GDT: WCQF: Game 5 - Colorado Avalanche @ Dallas Stars | 7:30 MT

[flyfysher]

It should be me. Im 33% responsible for the cup win in 2022. You're Welcome.

I think you’re going to have to buy a lot of votes to garner support from the forum members for your nomination. Good will is earned and not freely given. Remember, it was you who unnecessarily held us hostage and tortured us with an ever expanding avatar for months. We haven’t forgotten.

My vote would be for @forsbergavs32 to remain as mod. Character and fitness still matter!

jk

 

[forsbergavs32]

It should be me. Im 33% responsible for the cup win in 2022. You're Welcome.

I'm responsible for 67% of it, I became a mod that season. Therefore decline

I think you’re going to have to buy a lot of votes to garner support from the forum members for your nomination. Good will is earned and not freely given. Remember, it was you who unnecessarily held us hostage and tortured us with an ever expanding avatar for months. We haven’t forgotten.

My vote would be for @forsbergavs32 to remain as mod. Character and fitness still matter!

jk

Character sure, but fitness is a flat out lie unless it's fitness pizza in my mouth

 

[The Kingslayer]

I think you’re going to have to buy a lot of votes to garner support from the forum members for your nomination. Good will is earned and not freely given. Remember, it was you who unnecessarily held us hostage and tortured us with an ever expanding avatar for months. We haven’t forgotten.

My vote would be for @forsbergavs32 to remain as mod. Character and fitness still matter!

jk

I would use the power for evil no doubt. The first person who tells me Makar is better than Hughes would get banned.

 

[Foppa2118]

I was struck by some of your remarks. In particular, “They weren't focused before.” Whose job is it to ensure the players are focused? Don’t you think that’s vital? IMO it’s both the players and the coaches. Compare it to 2022. That team was laser focused with perhaps the exception of the Blues game where I think they squandered multiple Mack goals . Might have been an hat trick IIRC. Otherwise 16-4 in the only stat that really matters, W-L.

The players are by far the most responsible for being focused. As a grown man, who's responsible for you to be focused in life? Your dad or you? Who's responsible for you to be focused at work? Your boss or you?

If the Avs are out-chancing the Stars now then why did they lose. Didn’t take advantage because of poor shooting? Okay. Otter’s part of that. But is it a coincidence that multiple players were suddenly incapable of scoring? Then it was also a momentary lapse in games 2 and 3. I actually had liked how tightly they played in games 2 and 3 except for the undisciplined play that led to the tying and winning goals. Whose job is it to ensure the players minimize and avoid undisciplined play? Again, IMO it falls on both coaches and players.

I think I've made this pretty clear. They're not executing and burying their shots. Poor shooting has nothing to do with the other goalie.

The players are again by far the most responsible for avoiding undisciplined play. They shouldn't need to be told not to take bad penalties.

You say the players get complacent and don’t execute. I agree. To me that’s on both the players and the coaches. Like if that’s happening on a recurrent basis then how much influence is the coaching staff having on the players?

If the players are to blame for getting complacent and not executing, then it's a mental hurdle that they alone have to figure out. Without figuring it out themselves, it would be the same under any coach.

Every time you bring up things like that it makes me think how Torts would react if he saw this kind of play. JB doesn’t have to be animated like Torts but the point is these are matters which the coaching staff has undoubtedly repeatedly addressed with the players.

Torts may or may not be an improvement over Bednar in waking them up, but he would be a downgrade in every other category, and his effectiveness would be short lived, before the players inevitably tuned him out like every other team has.

I doubt I’ve swayed you but my point is there are other POVs than just analytics.

It's not at all just analytics though. The analytics support the eye test.

When both support your argument, and nobody has even tried to make the argument that Dallas has outplayed the Avs in the series, it's extremely telling IMO.

If nobody thinks the Stars have outplayed the Avs, then the blame for the results should be put on the players for dropping the ball in the key moments that decide games in the playoffs.

 

[flyfysher]

The players are by far the most responsible for being focused. As a grown man, who's responsible for you to be focused in life? Your dad or you? Who's responsible for you to be focused at work? Your boss or you?



I think I've made this pretty clear. They're not executing and burying their shots. Poor shooting has nothing to do with the other goalie.

The players are again by far the most responsible for avoiding undisciplined play. They shouldn't need to be told not to take bad penalties.



If the players are to blame for getting complacent and not executing, then it's a mental hurdle that they alone have to figure out. Without figuring it out themselves, it would be the same under any coach.



Torts may or may not be an improvement over Bednar in waking them up, but he would be a downgrade in every other category, and his effectiveness would be short lived, before the players inevitably tuned him out like every other team has.



It's not at all just analytics though. The analytics support the eye test.

When both support your argument, and nobody has even tried to make the argument that Dallas has outplayed the Avs in the series, it's extremely telling IMO.

The W-L is ultimately the only thing that matters. No one will think anything about the stats except if true then the Avs ran into bad luck.

As for your assertion that no one has made an argument that the Stars outplayed the Avs, dahrougem pointed out the stats on the Stars exceptional PP compared to the Avs. You’re like well the Avs outplayed the Stars for most of the game. The flaw in your argument is that the Stars took advantage at critical junctures in the game and were already positioned such that they flexed enough to withstand the Avs onslaught. There are key, pivotal moments in a game which stats don’t necessarily capture.

I’m surprised you put so little value in a HC and their ability to work on player focus, discipline, motivation, etc.

Your shtick about being a grown man and how they should act is condescending. I likely have a decade or two on you. We’re talking about a team. At its best, it works seamlessly between all team members including both coaches and players.

Here’s a definition of what a coach does in sports beyond formulating and implementing strategy and tactics.

3. Commitment, Communication, Concentration, Control, and Confidence (in Sport):

• Commitment: Demonstrating dedication to the team, goals, and personal growth.
• Communication: Effectively conveying ideas, instructions, and feedback.
• Concentration: Maintaining focus and attention during practice and competition.
• Control: Managing emotions and responses in challenging situations.
• Confidence: Believing in one's abilities and potential.
  

 

[Foppa2118]

The W-L is ultimately the only thing that matters. No one will think anything about the stats except if true then the Avs ran into bad luck.

It's not the only thing that matters if you want to correct the problem. You have to identify the problem in order to correct it.

As for your assertion that no one has made an argument that the Stars outplayed the Avs, dahrougem pointed out the stats on the Stars exceptional PP compared to the Avs. You’re like well the Avs outplayed the Stars for most of the game. The flaw in your argument is that the Stars took advantage at critical junctures in the game and were already positioned such that they flexed enough to withstand the Avs onslaught. There are key, pivotal moments in a game which stats don’t necessarily capture.

The Stars playing better on the PP is not an argument for how they have outplayed the Avs at 5v5.

The flaw in your argument is that the Avs were perfectly positioned to be up 3-0 in the series before blowing two third period leads, despite the power play, and then they dominated Game 4.

I’m surprised you put so little value in a HC and their ability to work on player focus, discipline, motivation, etc.

That's not what I said. What I believe is that all coaches and systems in the NHL are really good. Just like there's parity with the teams, there's parity with coaching.

There's a really small margin for error. In the playoffs, and especially when there is no argument that Dallas is outplaying the Avs, the difference is often a few "big plays" here and there.

The Avs players, especially their star players, are failing in these moments.

Your shtick about being a grown man and how they should act is condescending. I likely have a decade or two on you. We’re talking about a team. At its best, it works seamlessly between all team members including both coaches and players.

It's not a shtick and it's not condescending at all. You're taking offense for no reason. It has nothing to do with you. Make me or any other grown man the example.

The point is the players aren't children. They don't need someone telling them to focus and do their jobs any more than you or I.

Here’s a definition of what a coach does in sports beyond formulating and implementing strategy and tactics.

3. Commitment, Communication, Concentration, Control, and Confidence (in Sport):

• Commitment: Demonstrating dedication to the team, goals, and personal growth.
• Communication: Effectively conveying ideas, instructions, and feedback.
• Concentration: Maintaining focus and attention during practice and competition.
• Control: Managing emotions and responses in challenging situations.
• Confidence: Believing in one's abilities and potential.

I know what a coach does. I don't agree that the fault for the results lies with Bednar.

You had said you don't want him fired, and that the players are also to blame, so I'm not quite sure what we're disagreeing about? That he's not also a little bit to blame, even though his preparation, and strategy has led the Avs to dominate the scoring chances?

Ok fair enough. Agree to disagree.

 

[flyfysher]

It's not the only thing that matters if you want to correct the problem. You have to identify the problem in order to correct it.



The Stars playing better on the PP is not an argument for how they have outplayed the Avs at 5v5.

The flaw in your argument is that the Avs were perfectly positioned to be up 3-0 in the series before blowing two third period leads, despite the power play, and then they dominated Game 4.



That's not what I said. What I believe is that all coaches and systems in the NHL are really good. Just like there's parity with the teams, there's parity with coaching.

There's a really small margin for error. In the playoffs, and especially when there is no argument that Dallas is outplaying the Avs, the difference is often a few "big plays" here and there.

The Avs players, especially their star players, are failing in these moments.



It's not a shtick and it's not condescending at all. You're taking offense for no reason. It has nothing to do with you. Make me or any other grown man the example.

The point is the players aren't children. They don't need someone telling them to focus and do their jobs any more than you or I.



I know what a coach does. I don't agree that the fault for the results lies with Bednar.

You had said you don't want him fired, and that the players are also to blame, so I'm not quite sure what we're disagreeing about? That he's not also a little bit to blame, even though his preparation, and strategy has led the Avs to dominate the scoring chances?

Ok fair enough. Agree to disagree.

1. We already identified the problem. You act like it’s easy to score and you call out the players to bury their chances. It’s not. Regardless, it’s a crappy time for the players that aren’t scoring but that’s sports. It’s one reason why I have vehemently argued for JB to change his line ups so as to get four effective lines rolling. Diversify the scoring. That fixes the issue. You admitted that you didn’t agree with JB’s lineups IIRC. The evidence was game 4. Sethro had a point about other teams adjusting to and neutering JB’s style of play over the years. IMO, he’s right.

Avs may not have enough time in the POs to allow the struggling players to play through their lack of scoring. That’s why many of us have been screaming about JB’s gluing Necas to Mack.

2. You say the Avs outplayed the Stars at 5v5 but as much as they were in a position to win, so were the Stars regardless of being outplayed at 5v5. I’m not arguing the players didn’t execute. They didn’t. But don’t underestimate the Stars scoring at critical junctures that affected the outcome of those games. It was like watching the old Skins-Cowboy games. I hated the Cowboys but damn if Landry didn’t always somehow have his team consistently positioned to win in the final few minutes of the game as improbable as that might be. That’s what DeBoer did in games 2 and 3 which you discount because the stats are your evidence. But that’s what my eyes saw.

3. I agree with you about parity and big moments here and there. That’s what I have been saying. So when you say the Avs star players are failing in particular (regardless of outplaying the Stars) it just points to the need to diversify the scoring.

4.i disagree with your point about not treating the players like children. Motivating players, pushing them to focus and concentrate and elevate their play to their full potential isn’t treating players like children. It’s their job. I’d also argue different teams are at different stages of maturity and some benefit from a more on hands approach.

You say the players don’t need to be treated like children. Well if they were effective then they wouldn’t. But clearly they aren’t effective. So what’s your proposal to fix that? Just say the players need to bury their chances? You going to wait for the Avs players to play through their lack of scoring. Good luck. How many more games have you got to rectify that? So what’s the coach’s role then?

5. Yes, the players need help to focus. When someone is struggling it makes sense to avail themselves of all available resources to help them out. That includes coaching. So I don’t get your aversion to the coach working on things like focus, discipline, etc.

6. I prefer the Avs/JB’s up tempo style of play. I’m unsure if another coach would keep that system or if they did, whether they could be successful with it. That’s why I’m not keen on firing JB on the one hand because the devil you know is better than the one you don’t. Be careful what you wish for.

On the other hand, I want JB gone because my focus isn’t on stats but his stubbornness/lack of adaptability in changing tactics and personnel is detrimental to the team. And yes, that adaptability is a key part of bring a HC.

7. The players aren’t executing. I have consistently said the issues lie with both JB and the players. However, the fact that all of these high end players are simultaneously struggling points to a deeper issue, at least for me.

So we can agree to disagree!

 

[twostroke2023]

Avs are done tomorrow night imo. Kills me 59 admit it but I don’t think they even push this one to 7

 

[the_fan]

The only chance we have winning games 6 and 7 is if both games are on TNT/TBS

 

[the_fan]

Avs are done tomorrow night imo. Kills me 59 admit it but I don’t think they even push this one to 7

We’re done on Thursday, not tomorrow

 

[Pokecheque]

Been a fan since Avs moved to Denver. Avs have always been an offense first skill team. I don’t think these types of teams have near the success they should in the playoffs. Felt like they left at least two on the table during the Sakic and Foppa years and it’s looking the same for this generation. If change is coming coaching would make the most sense practically speaking but they may need to change their team philosophy if they want more playoff success.

They’ve won three Cups with that philosophy, the most conservative they’ve ever been defensively was probably under Hartley and those teams still scored in bunches (except the 2001-02 team).

The Dallas Stars have always been a grind it up defensive team (except that short stint under Lindy where they said f*** defense for two glorious seasons) and they’ve won one Cup in their entire existence.

They’re not going to change. Nor should they. I’ve no desire to watch them try and be like everyone else, to try and slog it up like the Kings, Wylde, and Stars.

 

[Ararana]

Avs are done tomorrow night imo. Kills me 59 admit it but I don’t think they even push this one to 7

That would be almost a repeat of what happened last year against Dallas. Avs had a chance, on home ice, to force game 7 and couldn't get it done. Only this time they have Nuke, Landeskog, and a decent goaltender.

It'd be nice if they could at least force a game 7 before losing to Dallas this time around.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

MacK said you can't win with young players but personally maybe this team lacks a bit of that youthful spark and energy to overcome adversity.

Next season: make sure the top players are fresh for the playoffs. That's all I care. Just make it to playoffs. The position doesn't matter. rest players more than usual and cut their minutes per game. Now we have deeper roster so we need to use that as an advantage.

 

[twostroke2023]

We’re done on Thursday, not tomorrow

Well that’s annoying. I have to be suspended in sadness for longer. Just release me!

 

[expatriatedtexan]

That would be almost a repeat of what happened last year against Dallas. Avs had a chance, on home ice, to force game 7 and couldn't get it done. Only this time they have Nuke, Landeskog, and a decent goaltender.

It'd be nice if they could at least force a game 7 before losing to Dallas this time around.

It will be nicer when they both force a game 7 and slay their game 7 demon this time around.

 

[Foppa2118]

MacK said you can't win with young players but personally maybe this team lacks a bit of that youthful spark and energy to overcome adversity.

Next season: make sure the top players are fresh for the playoffs. That's all I care. Just make it to playoffs. The position doesn't matter. rest players more than usual and cut their minutes per game. Now we have deeper roster so we need to use that as an advantage.

They definitely lack swagger. The kind that Kadri and Byram had. They miss that a lot.

This compensates for the moodiness of other players getting down on themselves, and the team by extension, which is not helpful when battling through adversity.

I think this team, for good and bad, takes on the mindset of MacKinnon, because he's such an intense presence in the locker room, even if he's not talking. They did it with Duchene too. Both guys tend to be a bit moody, and both get down on themselves and frustrated, when things aren't going well.

I'll take the good and the bad with Nate on the team any day of the week. The good by far outweighs the bad. I'm not even trying to criticize him by saying he's moody. Everyone's different and I think he knows this about himself, that's why he has a sports psychologist, and emphasizes staying even keel.

It's just something that always needs to be managed with this team, and actually I think Bednar is the perfect coach to help manage it. I liked Roy as a coach, but he was probably too intense for Nate. They have the same mentality.

Bednar is the opposite, with his zen approach of staying in the moment, and focusing on what you can control. I give Bednar a lot of credit for helping get Nate in the right mindset often enough to reach his potential as one of the best players in the world, but it still becomes an issue every now and then.

 

[PAZ]

They definitely lack swagger. The kind that Kadri and Byram had. They miss that a lot.

This compensates for the moodiness of other players getting down on themselves, and the team by extension, which is not helpful when battling through adversity.

I think this team, for good and bad, takes on the mindset of MacKinnon, because he's such an intense presence in the locker room, even if he's not talking. They did it with Duchene too. Both guys tend to be a bit moody, and both get down on themselves and frustrated, when things aren't going well.

I'll take the good and the bad with Nate on the team any day of the week. The good by far outweighs the bad. I'm not even trying to criticize him by saying he's moody. Everyone's different and I think he knows this about himself, that's why he has a sports psychologist, and emphasizes staying even keel.

It's just something that always needs to be managed with this team, and actually I think Bednar is the perfect coach to help manage it. I liked Roy as a coach, but he was probably too intense for Nate. They have the same mentality.

Bednar is the opposite, with his zen approach of staying in the moment, and focusing on what you can control. I give Bednar a lot of credit for helping get Nate in the right mindset often enough to reach his potential as one of the best players in the world, but it still becomes an issue every now and then.

Landy was and still is the glue, it's no coincidence that the team started to have locker room issues and media outbursts once he was in rehab.

I think we'll have another shot or two if Landy is healthy enough to play through a full season. But if he hangs up his skates a big shakeup is needed to even believe we have a chance in the future.

 

[Foppa2118]

Landy was and still is the glue, it's no coincidence that the team started to have locker room issues and media outbursts once he was in rehab.

I think we'll have another shot or two if Landy is healthy enough to play through a full season. But if he hangs up his skates a big shakeup is needed to even believe we have a chance in the future.

Yeah Gabe and EJ's positive leadership was sorely missed. I've believed that for a long time.

The swagger is slightly different though. Not only does it help boost their teammates belief, but even if guys are still down on themselves and not playing well, those guys with swagger like Naz and Bo, have it in them to make a huge individual effort to score a goal all by themself.

Not only does that have a big impact on the score, it boosts the bench like crazy when the team sees plays like that.

This team has always fed off confidence. They haven't had it since they stopped playing waiting for the playoffs to start. That was over a month ago probably. They didn't really have it much before that either, since the Cup win. They found it for a stretch after the deadline, but they switched off mentally.

We thought they would flip the switch back on for the playoffs, because they did it before, but so far they haven't really outside of Game 4.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

My biggest two questions regarding the actual players right now:
1. What is hindering Nate? He's always been a first round monster.
2. What is going on with Cale Makar? How did he develop the hockey idiots? Was Wood's case contagious? I don't get it.

 

[Foppa2118]

My biggest two questions regarding the actual players right now:
1. What is hindering Nate? He's always been a first round monster.
2. What is going on with Cale Makar? How did he develop the hockey idiots? Was Wood's case contagious? I don't get it.

Yeah, Nate has produced, but some of those were lucky goals, and he generally hasn't looked like himself. Not 5v5, not on the PP, not his zone entires, not his passes, not his shots.

It's not Dallas either, he's just too stationary, and coasting too much. Much less compete than normal. He looks they way he looks when he plays hurt, but he also still has the occasional speed burst, and he's playing very physical out there, so who knows.

Cale I have no idea. He masks when he's playing hurt as good as anyone. You can never really tell form how he looks on the ice.

Someone else mentioned that he doesn't play well after long breaks, and I think that's true, but it usually only takes him a game or two to get back into it.

His shot is just terrible right now. He keeps shooting at the same spot just above the pads too. He's not making his usual plays shaking and baking at the blueline, even when he has time. He looks a bit worried to make a mistake.

The team is just not in the right frame of mind.

This is the time where EJ needs to stand up in the room and remind them what a privilege it is to play for this team. That they may never get another opportunity like this. That he's not even playing, but he's rooting for Malinski to succeed.

Most importantly, EJ needs to look around the room at each guy in eyes, and remind them that Gabe put in three years of blood, sweat, and tears to persevere through adversity, and they're letting their captain down. It's time to pull that card.

They need to play with the same kind of urgency, focus, and determination they had in Game 4. No matter what happens, keep battling. If they do that, they can beat this team twice.

 

[dahrougem2]

Yeah Gabe and EJ's positive leadership was sorely missed. I've believed that for a long time.

The swagger is slightly different though. Not only does it help boost their teammates belief, but even if guys are still down on themselves and not playing well, those guys with swagger like Naz and Bo, have it in them to make a huge individual effort to score a goal all by themself.

Not only does that have a big impact on the score, it boosts the bench like crazy when the team sees plays like that.

This team has always fed off confidence. They haven't had it since they stopped playing waiting for the playoffs to start. That was over a month ago probably. They didn't really have it much before that either, since the Cup win. They found it for a stretch after the deadline, but they switched off mentally.

We thought they would flip the switch back on for the playoffs, because they did it before, but so far they haven't really outside of Game 4.

Kadri, Byram, Burakovsky, hell even NAK all thought they were world beaters that season.

This team seems to get down if they are trailing.

 

[Foppa2118]

Kadri, Byram, Burakovsky, hell even NAK all thought they were world beaters that season.

This team seems to get down if they are trailing.

Mikko even said it recently with the Stars. He said he knows how important it is for the Avs to get a lead.

In that 22' Cup run, it didn't matter at all. They'd give up the first goal and it wouldn't phase them one bit. They'd just get back to work, stick with the system, and take over the game.

 

[Avsfan1921]

My biggest two questions regarding the actual players right now:
1. What is hindering Nate? He's always been a first round monster.
2. What is going on with Cale Makar? How did he develop the hockey idiots? Was Wood's case contagious? I don't get it.

Mack has been quite hit and miss the last few post seasons. And even though he was near the top of the leaderboard all year there were a lot of stretches we’ve all asked “where’s your brain at Nate?”. Maybe it’s fatigue, I don’t know, but we need him to take the game over next game. Cale, even though he isn’t putting up points, still at least looks dangerous.

 

[Foppa2118]

Mack has been quite hit and miss the last few post seasons. And even though he was near the top of the leaderboard all year there were a lot of stretches we’ve all asked “where’s your brain at Nate?”. Maybe it’s fatigue, I don’t know, but we need him to take the game over next game. Cale, even though he isn’t putting up points, still at least looks dangerous.

Yeah, Nate actually hasn't been that first round beast in recent seasons. He may have points, but he hasn't been nearly as dominant.

I figured he was trying not to get too high, because when he did that in the past, he had an adrenaline dump after the first round, and then didn't play that well.

It's time for him to find that inner beast again though. Can't wait any longer to bring it out. He needs to remember he's an alpha bull, and play like one again.

Cale's only issue really is his shot. He's still been ok with the with puck and played well defensively. As Bednar put it, "his sights have been off."

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Yeah, Nate actually hasn't been that first round beast in recent seasons. He may have points, but he hasn't been nearly as dominant.

I figured he was trying not to get too high, because when he did that in the past, he had an adrenaline dump after the first round, and then didn't play that well.

It's time for him to find that inner beast again though. Can't wait any longer to bring it out. He needs to remember he's an alpha bull, and play like one again.

Cale's only issue really is his shot. He's still been ok with the with puck and played well defensively. As Bednar put it, "his sights have been off."

I'm kinda surprised. I don't feel like Cale has been that great defensively this series. I'm talking, I feel like he's making unforced errors defensively rather than Dallas forcing him to hurry up and make a risky play.