off from the arena/condo multiplex. If it was just the arena, they could do a fairly nice build with a lot of good parking - but given that the team is hoping to use approximately the same build plan as they were in Tempe, that really hamstrings them if the site doesn't have some room to breathe.

If Fiesta Mall ends up being the site, I think they're going to have to do some major modifications of the site plan to fit it into the area. They may also have to buy out the existing restaurants and businesses on the periphery of the mall site, although I'm not entirely sure of that because I don't know the full extent of the ongoing demolition plan.

I don’t think any of that Should matter for a site the asshats claim to be a destination that has nearly twice the acreage.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I don’t think any of that Should matter for a site the asshats claim to be a destination that has nearly twice the acreage.

It will, though. Why stay in a Meruelo-owned hotel on the arena site if you can just cross the street to the east and stay at the Marriott? Why pay Meruelo's rent if you can get an apartment a block away for less money and no site taxes that pay for the arena build?

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Sat next to Jeanie in a flight about 12 years back…dream indeed!

Did she grant you any wishes, or was it just Barbara Eden?

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Did she grant you any wishes, or was it just Barbara Eden?

Personally, I'd have preferred to sit next to Barbara Eden than an actual genie.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

It will, though. Why stay in a Meruelo-owned hotel on the arena site if you can just cross the street to the east and stay at the Marriott? Why pay Meruelo's rent if you can get an apartment a block away for less money and no site taxes that pay for the arena build?

Because it’s the “Rodeo Drive” of Arizona. “High end” destinations don’t necessarily need to be islands.

 

[rt]

TED was perfect. People are stupid.

 

[TheLegend]

Went back and listened to the interview XG did at the draft and at least one of the sites they’re looking at is much larger than TED.

They are going to use the renderings from TED as a guide as well. (as in the arena design with full ceiling mounted video isn’t changing)

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Personally, I'd have preferred to sit next to Barbara Eden than an actual genie.

IDK, Jeanie dressed well and then of course… the wishes!

 

[TheLegend]

TED was perfect. People are stupid.

More like gullable.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Because it’s the “Rodeo Drive” of Arizona. “High end” destinations don’t necessarily need to be islands.

Not in my wildest dreams do I ever conceive of Meruelo's hockey arena project being a "Rodeo Drive." But I also think that nobody looking for that sort of thing would go looking for it in the Fiesta Mall area, especially when the Galleria, Kierland Commons, and etc. are all up the road in Scottsdale.

TED was perfect. People are stupid.

Not just the voters, but Meruelo's folks too for totally misreading the situation.

Went back and listened to the interview XG did at the draft and at least one of the sites they’re looking at is much larger than TED.

That tells me that they're focused on the 101 "corridor" from Talking Stick down to the 202, which to me is their strongest bet.

IDK, Jeanie dressed well and then of course… the wishes!

Yeah, but Jeannie was a bit of a ditz, and Barbara... woof, she was the whole package.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Not in my wildest dreams do I ever conceive of Meruelo's hockey arena project being a "Rodeo Drive." But I also think that nobody looking for that sort of thing would go looking for it in the Fiesta Mall area, especially when the Galleria, Kierland Commons, and etc. are all up the road in Scottsdale.



Not just the voters, but Meruelo's folks too for totally misreading the situation.



That tells me that they're focused on the 101 "corridor" from Talking Stick down to the 202, which to me is their strongest bet.



Yeah, but Jeannie was a bit of a ditz, and Barbara... woof, she was the whole package.

Their words, not mine.
I’m told the asshats are THE guys who can turn around distressed assets, surely they can create a destination with a clean slate!