WCSF Gm 5 ... too little too late

[BigKing]

My post wasn't directed at you. It keeps getting brought up though so that's why I threw that out there.

If this is for me, it wasn't directed at you but just to everyone in general.

I am happy he is the goaltender of my favorite team. It would of been nice to be able to insert him into this squad on an ELC once they were ready to compete, however. Anaheim is in the catbird's seat if Gibson is the real deal.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

No need to get so defensive about Quick. I didn't say that you don't pay the man but, unfortunately, you have to step up and pay the guy after he delivers the Cup, much like Chicago did with Crawford and possibly would have with Niemi if they weren't so up against it. It's basically the downside of winning: the players that played the biggest part are going to get paid and it's up to the GM to pick the right ones to pay.

Chicago obviously chose the right ones when they jettisoned much of the 2010 team: Kane/Toews/Keith/Seabrook/Sharp. They bowed out in the 1st round two years in a row--although they went 7 games with the eventual WC Champ and then got bounced after a 100 point season and the Hossa injury--and then won the whole thing again. It remains to be seen if they will be able to do it again though by adding the large cap hit in net going forward.

I'm not sitting here saying that this team is better off without Quick. His contract is frightening though due to the term and you are simply ignoring history and wanting to believe it will all be okay if you think the term is perfectly fine.

This team won the Cup with low cap hits for the Conn Smythe winner and the captain who was around a point-per-game. You can throw in Voynov's low number into that equation as well.

Fast forward two seasons and you've got nobody of significance on a low cap hit except for Muzzin/Pearson/Toffoli and arguably Williams and the veteran defensemen vs. market value. That is the making of a team built to win right now and not necessarily for the future, unless all those on significant cap hits are just entering their primes. Unfortunately, Richards is not entering his prime and Brown does not look like it either.

The Richards contract needs to be jettisoned this off season via the buyout or, at the least, another bad contract that ends quickly. A second round exit will be another year taking a step backwards with little cap space to improve upon an aging roster.

Sorry if that came off as defensive, I was just trying to give some counterpoints. The TLDR version is what would you suggest as an alternative? Maybe offer a shorter contract or such? I just don't think you criticism about contracts is really fair. Guys perform, we win the cup, but guys perform and they also get paid. You're not going to have the Voynovs et. al. on cheapie deals forever; you replace the spare parts with Toffolis and Pearsons, rinse, and repeat.

How many of the true contenders are far under the cap? How many of them are built significantly differently than the Kings? Fact is, all the true contenders will deal with contract issues sooner or later as good players get their money. I agree with you on the Richards/Brown contracts being the big obstacles, but that's sure a lot better than losing Versteeg and Byfuglien to a fax machine.

 

[Herby]

How many of the true contenders are far under the cap? How many of them are built significantly differently than the Kings? Fact is, all the true contenders will deal with contract issues sooner or later as good players get their money. I agree with you on the Richards/Brown contracts being the big obstacles, but that's sure a lot better than losing Versteeg and Byfuglien to a fax machine.

The Kings have a pretty insane amount of career contracts, and the scary thing about it is, none of those are being used on the best three skaters on the team in Doughty, Kopitar and Gaborik. As BigKing mentioned, Doughty and Kopitar are each going to be in the 8+ mill range when it comes time to re-sign.

I don't blame Lombardi for Richards, atleast not yet. When he acquired Mike Richards three years ago there was simply no way anyone outside of Nostradamus could have foreseen the complete collapse. Fortunately for Dean he has the option of either finding a sucker, and if that doesn't happen, he has a get out of jail free card that was negotiated into the CBA in the compliance buyout. There is no reason that the Kings should ever have to worry about that $34.5 million over the next six seasons. However, if Dean fails to get rid of that contract then the blame falls squarely on him, and that is what BigKing was saying about this being a huge summer for the Kings. And it will effect not only this coming years roster, but the roster for years to come.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

The Kings have a pretty insane amount of career contracts, and the scary thing about it is, none of those are being used on the best three skaters on the team in Doughty, Kopitar and Gaborik. As BigKing mentioned, Doughty and Kopitar are each going to be in the 8+ mill range when it comes time to re-sign.

I don't blame Lombardi for Richards, atleast not yet. When he acquired Mike Richards three years ago there was simply no way anyone outside of Nostradamus could have foreseen the complete collapse. Fortunately for Dean he has the option of either finding a sucker, and if that doesn't happen, he has a get out of jail free card that was negotiated into the CBA in the compliance buyout. There is no reason that the Kings should ever have to worry about that $34.5 million over the next six seasons. However, if Dean fails to get rid of that contract then the blame falls squarely on him, and that is what BigKing was saying about this being a huge summer for the Kings. And it will effect not only this coming years roster, but the roster for years to come.

I don't really disagree, but let's not pretend Doughty and Kopitar were on short term deals. I know in comparison to Richards/Carter they were short, but i don't doubt they'll be locked up long term too to join Quick/Brown. I guess i'll answer my own question:

Chicago:

-Hossa is locked up forever at 5.2, yay old CBA.
-Kane and Toews both at 6.3, UFA in 2015-2016. Gonna get paid like Kopitar, maybe more.
-Sharp at 5.9 till 2017.
Seabrook at 5.8 till 2016
Hammer at 4.1 (extension) from next year till 2018.
Kieth till infinity (2023!) at 5.5. Yay old CBA--do you think that's a bad contract?
Crawford from next year till 2020 at 6 million. Thoughts?

Boston:

Bergeron at 6.5 starting next year till 2022.
Chara nearing the end of his career at 6.9 till 2016 (and 4 after that--what's going on there)
Rask at 7 million until 2021.
Seidenberg at 4 million from next year till 2018.
Lucic at 6 until 2016
Marchand at 4.5 until 2017

(all of this makes Boston look like the best in the business imo)

Pittsburgh:
Malkin 9.5 till 2022
Crosby 8.7 till 2025
Neal 5 till 2018
Dupuis and Kunitz around 3.7/3.8 till 2017
Letang 7.2 until 2022
Fleury 5 until 2015 (was a 7 year contract).


So again I ask, how different are the Kings?

Kopitar 6.8 till 2018 (pay that man!)
Carter 5.2 (steal, imo) until infinity (2022)
Richards 5.75 until 2020 (could be a bargain if he were 75% the man he was...)
Brown 5.8 until 2022
Doughty 7 until 2019
Voynov 4.1 until 2019
Quick 5.8 until 2023

The biggest differences in construction, to me, are that they're getting more out of their ELCs/roleplayers/spare parts and that the contracts were just signed at different times or at rate instead of term. We need to squeeze more out of our bottom six, and we need our top guys to be our top guys. When you sign them to term, you're saying I believe in you to have many more good years than bad, but we're willing to give you value for the bad years, too (Brown, Richards, Voynov--and the problem right now is we're evaluating these contracts on this last year, and we don't know if that's the aberration or the trend going forward). If they don't turn around, then yes, ugh.

We're getting bent out of shape over issues similar teams have similar problems with, just variations. It will be fine.

Any other contenders we want to look at for comparison?

 

[BigKing]

Spot on, Herby.

Brad...I can't really suggest an alternative. You had to pay the guy and he gives the Kings a great chance to win every game he plays for the most part. It just comes down to having a ton of long-term contracts on the roster that could cripple this team not only down the line but in the very near future. Lombardi has two mulligans he can use this summer and then they are gone. For what Richards is bringing, that cap hit would be much better used somewhere else while you hope a Vey or Shore can produce similar--if not better- numbers at a fraction of the cost in his place.

I know some one here crap on Vey, but he has proven chemistry with two young wingers who are playing at a high level in the NHL Playoffs. It will be a travesty if that line never gets the chance to play together at the NHL level.

All this being said, I don't think he will buy Richards out. I made a bet with DaDucks after Game 4 of the WCF last year that the Kings would have a better next five years than Anaheim. Since I made that bet, it was destined for the Kings to lose to the Ducks in the playoffs and that Lombardi ensures I lose the next four years of the bet as well.

 

[KingKopitar11*]

If we can get rid of Richards and Brown bounces back, contract wise we are solid

 

[BigKing]

Any other contenders we want to look at for comparison?

The problem for me is that LA's core is not as good as the ones listed. LA has 11/8/32/77 as the core as far as I'm concerned with 10/23/26 not earning their contracts. Still time for 26 and I'm sure 23 will have a better season than the current one at some point, but 10 has gone downhill quick since the Bergenheim concussion. He then stepped it up for the Cup run and last year's playoffs...then Bolland concussed him again.

He's a shell of himself at this point and his contract looks horrible compared to the list you just provided. It is also one of the longest.

Love the guy. Own a jersey. Thanks for the contributions. I want this team to compete for a Cup every year and I think it will be difficult when you are carrying around a $5.75M 4th line center who also happens to be the worst defensive forward on the team.

Oh, and if you want to be depressed, go and look at Anaheim's Cap Geek page. The contracts they have coming off next year are guys they didn't rely on too much during the year. No large raises needed and like $11M coming off the cap before it goes up even more. 10th overall draft pick in this years draft and a deep prospect pool that could allow them to add a Kesler type. Pat Maroon crushing it at $575K while we are sitting here needing to give Dwight King a raise.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Spot on, Herby.

Brad...I can't really suggest an alternative. You had to pay the guy and he gives the Kings a great chance to win every game he plays for the most part. It just comes down to having a ton of long-term contracts on the roster that could cripple this team not only down the line but in the very near future. Lombardi has two mulligans he can use this summer and then they are gone. For what Richards is bringing, that cap hit would be much better used somewhere else while you hope a Vey or Shore can produce similar--if not better- numbers at a fraction of the cost in his place.

I know some one here crap on Vey, but he has proven chemistry with two young wingers who are playing at a high level in the NHL Playoffs. It will be a travesty if that line never gets the chance to play together at the NHL level.

All this being said, I don't think he will buy Richards out. I made a bet with DaDucks after Game 4 of the WCF last year that the Kings would have a better next five years than Anaheim. Since I made that bet, it was destined for the Kings to lose to the Ducks in the playoffs and that Lombardi ensures I lose the next four years of the bet as well.

I blame you for everything bad that happens to this team in the next 5 years

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

The problem for me is that LA's core is not as good as the ones listed. LA has 11/8/32/77 as the core as far as I'm concerned with 10/23/26 not earning their contracts. Still time for 26 and I'm sure 23 will have a better season than the current one at some point, but 10 has gone downhill quick since the Bergenheim concussion. He then stepped it up for the Cup run and last year's playoffs...then Bolland concussed him again.

He's a shell of himself at this point and his contract looks horrible compared to the list you just provided. It is also one of the longest.

Love the guy. Own a jersey. Thanks for the contributions. I want this team to compete for a Cup every year and I think it will be difficult when you are carrying around a $5.75M 4th line center who also happens to be the worst defensive forward on the team.

I'd argue it's on par with Boston, debateable with Pitt (investment in forwards vs. D/goalies), and less than Chicago just because imo they're the class of the league. If we compared it to anyone else, for the most part, I think we'd be pleased. I don't disagree at all with the guys not earning their parts this year in 23/10/26; I just think we have to look at the bigger picture, and as you say 26 is probably just sophomore slumping, 23 could go either way though I think he'll rebound because personally I think he's been hampered by the knee, 10 I just don't know what to think.

Edit we can agree to disagree, thanks for the thoughts/debate. I just don't want this whole board getting whipped up about contracts when really there's a few eminently fixable (imo) issues with an above-average-at-worst core. Especially if the cap goes up closer to 71 than 68.

 

[Herby]

Richards is the worst contract on the list, and right now it's not even close. Letang has issues but it's mostly with his health and be can be LTIR if the stroke were to end his career. Fleury is also a bad contract but it ends after next season, Pittsburgh has no commitment to him.

Duncan Keith signed until 2023, well that leaves him at 39 years old when the contract expires, I could honestly see him playing that long and at a high level, just the style of play and the position. Macinnis, Chelios, Lidstrom all lasted that long.

The fact remains that two guys on that list had pathetic seasons and they are both members of the Kings, and they also happen to be two of the longer contracts on the list. As long as the rest of the players continue at a high level they can't be compared to Richards and Brown.

 

[Reclamation Project]

I would gladly swap someone like Gagner for Richards simply to cut a bunch of years off the end of the contract. Gagner only has two more years on his contract (maybe one).

 

[Reclamation Project]

"Everybody is gonna leave everything out there tomorrow, we're confident we can get back to Anaheim." - Gaborik.

Well, let's hope everyone shows up. I know one guy who will.

 

[BigKing]

Richards is the worst contract on the list, and right now it's not even close. Letang has issues but it's mostly with his health and be can be LTIR if the stroke were to end his career. Fleury is also a bad contract but it ends after next season, Pittsburgh has no commitment to him.

Duncan Keith signed until 2023, well that leaves him at 39 years old when the contract expires, I could honestly see him playing that long and at a high level, just the style of play and the position. Macinnis, Chelios, Lidstrom all lasted that long.

The fact remains that two guys on that list had pathetic seasons and they are both members of the Kings, and they also happen to be two of the longer contracts on the list. As long as the rest of the players continue at a high level they can't be compared to Richards and Brown.

Precisely. There is only so much to go around so you better marry the right guys. Kings have some great players, no doubt, but the Richards committment is ridiculous.

In regards to Keith, he's about win his 2nd Norris and he is only a $5.5MM cap hit. That's crazy. That cap hit affords them Keith/Seabrook/Superintendent v. the Kings Doughty/Voynov/??? and Voynov may as well have the question marks too at this point. Let's all pray that McNabb can be a solid #4.

As an aside, tickets for tomorrow are at $70 a piece, down from around $150 for Game 3. The bandwagon has thrown a wheel. Fearing that Ducks fans may jump on that price and be there in larger numbers than usual: especially since they generally only show up in LA in decent numbers when they feel good about winning.

 

[Reclamation Project]

Precisely. There is only so much to go around so you better marry the right guys. Kings have some great players, no doubt, but the Richards committment is ridiculous.

In regards to Keith, he's about win his 2nd Norris and he is only a $5.5MM cap hit. That's crazy. That cap hit affords them Keith/Seabrook/Superintendent v. the Kings Doughty/Voynov/??? and Voynov may as well have the question marks too at this point. Let's all pray that McNabb can be a solid #4.

As an aside, tickets for tomorrow are at $70 a piece, down from around $150 for Game 3. The bandwagon has thrown a wheel. Fearing that Ducks fans may jump on that price and be there in larger numbers than usual: especially since they generally only show up in LA in decent numbers when they feel good about winning.

Gotta smoke em then.

 

[BigKing]

Might need to remove Pittsburgh from that list of contenders

 

[KingsHockey24]

Brown is getting paid 6M??

 

[KingsHockey24]

Imagine if we had the 2005 JW, 2007 Brownie and 2008 Richards..

We would be.. good.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Precisely. There is only so much to go around so you better marry the right guys. Kings have some great players, no doubt, but the Richards committment is ridiculous.

In regards to Keith, he's about win his 2nd Norris and he is only a $5.5MM cap hit. That's crazy. That cap hit affords them Keith/Seabrook/Superintendent v. the Kings Doughty/Voynov/??? and Voynov may as well have the question marks too at this point. Let's all pray that McNabb can be a solid #4.

As an aside, tickets for tomorrow are at $70 a piece, down from around $150 for Game 3. The bandwagon has thrown a wheel. Fearing that Ducks fans may jump on that price and be there in larger numbers than usual: especially since they generally only show up in LA in decent numbers when they feel good about winning.

Yeah, but keep in mind the climate of the Keith signing under the old CBA. And I think it's interesting if you see the values between most of the great players on all the teams, it's roughly similar. Obviously the older contracts are cheaper (Keith and Carter, for example, and Richards would also be seen as a bargain if he were himself), and you can be sure that Toews and Kane will have similar deals as Getzlaf and Perry just as Kopi will. Brown's was signed more recently and may look good in a few years, who knows. You obviously can't take it all in a vacuum but I think they're all comparable.

About this game, yeah, if tickets stay at that price I might bite the bullet. I've just had too much heartache this postseason.

Richards is the worst contract on the list, and right now it's not even close. Letang has issues but it's mostly with his health and be can be LTIR if the stroke were to end his career. Fleury is also a bad contract but it ends after next season, Pittsburgh has no commitment to him.

Duncan Keith signed until 2023, well that leaves him at 39 years old when the contract expires, I could honestly see him playing that long and at a high level, just the style of play and the position. Macinnis, Chelios, Lidstrom all lasted that long.

The fact remains that two guys on that list had pathetic seasons and they are both members of the Kings, and they also happen to be two of the longer contracts on the list. As long as the rest of the players continue at a high level they can't be compared to Richards and Brown.

Health issues aside, Letang's contract is ugly. He's not an all-situations d-man like Doughty. I think that's a bad one, tbh. Keith, I agree, he doesn't take a physical beating, and I remember his VO2max being off the charts, so he's fit. He may last. Brown and Richards are obviously the outlier on the list, no doubt or argument there, but if you take one of those out, it looks fine, no? Again, only real reason for the illustration was to show we're not in the swamp, not to pretend Brown = Kane or anything delusional like that. And if you look at the extended rosters, other teams are just getting more out of less on their third and fourth lines--we could do that as early as next season, freeing up Gaborik money as well as shoring up the D money. I just think we're in a good spot is all

Anyway, I don't want to dwell on the offseason until the offseason. And we've got at least a day, likely more!

 

[Buddy The Elf]

Not sure if it has been brought up but for what it's worth, Richards was running around trying to take someone's head off last night and we haven't really seen him try and send that type of message yet this postseason. Then, late in the game, I forgot what exactly happened but when the kings has some sustained pressure in the final few minutes, the camera showed brown really pissed off and yelling on the bench. Obviously nothing to get worked up about but at least those guys were showing a pulse.

 

[CowMix]

Not sure if it has been brought up but for what it's worth, Richards was running around trying to take someone's head off last night and we haven't really seen him try and send that type of message yet this postseason. Then, late in the game, I forgot what exactly happened but when the kings has some sustained pressure in the final few minutes, the camera showed brown really pissed off and yelling on the bench. Obviously nothing to get worked up about but at least those guys were showing a pulse.

Pretty sure that was because their was a very obvious missed call on Brown late in the game. I think he was yelling at the ref. Not something you see from Brown very often after a missed call.

 

[ADifferentTim]

I am going to reiterate again that it's still too soon to talk about trades, especially when the series is not over.

 

[Winger23]

Pretty sure that was because their was a very obvious missed call on Brown late in the game. I think he was yelling at the ref. Not something you see from Brown very often after a missed call.

Damn right there was. He was taken down on an obvious interference call that he crashed into the post, the very same thing doughty did and it got called.

Refs didn't lose this game, but how they are so inconsistent and still have jobs is ****ing frustrating.

 

[Reclamation Project]

Brown getting a call will be a rare sight from now on and it's only his fault.

 

[Winger23]

Brown getting a call will be a rare sight from now on and it's only his fault.

I agree to an extent, but even with this, the play was so obvious...its got to be called and its crap that it wasn't.

With that said, if they want to let it go, they should let doughtys go as well. Just be consistent. Either call em all or none, don't pick and choose based on the score and time left in the game.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Brown getting a call will be a rare sight from now on and it's only his fault.

You guys notice he's back to his bad habits of trying to be too cute and attempting to (and failing) stickhandle around defenders? He needs to just drive the net or chip it ahead and chase it, which he used to be able to do. His ineffective play is a reason why he's not drawing as many calls as before.