Post-Game Talk: We Blew a 3-0 Lead in the Third Period to the Oilers

[Machinehead]

Bc 200' NS hockey does not mean "drive the net"

You're ridiculous. Like amusingly ridiculous. You throw darts at everyone and then can't handle any criticism for pretending to be dense without attempting to again turn things into an insult back at the other person. It's an art for sure, and you do a very good job at constantly deflecting things and subtly ridiculing others. Things like above. You're not stupid and yet you play so ignorant just so you can try to morph things to make some sort of backhanded insult and use a word you saw in the newspaper this morning.

I continue to expect more respect out of a moderator around here towards the posters here. This isn't just with me, you do this stuff to anyone that pushes back against you on anything. It ends with some quip, snide insult and you try to move on. Please stop doing it to people

It doesn't mean ANYTHING.

I've pretty well exposed that here.

It is just with you.

 

[bleedblue94]

HFNYR has turned into a room full of toddlers crying about everything that isn't 100% positive.

We should just create an HFNYR alumni forum where we only allow people who were here prior to 2017

Please make this happen, maybe even a private Facebook group?

 

[TominNC]

Correct, that's what Hall of Famers (and leaders) would do. Let's lower expectations and think of a far lesser captain. Dion Phaneuf comes to mind.

So, to reset expectations, this: And Trouba couldn't even skate after him and stick a glove in his face.

What would Chris Drury have done?

Please make this happen, maybe even a private Facebook group?

Damn, I miss by less than 8 months

 

[bleedblue94]

It doesn't mean ANYTHING.

I've pretty well exposed that here.

It is just with you.

It is a concept in the game, you obviously haven't played anywhere of significance if you're trying to keep pretending it isn't in the vocab of every professional team anywhere.

You exposed nothing and you just chose to ignore the other posters who went back at you.

It isn't just me. Over the past week I've seen at least half a dozen posters make comments about your remarks and attitude towards others. If it's easier for you to pretend it's just me then go for it. I'm sure you can just start deleting my posts again where we disagree or ban me from a thread. That was funny last time.

 

[Machinehead]

It is a concept in the game, you obviously haven't played anywhere of significance if you're trying to keep pretending it isn't in the vocab of every professional team anywhere.

You exposed nothing and you just chose to ignore the other posters who went back at you.

It isn't just me. Over the past week I've seen at least half a dozen posters make comments about your remarks and attitude towards others. If it's easier for you to pretend it's just me then go for it. I'm sure you can just start deleting my posts again where we disagree or ban me from a thread. That was funny last time.

But it doesn't mean anything. Since last night, nobody can give a straight answer on what it is.

There are lots of platitudes in the vocab of professional hockey teams to the point where people make fun of every interview.

Full disclosure, I've never banned you from a thread, so obviously you're just not following the rules because somebody NOT arguing with you did it.

 

[bleedblue94]

But it doesn't mean anything. Since last night, nobody can give a straight answer on what it is.

There are lots of platitudes in the vocab of professional hockey teams to the point where people make fun of every interview.

Full disclosure, I've never banned you from a thread, so obviously you're just not following the rules because somebody NOT arguing with you did it.

But you did delete posts eh? Seems weird bc the post that was flagged nicely said you display traits of a narcissist and that I wasn't sure if you realized how some of it all comes off. Meanwhile you're able to passively call people idiots if they don't agree with you? Weird double standard

And I have given you answer. You just keep trying to drop your sarcastic replies to dance it. At some point it's not worth it to keep going and that probably why most people just give up with you. The NS thing is a perfect example. Multiple people criticized your comment that married cycling to NS hockey and rather than it being about that comment you turned it around to attack them for not giving you a satisfactory definition of NS hockey and proceeded to tell people they failed geography among other things. Like I said, it's skillful how you keep deflecting like that. It's taken years of internet talk but you are good at it, although it's not something I would be proud of.

 

[Machinehead]

But you did delete posts eh? Seems weird bc the post that was flagged nicely said you display traits of a narcissist and that I wasn't sure if you realized how some of it all comes off. Meanwhile you're able to passively call people idiots if they don't agree with you? Weird double standard

And I have given you answer. You just keep trying to drop your sarcastic replies to dance it. At some point it's not worth it to keep going and that probably why most people just give up with you. The NS thing is a perfect example. Multiple people criticized your comment that married cycling to NS hockey and rather than it being about that comment you turned it around to attack them for not giving you a satisfactory definition of NS hockey and proceeded to tell people they failed geography among other things. Like I said, it's skillful how you keep deflecting like that. It's taken years of internet talk but you are good at it, although it's not something I would be proud of.

Well, when you start calling me a narcissist, as you've done many times (only you BTW), that's when we just have to say that the conversation is getting personal and it's over.

And it's over.

 

[GbgRanger]

Please make this happen, maybe even a private Facebook group?

Will Dagoon44 and offdacrossbar be there?

 

[Crease]

But it doesn't mean anything. Since last night, nobody can give a straight answer on what it is.

There are lots of platitudes in the vocab of professional hockey teams to the point where people make fun of every interview.

Full disclosure, I've never banned you from a thread, so obviously you're just not following the rules because somebody NOT arguing with you did it.

I am jumping into this conversation late and without context, but I’ll bite.

“North-South” hockey is the concept of advancing the puck up the ice as quickly as possible and with as little lateral passing as possible. It’s conservative hockey, in the sense that it prioritizes getting the puck as far away from your own net as quickly as possible, even if it means giving up the puck via dump in, and avoiding lateral passes in the neutral zone, which, if intercepted, can lead to odd-man rushes the other way. “East-West” hockey says it’s okay to pass laterally or backwards if there is no way forward, and prioritizes possession over “the safe play” of the dump in. To your point, these are concepts, not actual X’s and O’s. It’s like a feel in pitching mechanics or the golf swing. Sometimes when the team isn’t moving the puck crisply or the other team is picking off passes in the neural zone, the coach will tell the guys to “get back to North-South” hockey.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

They win the last two games, and not even convincingly - they are 12-6-4, good enough for 3rd in the Met.

Instead they lose both and are out of a Wild Card spot at 10-8-4.

If they don’t make the dance you can look back to these two games

 

[bleedblue94]

Well, when you start calling me a narcissist, as you've done many times (only you BTW), that's when we just have to say that the conversation is getting personal and it's over.

And it's over.

I never called you one. I said you at times do things like one and as politely as I possibly could even said if you aren't aware of it maybe it is something to consider paying attention to change.

Again, you manipulate my words to make a quip reply. I have never once called you a narcissist.

 

[Crease]

Will Dagoon44 and offdacrossbar be there?

 

[Machinehead]

I am jumping into this conversation late and without context, but I’ll bite.

“North-South” hockey is the concept of advancing the puck up the ice as quickly as possible and with as little lateral passing as possible. It’s conservative hockey, in the sense that it prioritizes getting the puck as far away from your own net as quickly as possible, even if it means giving up the puck via dump in, and avoiding lateral passes in the neutral zone, which, if intercepted, can lead to odd-man rushes the other way. “East-West” hockey says it’s okay to pass laterally or backwards if there is no way forward, and prioritizes possession over “the safe play” of the dump in. To your point, these are concepts, not actual X’s and O’s. It’s like a feel in pitching mechanics or the golf swing. Sometimes when the team isn’t moving the puck crisply or the other team is picking off passes in the neural zone, the coach will tell the guys to “get back to North-South” hockey.

Literally all I was looking for. Amazing that you can have a discussion when you're willing to participate.

This is pretty much what I figured. Now, to follow up, there's a lot of dumping it in. Does this not inherently lead to forecheck and cycling assuming your dump-in was successful? Like, obviously it's not the exact same thing, but to me there's an obvious association there. I'm surprised by how set off some people were by that. We do cycle a lot, especially the kids, and do nothing with it.

Back to the Rangers, if that's the standard, then I stand by "this team isn't N/S enough" being a bit of a bizarre criticism. With the obvious exceptions of Fox and Panarin, I mostly find this team unwilling and/or unable to move laterally.

As for Panarin, specifically, he does make really poor lateral passes but 1) you sign up for that when you acquire him and 2) it reflects especially poorly when he's trying to do that and the team around him isn't conducive to doing that.

Besides Panarin, who on our team is an above average passer? Who on our team has penetrating, beat-a-guy-1v1-hands? Where's all the E/W play that's always a subject of criticism?

Some guys probably can, but they don't on the Rangers.

See, now we're cooking instead of screaming about semantics. Thank you, Crease.

 

[bleedblue94]

I am jumping into this conversation late and without context, but I’ll bite.

“North-South” hockey is the concept of advancing the puck up the ice as quickly as possible and with as little lateral passing as possible. It’s conservative hockey, in the sense that it prioritizes getting the puck as far away from your own net as quickly as possible, even if it means giving up the puck via dump in, and avoiding lateral passes in the neutral zone, which, if intercepted, can lead to odd-man rushes the other way. “East-West” hockey says it’s okay to pass laterally or backwards if there is no way forward, and prioritizes possession over “the safe play” of the dump in. To your point, these are concepts, not actual X’s and O’s. It’s like a feel in pitching mechanics or the golf swing. Sometimes when the team isn’t moving the puck crisply or the other team is picking off passes in the neural zone, the coach will tell the guys to “get back to North-South” hockey.

Don't try logic or introduce knowledgeable hockey information to this conversation. You'll ruin the NS hockey term is a fallacy rhetoric that is also accompanied by comments like E W hockey is a thing bc without it you can't have offense.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Will Dagoon44 and offdacrossbar be there?

I miss silverfish

 

[Crease]

Literally all I was looking for. Amazing that you can have a discussion when you're willing to participate.

This is pretty much what I figured. Now, to follow up, there's a lot of dumping it in. Does this not inherently lead to forecheck and cycling assuming your dump-in was successful? Like, obviously it's not the exact same thing, but to me there's an obvious association there. I'm surprised by how set off some people were by that. We do cycle a lot, especially the kids, and do nothing with it.

Back to the Rangers, if that's the standard, then I stand by "this team isn't N/S enough" being a bit of a bizarre criticism. With the obvious exceptions of Fox and Panarin, I mostly find this team unwilling and/or unable to move laterally.

As for Panarin, specifically, he does make really poor lateral passes but 1) you sign up for that when you acquire him and 2) it reflects especially poorly when he's trying to do that and the team around him isn't conducive to doing that.

Besides Panarin, who on our team is an above average passer? Who on our team has penetrating, beat-a-guy-1v1-hands? Where's all the E/W play that's always a subject of criticism?

Some guys probably can, but they don't on the Rangers.

See, now we're cooking instead of screaming about semantics. Thank you, Crease.

By forecheck, do you mean pound the defenders into the glass below the goal line? Yes, dump-ins will lead to that. Less so when you’re prioritizing carrying the puck into the zone via East-West hockey. But cycling in the offensive zone can happen happen under either style. Think of North-South and East-West as what you should be doing with the puck before you get to the offensive blue line. Once you get to the offensive blue line, under either approach, you can set up a cycling game.

Also, it’s like the relationship meme. It’s not one or the other. Get you a team that can do both. East-West when they’re feeling good and have the puck on a string. North-South for nights when they just don’t have a good feel for the puck, or the other team has really good neutral zone defense.

 

[Machinehead]

By forecheck, do you mean pound the defenders into the glass below the goal line? Yes, dump-ins will lead to that. Less so when you’re prioritizing carrying the puck into the zone via East-West hockey. But cycling in the offensive zone can happen happen under either style. Think of North-South and East-West as what you should be doing with the puck before you get to the offensive blue line. Once you get to the offensive blue line, under either approach, you can set up a cycling game.

Also, it’s like the relationship meme. It’s not one or the other. Get you a team that can do both. East-West when they’re feeling good and have the puck on a string. North-South for nights when they just don’t have a good feel for the puck, or the other team has really good neutral zone defense.

Pretty much agree with this.

I still say this team, is WRETCHED at moving through the neutral zone if that's what we're defining it is.

If that's the case, then I understand the idea of "just be more North/South" but you need East/West play also, as you alluded to. You can't default to "just dump it in" every shift, every night.

Again, I'm repeating myself, and maybe I just know nothing, but people talk about this team like they have hands at every position and don't do anything but skill. I just don't see it. I see the opposite.

Panarin and Fox are literally the only guys that I think have any ability to beat NHL defenders. Zibanejad has a good shot and has settled into a nice role, but he's no Gretzky when it comes to hands or passing. Doubly true for Kreider. Kakko and Lafrenire are grinders right now no matter what you think the cause of that is.

I get the logic. If we have this much skill and we don't succeed, we need to get better at the finer aspects of the game. I just don't see all the skill people talk about. I think this team is bottom ten in pure talent. I think they need two top six wingers either from inside or out, preferably in because that's orders of magnitude cheaper.

 

[Crease]

I still say this team, is WRETCHED at moving through the neutral zone if that's what we're defining it is.

If that's the case, then I understand the idea of "just be more North/South" but you need East/West play also, as you alluded to. You can't default to "just dump it in" every shift, every night.

Again, I'm repeating myself, and maybe I just know nothing, but people talk about this team like they have hands at every position and don't do anything but skill. I just don't see it. I see the opposite.

Panarin and Fox are literally the only guys that I think have any ability to beat NHL defenders. Zibanejad has a good shot and has settled into a nice role, but he's no Gretzky when it comes to hands or passing. Doubly true for Kreider. Kakko and Lafrenire are grinders right now no matter what you think the cause of that is.

I get the logic. If we have this much skill and we don't succeed, we need to get better at the finer aspects of the game. I just don't see all the skill people talk about. I think this team is bottom ten in pure talent. I think they need two top six wingers either from inside or out, preferably in because that's orders of magnitude cheaper.

I see a team with “enough skill” (they could really use another top six forward), but is playing like shit. Shit is not really a scientific term, so I’ll try to expand. They’re not hustling, so they’re not creating enough time and space for themselves to unleash their skill. I also see a lot of standing around in the neutral zone, not getting open, while watching Fox, Miller, and Schneider try to carry the puck in, which creates all sorts of issues. These are peewee level problems that can usually be fixed with some yelling from the coach, but they don’t seem to be responding to Gallant right now.

 

[Machinehead]

I think the early Quinn teams and sure as f*** the late AV teams could be accused of doing nothing but cross-ice passes.

Those teams actually had mitts all over the lineup - Zuccarello, Brassard, Hayes, Miller, Buchnevich, Nash. They also basically didn't cycle the puck AV's entire final season, which I was critical of.

It's changed a lot now. The possession has improved dramatically and they're very cycle heavy. You might even say too far the other way.

That's what it's important to talk about what we mean. We need more [enter vague term here]!" 95% of the time that just means "I want them to play better."

Yes.

 

[duhmetreE]

but @Edge and @ghostofjas will be there....

 

[Machinehead]

I see a team with “enough skill” (they could really use another top six forward), but is playing like shit. Shit is not really a scientific term, so I’ll try to expand. They’re not hustling, so they’re not creating enough time and space for themselves to unleash their skill. I also see a lot of standing around in the neutral zone, not getting open, while watching while Fox, Miller, and Schneider try to carry the puck in, which creates all sorts of issues.

See, I disagree a little bit with the characterization of "not hustling." I think the room isn't there because they're not good enough to create it. That's largely an in-house thing in my estimation. They don't work on getting better at tangible things. Lafreniere still can't f***ing skate. Why?

Now I do understand where folks are coming from. If you don't have the skill, go full 2011-12, run into everything mode. That team didn't win either, and I don't want to fall back into that when this organization eventually realizes they're not as talented as they think they are.

I still think "binning" is a problem. Under Quinn, you were a skill guy or a grit guy. I think that's still true under Gallant. Lafreniere and Kakko aren't blow-the-doors-off good enough to be "skill guys," so we're turning them into grinders.

I would like to see more flare from them and more basics from Panarin. If the team is going to do both, the players on the team have to give you a bit of both.

A rebuilding team desperately needed a coach with clear expectations to allow for that mix to come together. Not necessarily a hard-ass like Torts or a Hall of Famer like Trotz, but somebody who can say "do this clear thing and you'll play, I don't care who you are."

Instead, they got a coach who was extremely nebulous, followed by a pure players coach who's very much the AV "vibe guy" to come in after Torts instilled the expectations. We never did that part.

 

[romba]

Most coaches have little to nothing to do with the beginning of a player's career.

There are plenty of kids who come into the league every year who show their talents immediately. It's not because the coaches developed them.

WRONG

When they’re successful it’s obviously their inherent skill, when they fail it’s the coaching and development

 

[duhmetreE]

See, I disagree a little bit with the characterization of "not hustling." I think the room isn't there because they're not good enough to create it. That's largely an in-house thing in my estimation. They don't work on getting better at tangible things. Lafreniere still can't f***ing skate. Why?

Now I do understand where folks are coming from. If you don't have the skill, go full 2011-12, run into everything mode. That team didn't win either, and I don't want to fall back into that when this organization eventually realizes they're not as talented as they think they are.

I still think "binning" is a problem. Under Quinn, you were a skill guy or a grit guy. I think that's still true under Gallant. Lafreniere and Kakko aren't blow-the-doors-off good enough to be "skill guys," so we're turning them into grinders.

I would like to see more flare from them and more basics from Panarin. If the team is going to do both, the players on the team have to give you a bit of both.

A rebuilding team desperately needed a coach with clear expectations to allow for that mix to come together. Not necessarily a hard-ass like Torts or a Hall of Famer like Trotz, but somebody who can say "do this clear thing and you'll play, I don't care who you are."

Instead, they got a coach who was extremely nebulous, followed by a pure players coach who's very much the AV "vibe guy" to come in after Torts instilled the expectations. We never did that part.

I think the problem stems from no system or to put it mo' betta, they are given way to much free reign/leeway...

So, no one knows what the other is doing. A lot of 'reading and reacting' leads to players being flat footed and puck watching. There's no hard pressed system to follow. There's no 'I'm f1 in this scenario, this is my job, while f2 supports and f3 drives the middle. ( that's just an example )

I don't think we need to eradicate all creativity with a suffocating system but we need to be somewhere in the middle. It's currently freelance, do what you feel like hockey. Also modern day NHL utilizes a defenseman as a fourth forward essentially. We have none of that besides from Fox, but he's the exception not the rule. We're just a fundamentally poorly coached team IMO.

It kills me when I see Fox and/or Panarin with the puck, yet no one is even attempting to get open in the middle. If Sidney Crosby was on this team, he'd be pedestrian playmaker because there's no play to make. How many times does he find Guentzel in the slot? Watch New Jersey... they live in the slot. They have more one-time slot setups in one game than we've had all year. Standing in front of the goalie is not what I'm talking about.

 

[Machinehead]

I think the problem stems from no system or to put it better they are given way to much free reign/leeway...

So, no one knows what the other is doing. A lot of 'reading and reacting' leads to players being flat footed and puck watching. There's no hard pressed system to follow. There's no 'I'm f1 in this scenario, this is my job, while f2 supports and f3 drives the middle. ( that's just an example )

I don't think we need to eradicate all creativity with a suffocating system but we need to be somewhere in the middle. It's currently freelance, do what you feel like hockey.

It kills me when I see Fox and/or Panarin with the puck, yet no one is even attempting to get open in the middle. If Sidney Crosby was on this team, he'd be pedestrian playmaker because there's no play to make. How many times does he find Guentzel in the slot? Watch New Jersey... they live in the slot. They have more one-time slot setups in one game than we've had all year. Standing in front of the goalie is not what I'm talking about.

Pretty much agree. I think you can play "read and react" when you actually have overwhelming talent where the lineup just jumps off the paper when you write it down.

Some of the rhetoric surrounding the team seems to imply that, but they're far from it. I think all teams are in a cap league.

 

[and 99 others]

But you did delete posts eh? Seems weird bc the post that was flagged nicely said you display traits of a narcissist and that I wasn't sure if you realized how some of it all comes off. Meanwhile you're able to passively call people idiots if they don't agree with you? Weird double standard

And I have given you answer. You just keep trying to drop your sarcastic replies to dance it. At some point it's not worth it to keep going and that probably why most people just give up with you. The NS thing is a perfect example. Multiple people criticized your comment that married cycling to NS hockey and rather than it being about that comment you turned it around to attack them for not giving you a satisfactory definition of NS hockey and proceeded to tell people they failed geography among other things. Like I said, it's skillful how you keep deflecting like that. It's taken years of internet talk but you are good at it, although it's not something I would be proud of.

hfboards isn't worth getting this worked up about. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions about hockey, but if someone has proven to you that they are confidently wrong about concepts because they haven't played the game, it's really not worth getting this worked up about.