We are going to the playoffs, I think!

dogbazinho

Registered User
May 24, 2006
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What's a tank going to get us, really? It would be just as big a leap to move backward more than 2 spots in the standings, as to move forward 2 spots. I don't see any possibility that we could raise our lottery odds above 6%, from our current 2%. And doing that would suck for us as spectators. It would suck a lot.

For drafting, a tank improves the chances every round at taking the guy we want. So in your example, 2 spots each round, would be 14 chances our guy gets taken ahead of our pick. It's probably only a major issue the first three rounds or so as draft boards start to diverge. Imagine us drafting Jones instead of Lindholm or perhaps De La Rose instead of flipping the pick for a trade when our rumored target gets drafted. Imagine how different our draft would have looked last year if we had the 6th pick. Probably no Hanifin, maybe no Aho.

Lastly, a tank gives you the chance to give other players more playing time. I understand there may be disagreements as to whether this helps or hinders development but at the very least it would still be entertaining.

If this were the first time we've found ourselves close to the playoffs this time of year I'd be all for optimism. I think most that say tank are really saying we want something different. A plan that takes us out of a pattern that we've seen over the last several years. I feel that plan is taking a franchise player in the draft. The easiest and surest way to do that is through a tank.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
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To build on what Tarheel said. Right now Canes are 18th in the NHL (based on % of points). There are 6 teams ahead of them that are all within 4 points of the Canes current point total. There are 7 teams below them within 4 points of the Canes current point total. So that's 13 teams that are +/- 4 points of the Canes right now.

While nothing is impossible, IMO, there are just too many teams between them and a playoff spot and also between them and 24th place for the Canes to rise or drop too far. The way Carolina has been playing since the beginning of December also leads me to believe they won't fall off a cliff like EDM or TOR so while they may drop or rise a few points in the standing, I don't see their draft position moving much and they'll likely be in the middle of the round.

Hopefully they still sell and gain add'l picks and assets though.
 

Hulkacaniac

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Jun 4, 2015
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If we sell off, I still think we can really start to do some damage and get into the playoffs starting next season. If the salary cap doesn't change much as some are predicting, RF could make more deals like the Chicago trade and maybe have an upper hand in free agency with all the cap space.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
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If we sell off, I still think we can really start to do some damage and get into the playoffs starting next season. If the salary cap doesn't change much as some are predicting, RF could make more deals like the Chicago trade and maybe have an upper hand in free agency with all the cap space.

As long as the goaltending is adequate from day 1 and the team doesn't put themselves in such a hole in Oct/Nov, I think it's possible based on how they've played for the last 2.5 months.
 

Ole Gil

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May 9, 2009
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To build on what Tarheel said. Right now Canes are 18th in the NHL (based on % of points). There are 6 teams ahead of them that are all within 4 points of the Canes current point total. There are 7 teams below them within 4 points of the Canes current point total. So that's 13 teams that are +/- 4 points of the Canes right now.

While nothing is impossible, IMO, there are just too many teams between them and a playoff spot and also between them and 24th place for the Canes to rise or drop too far. The way Carolina has been playing since the beginning of December also leads me to believe they won't fall off a cliff like EDM or TOR so while they may drop or rise a few points in the standing, I don't see their draft position moving much and they'll likely be in the middle of the round.

Hopefully they still sell and gain add'l picks and assets though.

I think the key, is doing what's best for the team for the next 3 years. That's going to be the window where they have a ton of cap room, and a really good defense locked up for small amounts of money.

Gaining 3 spots and 8% or whatever in the lottery has value. But not enough that I would jeopardize any success in the near future to do it. That being said, I have no idea what the options are going forward in terms of return for the pieces/free agency/the draft.

I just assume that all of these things are taken into consideration.

The playoff picture is interesting. They actually don't have to jump to many teams to get in. And more importantly, there are a LOT of teams that can be caught in that 6'ish point range. The problem is the Canes don't appear to be good enough to get it done. The issue isn't the other teams, to me, it's the margin of error.
 

the halleJOKEL

strong as brickwall
Jul 21, 2006
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its the first time in a long time our FO has actually had to make a tough call on something, and for once i actually believe that they have the people in place to do whats right to put this team regularly back in contention
 

RodTheBawd

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Oct 16, 2013
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So after that start, if they make the playoffs, will it have been an historic run, unlike that of Ottawa last season? :sarcasm:
 

The Stranger

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May 4, 2014
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As long as the goaltending is adequate from day 1 and the team doesn't put themselves in such a hole in Oct/Nov, I think it's possible based on how they've played for the last 2.5 months.

In the first 25 games of the year, the team went 8-13-4. Shooting % was 6.6 and save % was 88.3.

In the following 31 games, the team has gone 17-8-6. Shooting % has risen to 9.3 and save % has risen to 91.7.

December 3rd was the terrible game (25th) against NJ...coaching staff was pissed with team play...called up Slavin, PDG, and McGinn.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/hurricanes-demote-murphy-and-recall-slavin-mcginn-di-giuseppe/

This was the major turning point in the season. McGinn didn't stick, but PDG and Slavin have made a big impact in team play.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
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In the first 25 games of the year, the team went 8-13-4. Shooting % was 6.6 and save % was 88.3.

In the following 31 games, the team has gone 17-8-6. Shooting % has risen to 9.3 and save % has risen to 91.7.

December 3rd was the terrible game (25th) against NJ...coaching staff was pissed with team play...called up Slavin, PDG, and McGinn.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/hurricanes-demote-murphy-and-recall-slavin-mcginn-di-giuseppe/

This was the major turning point in the season. McGinn didn't stick, but PDG and Slavin have made a big impact in team play.

Yep, agree. They turned it around after that stinker.
 

Discipline Daddy

Brentcent Van Burns
Nov 27, 2009
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Raleigh, NC
In my opinion Jaccob Slavin has been as good or better than Hanifin many nights. I value him as one of the highest assets in our organEYEzation. I think I'd go:

1) Justin Faulk
2) Noah Hanifin
3) Jeff Skinner
4) Jaccob Slavin
5) Elias Lindholm
6) Victor Rask
7) Jordan Staal
8) Haydn Fleury? Not sure here
Pesce/Aho/Carrick/McKeown/LaRose/DesRoschers/Heereema
 

Navin R Slavin

Fifth line center
Jan 1, 2011
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So let's define "tank".

If people who say "tank" mean "deliberately try to reduce the team's result by making otherwise irrational decisions in an attempt to improve draft position", then that's a pretty bad idea.

If people who say "tank" mean "move as many expiring/aging assets as possible to gain future assets and let the chips fall where they may", then I'm not necessarily against that. BUT: I think that in this definition of "tank", we may end up winning way more games than people suspect.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
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So let's define "tank".

If people who say "tank" mean "deliberately try to reduce the team's result by making otherwise irrational decisions in an attempt to improve draft position", then that's a pretty bad idea.

If people who say "tank" mean "move as many expiring/aging assets as possible to gain future assets and let the chips fall where they may", then I'm not necessarily against that. BUT: I think that in this definition of "tank", we may end up winning way more games than people suspect.

Yeah, pretty much agree. I think of Tanking as the former, or at least being so aggressive in selling off assets that it's impossible to be competitive (although that probably fits into he "irrational" category). Basically EVERY team is going to do the latter and would be foolish not to.

As to winning more games that we suspect, I probably agree but it depends on who is moved and what other injuries occur.

PROS:
1) The thing you see when young guys are called back up is that they are aggressive, hungry and play hard.
2) Peter's system is a possession game that limits shots. Losing a couple of UFA's to be isn't likely to have a huge impact on that.
3) Recently, the Canes success hasn't been 1 guy as we are seeing contributions across the board (Jordan, Nestrasil, Skinner, Rask, etc...)

CONS:
1) We don't have a lot of quality call-ups left to call upon with Pesce, Slavin, PDG, and Rask all making the jump in the past 2 seasons.
2) I'm still not confident Lack can play at a high enough level if Ward goes (can't believe I'm writing that).
3) Guys like Staal and Versteeg are leaders that eat up a lot of minutes and get a lot of focus from opposing teams. If they leave, can other guys really fill the void and not see their play degrade?

Will be interesting to see, but I don't think they'll fall off a cliff if they unload the UFA's to be.
 

Sens1Canes2

Registered User
May 13, 2007
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Getting rid of Staal, Versteeg and Liles will cripple the playoff possibilities. They'd have no chance IMO.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
48,544
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Getting rid of Staal, Versteeg and Liles will cripple the playoff possibilities. They'd have no chance IMO.

True, they'd do worse and not make the playoffs (although I don't think they honestly have much, if any of a chance now). I just don't think they would fall off a cliff Toronto style though.
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
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For drafting, a tank improves the chances every round at taking the guy we want. So in your example, 2 spots each round, would be 14 chances our guy gets taken ahead of our pick. It's probably only a major issue the first three rounds or so as draft boards start to diverge. Imagine us drafting Jones instead of Lindholm or perhaps De La Rose instead of flipping the pick for a trade when our rumored target gets drafted. Imagine how different our draft would have looked last year if we had the 6th pick. Probably no Hanifin, maybe no Aho.

But we're not going to move back to 6th this year. Chances are that we slide back from our current 13th to 10th or so. That's meaningful in the first round, slightly meaningful in the second, and trivial afterward. Even in the first round, it might not make a difference at all.

Lastly, a tank gives you the chance to give other players more playing time.

We're already playing 3 rookies and Faulk on defense. Murphy isn't sticking and the only other guy is Carrick, who's a 7D in the NHL.

There's no forward in Charlotte knocking the door down for an NHL spot -- McGinn, Tolchinsky, Karlsson, Woods and Brown are all very much AHL quality players for now.

If we had NHL-quality guys stashed in Charlotte, I'd be all for bringing them up. But IMO what we'd be doing in reality would be promoting unprepared players into limited roles with the Hurricanes, which isn't really helpful for either side of the equation.

More importantly, we'd be providing guys like Hanifin and Slavin and Di Giuseppe with a strong taste of loser culture in their first NHL seasons. That's the biggest thing I'd like to avoid here. Teach these kids to win games, to scrap for points. Not to skate meaningless shifts on a team that's losing on purpose.

And that extends to the fans too. We've seen a ton of bad hockey the past few years. Personally I'm pretty sick of having a team that just rolls over, goes to their happy places, and takes it willingly. It was one thing when we had a bunch of broken-down vets under a clueless coach and GM. But now we have a young team with a good coach and a smart GM. I want to see these guys establish the foundation of a team that plays hard for each other, with pride on the line if nothing else. I want them to at least get close enough to a playoff spot to really start stretching for it.

I think most that say tank are really saying we want something different. A plan that takes us out of a pattern that we've seen over the last several years. I feel that plan is taking a franchise player in the draft. The easiest and surest way to do that is through a tank.

Not sure what you mean about the past several years. We've been sellers at the past two deadlines.

And our only chance at drafting a franchise player in the ~10 range is dumb luck. There won't be a McDavid or Eichel hanging around where we're drafting.
 

Sens1Canes2

Registered User
May 13, 2007
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It's a very odd person (IMO) that believes the foundation *hasn't* been laid already and the rest is just icing on the cake.

We've already had the worst year(s) we're gonna have. We got Lindholm, Fleury and Hanifin in the top-10. We already have two firsts in this year's draft and a bunch in the top-100.

ESPECIALLY now that recent draftees are actually playing quality NHL minutes, now is not the time to sell everything. Now's the time to start establishing a reputation around the league as a franchise on the way up for years to come. Because we'll need UFA's at some point. Now is as good a time as any to start winning.
 

Sens1Canes2

Registered User
May 13, 2007
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Maybe not. But imagine the kinds of things a smart GM can do with 4 1sts on draft day.

True again. That would be one way to acquire good veteran players...although you *usually* don't find teams want to jettison good players on good contracts. There's always exceptions, of course.
 

seafoam

Soft Shock
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May 17, 2011
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Don't know where to put this, but would Carolina be interested in moving Ron Hainsey?

As a NYI fan, I think they could benefit from adding a left handed defenseman capable of playing both sides and filling in a #4 role with a strong partner, but really suited for a bottom pairing role.

Hainsey, if I remember correctly, played the left side with Hanifin the other night and has generally gotten a lot of ice time during his tenure in Carolina. With Hamonic's trade request, Hainsey's extra year on his contract would actually be welcomed (in my opinion at least).

Maybe my valuation of him is way off, and maybe he's not available, but I thought I'd ask. Thanks!
 

Chan790

Registered User
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Jan 24, 2012
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Don't know where to put this, but would Carolina be interested in moving Ron Hainsey?

Possibly? I don't know, it's hard to tell as the answer is tied to How comfortable is the Canes FO and coaching staff with the possibility of going into next season with a defense made up of Faulk, Wiz, 3 2nd-year players (Hanifin, Pesce, Slavin) and a rookie that almost made the Canes out of camp this year?(Fleury)

They may be comfortable with moving Hainsey for value...they may want to keep him for veteran presence and leadership.

Who knows?
 

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