Was Lemieux still in his peak in 1995-96?

[tabness]

Other than for a few odd shifts, 100% Mario and Jags ran on different lines that year. As for defensive matchups it's not exactly something I thought much about back then but I distinctly remember he seemed to often be matched up against players like Stevens and Hamrlik.

I don't believe anyone was keeping ice time logs back then the NHL itself didn't start until 2 years later, all we have to go by are the scoring logs.


Makes me wish I could've seen his earlier years. I didn't start watching hockey until the early 90's, around the same time I started skating and not living in Pittsburgh the footage I saw of him was very limited until the finals in '92. It's not like with the internet now where you can watch everything and anything, unless you actually lived in the city where a specific player played you'd only be able to see them a couple times a year. But by 1995 I was an avid hockey fan and watched the Pens game whenever they were broadcast nationally which seemed to be much more than years past and also their highlights after every game. I did catch a few of his games in 93 as well and I definitely remember his skating was noticeably better that year vs 95-96 But even though he lost a step by then he still seemed to 'think' the game just as well. In that sense at least he was still in his peak I'd say, but physically I agree he was not there anymore.

Here are points together for Lemieux and Jagr in 1995-1996

player name:
mario lemieux

start season:
1996

end season:
1996

1996 155 total
jaromir jagr              49 31.61%  12ev  36pp   1sh
tomas sandstrom           47 30.32%  24ev  20pp   3sh
ron francis               46 29.68%  10ev  36pp   0sh
markus naslund            28 18.06%  22ev   6pp   0sh
sergei zubov              20  12.9%   3ev  17pp   0sh
dmitri mironov            15  9.68%  11ev   2pp   2sh
bryan smolinski           14  9.03%   9ev   5pp   0sh
petr nedved               14  9.03%   4ev  10pp   0sh
norm maciver              12  7.74%   5ev   7pp   0sh
kevin miller               7  4.52%   7ev   0pp   0sh
unassisted                 7  4.52%   2ev   0pp   5sh
francois leroux            6  3.87%   6ev   0pp   0sh
chris joseph               5  3.23%   2ev   3pp   0sh
dave mcllwain              4  2.58%   4ev   0pp   0sh
jean-jacques daigneault    4  2.58%   0ev   4pp   0sh
neil wilkinson             4  2.58%   4ev   0pp   0sh
chris tamer                3  1.94%   2ev   0pp   1sh
brad lauer                 2  1.29%   2ev   0pp   0sh
corey foster               2  1.29%   1ev   1pp   0sh
dave roche                 2  1.29%   2ev   0pp   0sh
chris wells                1  0.65%   1ev   0pp   0sh
glen murray                1  0.65%   1ev   0pp   0sh
joe dziedzic               1  0.65%   1ev   0pp   0sh
richard park               1  0.65%   1ev   0pp   0sh

player name:
jaromir jagr

start season:
1996

end season:
1996

1996 144 total
ron francis               67 46.53%  46ev  20pp   1sh
petr nedved               54  37.5%  44ev  10pp   0sh
mario lemieux             49 34.03%  12ev  36pp   1sh
sergei zubov              22 15.28%  14ev   7pp   1sh
bryan smolinski           16 11.11%  12ev   4pp   0sh
tomas sandstrom           14  9.72%   2ev  12pp   0sh
chris joseph               9  6.25%   9ev   0pp   0sh
norm maciver               7  4.86%   2ev   4pp   1sh
richard park               7  4.86%   6ev   0pp   1sh
dmitri mironov             6  4.17%   4ev   2pp   0sh
chris tamer                5  3.47%   5ev   0pp   0sh
markus naslund             4  2.78%   4ev   0pp   0sh
joe dziedzic               3  2.08%   3ev   0pp   0sh
unassisted                 3  2.08%   3ev   0pp   0sh
brad lauer                 2  1.39%   2ev   0pp   0sh
glen murray                2  1.39%   2ev   0pp   0sh
rusty fitzgerald           2  1.39%   2ev   0pp   0sh
francois leroux            1  0.69%   1ev   0pp   0sh
kevin miller               1  0.69%   1ev   0pp   0sh
neil wilkinson             1  0.69%   1ev   0pp   0sh
tom barrasso               1  0.69%   0ev   1pp   0sh

I think its fair to say that Mario might have been as good at even strength at Jagr given that it's very likely teams focused on him and his linemates were a bit less consistent in general and old Sandstrom and young Naslund probably aren't as good as Francis and Nedved. Plus Zubov seems to be a lot more of a factor with Jagr at even strength.

For some games of prime Lemieux I had some up on YouTube (got more I wanted to put up but account is locked thanks to logging in from a different device/network which apparently is real suspicious lol... gotta love our new AI world):

 

[wetcoast]

No, Lemieux was nowhere near his best in '96, and he wasn't at his best in '93 either. Actually, he never really had a peak due to his back injuries.

He continuously improved during his first several seasons in the NHL, and was at his physical peak from about '87 to '89 - from ages 21 to 23 - before the back injuries hit. He was agile and a good player in the Canada Cup '87 and during the '88 and '89 seasons.

You could say that '89 was the closest he had to a peak, but he was still improving...so, everybody expected him to have his best years from '90 over the next several seasons. But he was never healthy again, although he played a smarter game.

But there's no way you could call '93 his best, as he was playing injured the whole season.

By '96, he wasn't a very good player (relative to what he could do if healthy).

And he was terrible (relative to '88 or '89) when he came back in the '01 season....he looked like a big piece of cardboard skating down the ice (a big piece of cardboard who could still outscore everybody else, but not a very good player nonetheless).

Came here to say this basically although the OP did one of the better all time pros and cons for his thread IMO.

 

[The Panther]

I would say Mario's prime years were 1985-86 through 1996-97, but his peak years were 1987-88 through 1992-93.

So, 'no' for me, but it's weird to say a guy's past his peak when he scored 100 points in 38 games. But it's a bit like Gretzky in 1990-91.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Other than for a few odd shifts, 100% Mario and Jags ran on different lines that year. As for defensive matchups it's not exactly something I thought much about back then but I distinctly remember he seemed to often be matched up against players like Stevens and Hamrlik.

I don't believe anyone was keeping ice time logs back then the NHL itself didn't start until 2 years later, all we have to go by are the scoring logs.

i don't mean is it true they didn't play together. the scoring logs exist.

i meant, is it a fact that mario's line usually matched up against the best checkers, leaving jagr's line with an easier ride?

and if so, would that conversely have meant that jagr's line with francis at center would normally have been matched up against the other team's top line, ie, having to hold down greater defensive responsibilities?

i guess my point is, in a regular season matchup, unless there was something really on the line, i imagine most coaches would just roll their most competent lines against both penguins lines and hope for the best? i don't know that at that level it makes sense to rigorously hard match against one at the expense of the other.

 

[TheStatican]

i meant, is it a fact that mario's line usually matched up against the best checkers, leaving jagr's line with an easier ride?

From what I recall yes. There's a number of Pens games from that year online, could check them out if you happen to have a day to spare lol

Scoring 5 with players like Kevin Miller, Dave McLlwain & Brad Lauer on his side


In the pre-game of this one they talked about some of the line combinations the Pens were messing with after they lost Sandstrom who really was an underrated component of the team that year. With a healthy Sandstrom, he was NOT himself in those playoffs and Francis, I'm 100% confident they wouldn't have stumbled against the Panthers


Lemieux deking out half the team and drawing a penalty. Lemieux drew many like that over the year


One Mario sat out

Great analysis, lots of detail. I tend to think Lemieux’s playoff performance has to count against this season being considered his peak. Unfortunately he didn’t play very many games at a peak level due to injuries.

Re: Lemieux maintaining his EV scoring from 95-96 to 96-97, that was largely thanks to a 30 game stretch starting in December 96 where the Pens stacked their top line with Lemieux on LW, Francis at C, and Jagr at RW. Lemieux and Jagr were around a 2 pts/game pace in these games. At the beginning and end of the season, when Lemieux played C without a stacked line, his EV scoring pace continued to decline from his 95-96 level.

Good point, together from around the end of November until early February; the point when Jagr became ineffective because of that damn groin injury and was soon out, they were both red-hot scoring at a 2 points per game rate thanks to that move;

Lemieux
before; 9 goals 27 points in 21 games 1.29ppg
during; 30 goals and 62 points in 30 games 2.07ppg Including an insane stretch where he had 32 in 11
after; 7 goals 19 points in 14 games 1.36ppg
together again; 4 goals 12 points in 8 games 1.50ppg

Jagr
before; 19 goals 26 points in 22 games 1.18ppg
during; 25 goals 59 points in 31 games 1.90ppg
playing injured and out; 1 goals 2 points in 4 games
after returning; 2 goals 8 points in 6 games 1.33ppg

Yeah Lemieux definitely lost another big step that year, didn't help that NHL basically decided it was fine with becoming the national garbage league - long live the clutch and grab era! On another note boy did the Pens make some dumb moves around then, getting rid of Nasland, Smolinski & Glen Murry all within the span of a year smh

 

[The Panther]

I always felt Tomas Sandström---from the late 80s through early 1996---was a more impactful player than he was commonly recognized as. He might have been the best New York Ranger (along with Beezer) from 1986 or so to 1990, then he had a few great seasons playing with Gretzky in L.A., and then the 1995 to 1996 Pens with Mario / Jagr.

But there's a common thread where, when he went down to injury (as he did nearly every season, at some point), the team also seemed to decline in play. It happened again with Pittsburgh in 1995-96.

But what is the injury(-ies) he suffered in 1995-96 to miss 24-ish games? Because he was never the same after that. He was a borderline elite NHL player up to late January 1996... and then he was a third-liner the rest of that season and the rest of his career. What happened?

_________________

Off-topic a bit, but btw these are project scoring totals for Sandström if he'd not missed games:

1986-87 (NYR)
50 goals, 93 points

1990-91 (L.A.)
53 goals, 105 points

1992-93 (L.A.)
53 goals, 112 points

1995-96 (Pitt.)
49 goals, 99 points

 

[The Panther]

Yeah Lemieux definitely lost another big step that year, didn't help that NHL basically decided it was fine with becoming the national garbage league - long live the clutch and grab era! On another note boy did the Pens make some dumb moves around then, getting rid of Nasland, Smolinski & Glen Murry all within the span of a year smh

This is so true. I still can't decide if the mid-/late-90s' NHL was a step up in quality or a step down in quality from, say, the late 80s' era. There had always been lots of violence, but somewhere around the mid-90s it became 'easier' for no-skill players to simply physically disable skilled players... and get away with it.

I still cringe when I think of François Leroux, for example, taking out Lafontaine with a shoulder to the head. Or the fact that Gino Odjick had a career.

Here's the NHL executives' response to superstars being pummeled by no-skill, six-foot six goons:

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

i don't mean is it true they didn't play together. the scoring logs exist.

i meant, is it a fact that mario's line usually matched up against the best checkers, leaving jagr's line with an easier ride?

and if so, would that conversely have meant that jagr's line with francis at center would normally have been matched up against the other team's top line, ie, having to hold down greater defensive responsibilities?

i guess my point is, in a regular season matchup, unless there was something really on the line, i imagine most coaches would just roll their most competent lines against both penguins lines and hope for the best? i don't know that at that level it makes sense to rigorously hard match against one at the expense of the other.

It's mario lemieux. Of course he's gonna be the main focus of coaches and players.

 

[bobholly39]

Not his peak, no.

But it's hard with Lemieux. I think he really started hitting his stride in the 1987-1988 season, and was even better in 88-89....and was as good as ever in following years/playoffs/93 comeback - problem he wasn't healthy at all in those stretches, and so it's all intermittent. He's by far the best player in the history of the NHL for whom we never got to see him really go "all out" at his peak.

Considering how little he played in 94 and 95, I skip those and by 96, although still absolutely fantastic, he was past his peak

I'd say his peak years are 88-93....with only one real "full" season in there, in 88-89.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I would say Mario's prime years were 1985-86 through 1996-97, but his peak years were 1987-88 through 1992-93.

So, 'no' for me, but it's weird to say a guy's past his peak when he scored 100 points in 38 games. But it's a bit like Gretzky in 1990-91.

I liken it to Orr at the 76 Canada Cup. Obviously not the player at their best, but still the best player in the world.

Could include Gretzky 93 playoffs or Lemieux in the first half of the 2002-03 season.

Or Howe 62-63, where he leads the league in goals and points, wins the Hart, all while being the second oldest forward in the league.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

It's mario lemieux. Of course he's gonna be the main focus of coaches and players.

well yeah this is the exact kind of assumption with no analysis i am trying to scrutinize

because it’s peak jagr with a selke center. of course that would be the main focus of coaches and players.

thanks @EM71 for your memories and the legwork of what to watch to answer this question. i probably am not going to watch those haha, but nice that penguins/mario fans who are really invested in this question know where to look

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

well yeah this is the exact kind of assumption with no analysis i am trying to scrutinize

because it’s peak jagr with a selke center. of course that would be the main focus of coaches and players.

thanks @EM71 for your memories and the legwork of what to watch to answer this question. i probably am not going to watch those haha, but nice that penguins/mario fans who are really invested in this question know where to look

Would a 30 year old Gretzky not get the toughest assignments. It was one of those things that doesn't require research although I do remember checking that stat a couple years ago which was why I was pretty certain

 

[Pominville Knows]

Would a 30 year old Gretzky not get the toughest assignments. It was one of those things that doesn't require research although I do remember checking that stat a couple years ago which was why I was pretty certain

Comparing Lemieux and Gretzky by age, in both directions i might add, is often not a good way to go.

I'm not saying that you are wrong though. Lemieux's total domination of that PP speaks for it, i would say. A lost step or not.

 

[Big Phil]

Whatever you voted, I will say this about Lemieux in 1996. How many seasons from a player not named Gretzky or Orr are better than Lemieux's 1996 year? Not counting Lemieux's own seasons himself. Only Gretzky and Lemieux have averaged 2.0 or more PPG in a season, other than Joe Malone, Cy Denneny and Newsy Lalonde from before 1920. In fact, Lemieux's 2.30 PPG in 1996 is still much higher than Esposito's 1.95 PPG in 1971. He's the closest guy outside of those early years and outside of the WWII years (Bill Cowley in 1944 had 1.97). So when you think about it, we are really just comparing 1996 Lemieux to himself in previous years. Perhaps a less tired version of him with less miles in those earlier years. But I saw 1996, there was no one better in the NHL at that time, it was obvious.

But honestly, who is a player that had a better season in NHL history than Lemieux in 1996? The best I can think of might be Hasek in 1998, or Jagr in 1999. And neither were better I don't think. I can distinctly remember whispers about whether or not Lemieux could get 200 points in a season early that year.

 

[Hobnobs]

It's mario lemieux. Of course he's gonna be the main focus of coaches and players.

That is an assumption and its not entirely true. Some teams tried to focus on one of them. But no by 96 Lemieux was no longer the primary focus and most contending teams had the depth to cover both. Usually it was another top-center vs lemiux (Lindros, Linden, Fedorov, Sundin) while Jagrs line faced the checking lines.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Whatever you voted, I will say this about Lemieux in 1996. How many seasons from a player not named Gretzky or Orr are better than Lemieux's 1996 year? Not counting Lemieux's own seasons himself. Only Gretzky and Lemieux have averaged 2.0 or more PPG in a season, other than Joe Malone, Cy Denneny and Newsy Lalonde from before 1920. In fact, Lemieux's 2.30 PPG in 1996 is still much higher than Esposito's 1.95 PPG in 1971. He's the closest guy outside of those early years and outside of the WWII years (Bill Cowley in 1944 had 1.97). So when you think about it, we are really just comparing 1996 Lemieux to himself in previous years. Perhaps a less tired version of him with less miles in those earlier years. But I saw 1996, there was no one better in the NHL at that time, it was obvious.

But honestly, who is a player that had a better season in NHL history than Lemieux in 1996? The best I can think of might be Hasek in 1998, or Jagr in 1999. And neither were better I don't think. I can distinctly remember whispers about whether or not Lemieux could get 200 points in a season early that year.

The numbers themselves are insane already. 161 in 70. But given the league wide scoring very similar to last year's where 25 year old mcdavid put 123 in 80. It shows the level mario even at 30 was operating at

 

[Big Phil]

The numbers themselves are insane already. 161 in 70. But given the league wide scoring very similar to last year's where 25 year old mcdavid put 123 in 80. It shows the level mario even at 30 was operating at

I hate to call it an underrated season, but for some reason people tend to pick apart Lemieux in 1996. They point to the fact he had as many PP points as ES points. Here was the breakdown in 70 games:

79 PP points
73 ES points
9 SH points

I mean, we are talking about a guy who averaged a power play point and an even strength point per game. Plus he had 8 shorthanded goals to lead the league.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I hate to call it an underrated season, but for some reason people tend to pick apart Lemieux in 1996. They point to the fact he had as many PP points as ES points. Here was the breakdown in 70 games:

79 PP points
73 ES points
9 SH points

I mean, we are talking about a guy who averaged a power play point and an even strength point per game. Plus he had 8 shorthanded goals to lead the league.

Exactly. Would have finished 1st in overall points. 2nd in ev points and 1st in pp points and 1st I'm sh points. He's compared to himself.

 

[Big Phil]

Exactly. Would have finished 1st in overall points. 2nd in ev points and 1st in pp points and 1st I'm sh points. He's compared to himself.

1996 Lemieux can lead my team anyday of the week

 

[TheStatican]

Exactly. Would have finished 1st in overall points. 2nd in ev points and 1st in pp points and 1st I'm sh points. He's compared to himself.

And litterally he himself was perhaps the reason why Jagr was able to elevate his even strength production. With Lemieux and co. on the first line facing the opponents best, Jagr Francis and Nedved were able to run wild on the second line vs checking lines. With all due respect to Jagr, one of my favorite players of all time, heck I loved watching him as much as Mario by that time - without Lemieux on that team there's no way he gets anywhere near 149 point or 95 ev points.

In 12 games without Lemieux in the lineup the Pens suffered a major power outage scoring just 31 goals and 13 of those came in two late season blowout games against the Rangers and Oilers. That's 2.6 per game, with Mario in they scored 331 in 70, or 4.7 per game!

Jagr himself did notch a more than respectable 10 goals, taking on more of the scoring burden but only tallied 14 points; 1.17 per game (12 at even strength). It's not a big sample size but it's enough of one to give us an idea.

I figure he'd still get 60-odd goals but his point totals is probably cut down to around 130 and he'd still be around a point a game at even strength, but certainly not 95 in 82. Mind you all that would be more than enough to win him the Ross and the Hart that year and probably also be the highest point total in the NHL since 92-93.

All in all I still think Mario was the biggest threat in "difficult to score situations" in the entire league. Jags had 42 ev & sh goals(98 ev+sh pt's) while Lemieux had 39 ev & sh goals (82 pt) - in 12 less games! It's laughable when people say stuff like; Lemieux had "poor numbers outside of the powerplay" that year.

 

[TheStatican]

Whatever you voted, I will say this about Lemieux in 1996. How many seasons from a player not named Gretzky or Orr are better than Lemieux's 1996 year? Not counting Lemieux's own seasons himself. Only Gretzky and Lemieux have averaged 2.0 or more PPG in a season, other than Joe Malone, Cy Denneny and Newsy Lalonde from before 1920. In fact, Lemieux's 2.30 PPG in 1996 is still much higher than Esposito's 1.95 PPG in 1971. He's the closest guy outside of those early years and outside of the WWII years (Bill Cowley in 1944 had 1.97). So when you think about it, we are really just comparing 1996 Lemieux to himself in previous years. Perhaps a less tired version of him with less miles in those earlier years. But I saw 1996, there was no one better in the NHL at that time, it was obvious.

But honestly, who is a player that had a better season in NHL history than Lemieux in 1996? The best I can think of might be Hasek in 1998, or Jagr in 1999. And neither were better I don't think. I can distinctly remember whispers about whether or not Lemieux could get 200 points in a season early that year.

I was thinking about making a thread on whether Lemieux's 195-96 season is the greatest non-peak season ever but you make a good point. Nevermind non-peak, what other PEAK season by anyone other than Orr or Gretzky even competes with it? So there's literally no point in making that thread. Here's a list of all the best seasons by anyone(not named Gretzky or Orr) and how it compares to this season of Lemieux's.

Close but no/Arguable;

Season​

Player​

Gm​

G​

A​

PT​

Pt's behind​

PPG​

GPG​

Awards​

Goals created​

Adj goals​

Adj points​

95-96​

Lemieux​

70​

69​

92​

161​

​

2.30​

0.99​

Hart, Pearson, Ross​

0.87​

67​

156​

52-53​

Howe

70​

49

46

95​

-66​

1.36

0.70

Hart, Ross​

0.60​

65​

131​

88-89​

Yzerman​

80​

65​

90​

155​

-6​

1.94​

0.81​

Pearson​

0.75​

54​

128​

90-91​

Hull​

78​

86​

45​

131​

-30​

1.68​

1.10​

Hart, Pearson​

0.74​

78​

118​

93-94​

Federov

82​

56

64

120

-41​

1.46

0.68​

Hart, Pearson, Selke​

0.59​

51​

109​

95-96​

Jagr​

82​

62​

87​

149​

-12​

1.82​

0.76​

​

0.68​

60​

144​

98-99​

Jagr​

81​

44​

83​

127​

-34​

1.57​

0.54​

Hart, Pearson, Ross​

0.57​

51​

145​

20-21​

McDavid​

56​

33​

72​

105​

-56​

1.88​

0.59​

Hart, Pearson, Ross​

0.66​

50​

158​

Benefited from playing with Orr/Gretzky and still falls short;

Season​

Player​

Gm​

G​

A​

PT​

Pt's behind​

PPG​

GPG​

Awards​

Goals created​

Adj goals​

Adj points​

95-96​

Lemieux​

70​

69​

92​

161​

​

2.30​

0.99​

Hart, Pearson, Ross​

0.87​

67​

156​

70-71​

Esposito​

78​

76​

76​

152​

-9​

1.95​

0.97​

Hart, Pearson, Ross​

0.78​

70​

141​

73-74​

Esposito​

78​

68​

77​

145​

-16​

1.86​

0.87​

Hart, Pearson, Ross​

0.75​

64​

138​

84-85​

Kurri​

73​

71​

64​

135​

-26​

1.85​

0.97​

​

0.77​

57​

108​

85-86​

Kurri​

78​

68​

63​

131​

-30​

1.68​

0.87​

​

0.71​

53​

102​

85-86​

Coffey​

79​

48​

90​

138​

-23​

1.75​

0.61​

Norris​

0.63​

37​

108​

88-89​

Nicholls​

79​

70​

80​

150​

-11​

1.90​

0.89​

​

0.76​

58​

124​

Fall's Well Short;

Season​

Player​

Gm​

G​

A​

PT​

Pt's behind​

PPG​

GPG​

Awards​

Goals created​

Adj goals​

Adj points​

95-96​

Lemieux​

70​

69​

92​

161​

​

2.30​

0.99​

Hart, Pearson, Ross​

0.87​

67​

156​

65-66​

Hull

65​

54

43​

97​

-64​

1.49

0.83

Hart, Ross​

0.64​

58​

103​

74-75​

Lafleur​

70​

53​

66​

119​

-42​

1.70​

0.76​

​

0.68​

45​

103​

76-77​

Lafleur​

80​

56​

80​

136​

-25​

1.70​

0.70​

Hart, Pearson, Ross​

0.67​

50​

122​

77-78​

Lafleur​

78​

60​

72​

132​

-29​

1.69​

0.77​

Hart, Pearson, Ross​

0.69​

54​

119​

78-79​

Trottier​

76​

47​

87​

134​

-27​

1.76​

0.62​

Hart, Ross​

0.64​

39​

113​

79-80​

Dionne​

80​

53​

84​

137​

-24​

1.71​

0.66​

Pearson​

0.65​

44​

116​

80-81​

Dionne​

80​

58​

77​

134​

-27​

1.68​

0.73​

​

0.66​

44​

104​

81-82​

Bossy​

80​

64​

83​

147​

-14​

1.84​

0.80​

​

0.71​

47​

108​

81-82​

Stastny​

80​

46​

93​

139​

-22​

1.74​

0.58​

​

0.62​

34​

102​

82-83​

Maruk​

80​

60​

76​

136​

-25​

1.70​

0.75​

​

0.66​

44​

100​

84-85​

Hawerchuk

80​

53

77

130

-31​

1.63

0.66

0.63​

42​

103​

87-88​

Savard

80​

44

87

131 ​

-30​

1.64

0.55

0.60​

37​

110​

90-91​

Oates​

61​

25​

90​

115​

-46​

1.89​

0.41​

​

0.61​

22​

102​

92-93​

Oates​

84​

45​

97​

142​

-19​

1.69​

0.54​

​

0.60​

37​

115​

92-93​

Lafontaine​

84​

53​

95​

148​

-13​

1.76​

0.63​

​

0.65​

43​

119​

92-93​

Mogilny​

77​

76​

51​

127​

-34​

1.65​

0.99​

​

0.72​

62​

103​

92-93​

Selanne​

84​

76​

56​

132​

-29​

1.57​

0.90​

​

0.66​

62​

107​

92-93​

Yzerman​

84​

58​

79​

137​

-24​

1.63​

0.69​

​

0.62​

47​

111​

00-01​

Jagr​

81​

52​

69​

121​

-40​

1.49​

0.64​

Ross​

0.56​

57​

131​

06-07​

Crosby​

79​

36​

84​

120​

-41​

1.52​

0.46​

Hart, Pearson, Ross​

0.53​

38​

122​

07-08​

Ovechkin​

82​

65​

47​

112​

-49​

1.37​

0.79​

Hart, Pearson, Ross​

0.59​

72​

122​

09-10​

Ovechkin​

72​

50​

59​

109​

-52​

1.51​

0.69​

Pearson​

0.60​

55​

117​

11-12​

Malkin

75​

50​

59​

109​

-52​

1.45​

0.67

Hart, Pearson, Ross​

0.57​

57​

122​

18-19​

Kucherov​

82​

41​

87​

128​

-33​

1.56​

0.50​

Hart, Pearson, Ross​

0.55​

41​

128​

I'd agree that Hasek at his best is definitely a tough choice and maybe peak Roy but those are probably the only two goalies I'd take over 95-96 Mario. Peak Brodeur, Plante & Sawchuk are more debatable but a no from me. On the defensive side peak Potvin specifically his '76 season is too close to call. '90 Bourque is a touch below but also still debatable. But I'd still take '96 Mario over the best single season of play from any of Lidstrom, Pronger, Chelios, Robinson or Park. Peak Coffey is another difficult one to assess, he was an offensive monster and definitely helped Gretzky in accumulating his grandiose point totals but Gretzky likewise raised Coffey's stats far higher than they otherwise would have been, it's hard to look at him in isolation. Also he was more like a 4th forward than a defensemen really.

But offensively? Not a single season beats it. Yzerman's 65 & 155 in '89 is the closest anyone's got to it on a raw point scale but still falls short and more so on a per-game and even much, much, more on an adjusted basis. The best argument might actually be for Federov in '94 because of his level of play on both sides of the ice which arguable makes up for the significant difference in offense. Hull's '91 MVP campaign is also quite underrated in terms of how impressive it was imo. It's the only season which beat's Mario's on a goals per game basis and it has the highest adjusted single season goals total in NHL history. Sure he was one-dimensional, but he was one-dimensional in the single most important aspect of the game. I'll give him his due for that, but probably still wouldn't take that season over '96 Lemieux. Jagr's the easiest to compare, he couldn't beat Mario in any offensive total in 95-96 other than even strength points and not by that much, hardly a reason to pick his seasons over Mario's. His 98-99 season is arguably even more impressive considering the era, but his goal totals even adjusted are just too far behind. And then there's McDavid... his '21 season is the only one that bests Mario's in adjusted points but until he comes close to replicating those figures over a full season it's hard to take that figure seriously especially since it's extrapolating what his 56 game pace would be in an 82-game season. Not to mention that Mario's 156 is his adjusted total in 70 games, doing the same for him would yield 183!


I also think it's clearly the best non-peak season of all-time of any player, Gretzky and Orr included. Plenty of people would even consider many of the years listed below as still being a park of Gretzky's peak, or at least more than Lemieux's 95-96 is considered to be part of his. More people would consider Lemieux's 87-88 season to be part of his peak as well.

Best (arguably)non-peak season;

Season​

Player​

Gm​

G​

A​

PT​

Pt's behind​

PPG​

GPG​

Awards​

Goals created​

Adj goals​

Adj points​

95-96​

Lemieux​

70​

69​

92​

161​

​

2.30​

0.99​

Hart, Pearson, Ross​

0.87​

67​

156​

87-88​

Lemieux​

77​

70​

98​

168​

+7​

2.18​

0.91​

Hart, Pearson, Ross​

0.85​

59​

141​

80-81​

Gretzky​

80​

55​

109​

164​

+3​

2.05​

0.69​

Hart, Ross​

0.75​

42​

127​

87-88​

Gretzky​

64​

40​

109​

149​

-12​

2.33​

0.63​

​

0.80​

33​

124​

88-89​

Gretzky​

78​

54​

114​

168​

+7​

2.15​

0.69​

Hart​

0.78​

45​

139​

89-90​

Gretzky​

73​

40​

102​

142​

-19​

1.95​

0.55​

Ross​

0.67​

34​

120​

90-91​

Gretzky​

78​

41​

122​

163​

+2​

2.09​

0.53​

Ross​

0.71​

37​

146​

​

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

And litterally he himself was perhaps the reason why Jagr was able to elevate his even strength production. With Lemieux and co. on the first line facing the opponents best, Jagr Francis and Nedved were able to run wild on the second line vs checking lines. With all due respect to Jagr, one of my favorite players of all time, heck I loved watching him as much as Mario by that time - without Lemieux on that team there's no way he gets anywhere near 149 point or 95 ev points.

In 12 games without Lemieux in the lineup the Pens suffered a major power outage scoring just 31 goals and 13 of those came in two late season blowout games against the Rangers and Oilers. That's 2.6 per game, with Mario in they scored 331 in 70, or 4.7 per game!

Jagr himself did notch a more than respectable 10 goals, taking on more of the scoring burden but only tallied 14 points; 1.17 per game (12 at even strength). It's not a big sample size but it's enough of one to give us an idea.

I figure he'd still get 60-odd goals but his point totals is probably cut down to around 130 and he'd still be around a point a game at even strength, but certainly not 95 in 82. Mind you all that would be more than enough to win him the Ross and the Hart that year and probably also be the highest point total in the NHL since 92-93.

All in all I still think Mario was the biggest threat in "difficult to score situations" in the entire league. Jags had 42 ev & sh goals(98 ev+sh pt's) while Lemieux had 39 ev & sh goals (82 pt) - in 12 less games! It's laughable when people say stuff like; Lemieux had "poor numbers outside of the powerplay" that year.

I agree I think jagr benefitted from being sheltered that season as far as his numbers go. 73 EV points in 70 games is actually quite great and nothing to scoff at. This season by lemieux seems to be a polarizing one. You either have people that consider it a mega Elite season or it will get dissected unnecessarily. The numbers are among the most dominant season ever. 12 more points than prime jagr in 12 less games. 40 more with equal games. And 40 more points than the third leading scorer and closest non teamate in 12 less games no less.

189
149
120
Would have looked like. Nobody except gretzky has ever touched that kind of offensive dominance and it was in an extremely competitive NHL

 

[daver]

Not his peak, no.

But it's hard with Lemieux. I think he really started hitting his stride in the 1987-1988 season, and was even better in 88-89....and was as good as ever in following years/playoffs/93 comeback - problem he wasn't healthy at all in those stretches, and so it's all intermittent. He's by far the best player in the history of the NHL for whom we never got to see him really go "all out" at his peak.

Considering how little he played in 94 and 95, I skip those and by 96, although still absolutely fantastic, he was past his peak

I'd say his peak years are 88-93....with only one real "full" season in there, in 88-89.

How is it reasonable to think his 88/89 season was not "all out"?

 

[jigglysquishy]

That list is a great reminder that the adjusted numbers on H Reference are a complete mess.

I would put Howe 52-53 above Lemieux 95-96. Similar PPG dominance over non teammates. More dominant in goals and much more dominant on even strength. Much stronger two way game. But that's probably the only Howe season I'd put above Lemieux 95-96.

Beliveau, Lafleur, and Hull all have seasons that get the closest outside the Big Four and Espo, but none reach the heights of Lemieux 96.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

That list is a great reminder that the adjusted numbers on H Reference are a complete mess.

I would absolutely put Howe 52-53 above Lemieux 95-96. Similar PPG dominance over non teammates. More dominant in goals and much more dominant on even strength. Much stronger two way game. But that's the only Howe season I'd put above Lemieux 95-96.

Beliveau, Lafleur, and Hull all have seasons that get the closest outside the Big Four and Espo, but none reach the heights of Lemieux 96.

I fail to see how having 34 more points in the exact same amount of gp 70 than the closest non teamate is anywhere near as dominant as having 41 more points in 12 less games 82 vs 70 than the closest non teamate. His season was nowhere near as dominant as lemieuxs 96.