Was Eric Lindros overhyped when drafted?

[sr edler]

and he could drop the mitts with anyone. His fight card included a draw with Marty McSorley and a win over Chris Simon. To put that in perspective today: it would be like Ovechkin duking it out with Matt Rempe and Ryan Reaves and edging them or holding his own.

Lindros really could do it all... except keep his head up and avoid injury.

Who cares about someone's fight card? You're describing Lindros being able to fight goons but not being able to anticipate opposing players coming for him as some minor trade-off. Seems like a fairly grave trade-off to me.

And why in the world would Ovechkin fight someone like Rempe? Makes zero sense unless you have some Marvel movie fantasy going on.

 

[daver]

While true, there always a bit of was the competition got worst or Jagr got better, Sakic-Alfredsson also by moment felt like they were getting better as they were getting older.

That late 90s jagr probably does not separate himself from the pack in the early 90s vs prime Lemieux-Gretzky-Yzerman, would he have in the mid 90s vs old Lemieux, younger Jagr?

1996 Jagr scored 62 goals and 149 pts, it was not his peak relative to how he dominated his peers true, but it can be peers competition getting lower.

Steve Thomas best finish was at 35 years old in 1999, Mark Reechi in 2000 post 30, he was not better than in 1991, Gretzky-Hull/Aotes playing together was probably better competition than post injuries Kariya missing 8 games.

By the "pack", I mean the next 10/20 scorers, not just the 2nd best scorer. Peak Jagr beats Yzerman every year except 88/89.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I think he was given that he was basically hyped to be Lemieux plus Messier in one package. I don't think his career proved that quite right. I think when healthy he was a great player, but his style of play also directly led to injuries.

He wasn't just unlucky, there's a reason most skilled forwards by the 80s already no longer fought, no longer went seeking out big hits etc. Lindros' play always had the root of his downfall in it.

 

[MadLuke]

By the "pack", I mean the next 10/20 scorers, not just the 2nd best scorer. Peak Jagr beats Yzerman every year except 88/89.

Yes I meant the same, in 1996 Sundin&Lafontaine does not make the top 20 playing 76 games, Modano miss the top 30 playing 78, in 1999 Steve Thomas at 35 make the first Top 20 of is whole career, it is possible that the top players (top 20-40 or so) got worst from 1993 to 2003 and exaggerate how much Jagr became a better scorer after turning 25 than before a little bit (if that was the case), he was indeed more dominant versus his peers (not just the top 3 but the average top 30 scorer) later on, but I am not sure if it is because he got better.

To take an extreme example, Yzerman best all star team finish was in 2000, he certainly was not better than 12 years before, it is more about Messier-Lemieux-Gretzky not being as good (or in the league) by 2000, than Yzerman getting better.

 

[Boxscore]

Kasparaitis most famous hit on Lindros wasn't even remotely close to head-hunting, it was a beautiful textbook body-check. You're allowed to body-check in hockey. Scott Stevens never threw beautiful body-checks, but Kasparaitis could and did. Yes, he had a pest element to his game, and as he was a Euro player it probably rubbed some NA people the wrong way.

If you want to see actual head-hunting, re-watch some of Michael Peca's worst hits (on Öhlund, for instance) or Mike Richards' on David Booth. That's actual head-hunting. Richards even publicly regretted that hit, which I guess is fairly rare (?).

Personally, I was a big fan of Kaspar. Sure, he was a pest, and dirty, and nasty, but I loved him and would take him on my team any day. He was smallish but had the heart of a lion and would go to war with anyone.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Personally, I was a big fan of Kaspar. Sure, he was a pest, and dirty, and nasty, but I loved him and would take him on my team any day. He was smallish but had the heart of a lion and would go to war with anyone.

hard not to root for this guy











loved kaspar from the first time i saw him at the wjc. going into the 1992 draft he was far and away my number one pick.

this video is timestamped to him sending niedermayer head over heels (bonus young kovalev hot dogging footage at the end, and now that i’m remembering it, that tournament was my first inkling that winning maybe wasn’t everything to eric)

 

[The Panther]

Scott Stevens never threw beautiful body-checks, but Kasparaitis could and did.

Wait... what??

 

[OrrNumber4]

In my opinion, Lindros and Bobby Orr's careers are much more similar than some would like to admit.

Reading this post caused my gut to churn, as I realized that this is a very apt comparison.

 

[sr edler]

Wait... what??

Stevens threw devastating hits (or, in some cases, more like "hits", as he was quite often flailing around up high with his arms) but they were never beautiful. Stevens couldn't curl back and hit a target like Kaspar's biggest one on Lindros, or his hip-checks, just wasn't in his repertoire.

 

[daver]

Yes I meant the same, in 1996 Sundin&Lafontaine does not make the top 20 playing 76 games, Modano miss the top 30 playing 78, in 1999 Steve Thomas at 35 make the first Top 20 of is whole career, it is possible that the top players (top 20-40 or so) got worst from 1993 to 2003 and exaggerate how much Jagr became a better scorer after turning 25 than before a little bit (if that was the case), he was indeed more dominant versus his peers (not just the top 3 but the average top 30 scorer) later on, but I am not sure if it is because he got better.

To take an extreme example, Yzerman best all star team finish was in 2000, he certainly was not better than 12 years before, it is more about Messier-Lemieux-Gretzky not being as good (or in the league) by 2000, than Yzerman getting better.

That is quite the claim but this doesn't change the fact that in a Lindros vs. Jagr comparison, it is comparing Jagr (sans Mario) vs. Lindros which limits the relevant seasons to 97/98 to 99/00; Lindros also was apparently benefiting from a decrease in talent among the Top 20/40 up until his concussion on March 7th, 1998.

Through March 6th, 1998, Jagr (sans Mario) was beating Lindros 1.28 (1st in the league) to 1.14 for Lindros (5th best in the league). Jagr finished that year at 1.32. That season was the first real DPE season that saw only one break 100 points and only one other player pacing for a 100.

Jagr dominates the next two seasons on the strength of his ES scoring; something he clearly stepped up in the absence of Mario. There is no reason to believe that Lindros also steps in production (or rather in PPG dominance) if he stays healthy. I think he peaks at an offensive level that places him just below the 2nd tier forwards all-time (Jagr, Crosby and McDavid).

 

[MadLuke]

Lindros also was apparently benefiting from a decrease in talent among the Top 20/40 up until his concussion on March 7th, 1998.

Through March 6th, 1998, Jagr (sans Mario) was beating Lindros 1.28 (1st in the league) to 1.14 for Lindros (5th best in the league).

That well put, just to show what I meant, 1.28 would have been 37.6% higher than the #20 highest ppg that year (among the 41+ games played).

Lindros 1.58 ppg in 1996 was just 30% higher than the #20 highest ppg that year.

I really do not think that 1998 Lindros was necessarily more dominant than the 1996 version and he was so nhl ready physically that can I see him having peak aroiund 95-97, even if healthy he could very well had better number against the field (and the top outside Jagr even) from 98 to 2002 or so.

 

[Boxscore]

Who cares about someone's fight card? You're describing Lindros being able to fight goons but not being able to anticipate opposing players coming for him as some minor trade-off. Seems like a fairly grave trade-off to me.

And why in the world would Ovechkin fight someone like Rempe? Makes zero sense unless you have some Marvel movie fantasy going on.

You clearly missed my entire point about Lindros being an intimidating, dominant, total-package threat. How many elite superstars (in any era) could drop the gloves and fight top-tiered heavyweights? Maybe a handful at best?

And, just because his kryptonite was skating with his head down, doesn't take away from the fact that he was a complete monster.

 

[The Macho King]

IDK - as the next Mario and Wayne? Sure even at his peak he was never that transcendental talent. More of a "best player among a group of players" rather than "player who re-defines what is possible among hockey players."

As a great, top 3 in the league-level player? He matched that during his peak when he was healthy. The question is if his health should have been something that scouts identified as a risk factor to his longevity. On one hand - he was massive so you tend to think of those guys as sturdier. On the other, if I recall he did have a concussion in Juniors that kept him out for a bit back in the days where concussions were a) under-diagnosed and b) something that you pushed past to get back in the lineup quicker than they should have in hindsight.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Reading this post caused my gut to churn, as I realized that this is a very apt comparison.

I think it's actually not really true. Orr heralded the beginning of a new era of how D-men would play the game. Can a Paul Coffey exist without an Orr? We see that line carry through all the way to the current league.

Lindros on the other hand was the last of his ilk, already an anachronism when he started. The newer crop of big centers is closer in type to Joe Thornton - who entered the league just 5 years after Lindros (which seems shocking given how recently he still played)- than Eric Lindros and it's not even close. And even though Jumbo Joe had his own issues with injuries, there's a reason he played a 1000 more NHL games than Lindros, and it's not just coincidence.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Thornton seemed like he was going to be a little more in the agitation/toughness department, right? Then Lindros punched his head in...?

 

[BraveCanadian]

Thornton seemed like he was going to be a little more in the agitation/toughness department, right? Then Lindros punched his head in...?

Yeah, Thorton was supposed to be a bit of a Lindros-lite but then he got destroyed by the real deal and became a perimeter player forever more.

So that whole anachronism story makes no sense and every NHL team would love to have a Lindros right now. The “he skated with his head down the whole time” thing is an absolute caricature, and I kind of think the increased protection in the league today would outweigh the effect on his game. He could paste people and use his size and reach still.

Back in the day when the Legion of Doom set up on the cycle good luck getting the puck back.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

He was the real deal. Injuries derailed a great career.

 

[FissionFire]

A healthy Lindros would be viewed as a tier above Ovechkin/Crosby I think. He was just that good and dominant.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Here's the thing too, he played in an era where d-men often tee'd off on forwards. Now, less of that is going on because it's not an efficient means of playing defense in most situations.

He would have been spared to some degree in this era, but his lack of playmaking variance might have been more exposed...hard to say exactly.

I think he was more limited from a balanced attacking perspective than some of his biggest fans think.

 

[JackSlater]

Yeah, Thorton was supposed to be a bit of a Lindros-lite but then he got destroyed by the real deal and became a perimeter player forever more.

So that whole anachronism story makes no sense and every NHL team would love to have a Lindros right now. The “he skated with his head down the whole time” thing is an absolute caricature, and I kind of think the increased protection in the league today would outweigh the effect on his game. He could paste people and use his size and reach still.

Back in the day when the Legion of Doom set up on the cycle good luck getting the puck back.

The Lindros head down thing has a life of its own. Sometimes it is phrased as if Lindros could not skate with his head up, like some neanderthal on skates. Lindros didn't have a healthy sense of danger and took chances looking at the puck that others wouldn't, probably because he was Eric Lindros and he was bigger than anyone faster than him and faster than anyone bigger than him. He wasn't incapable of stickhandling without staring a hole in the puck, but you'd think that was the case.

 

[daver]

A healthy Lindros would be viewed as a tier above Ovechkin/Crosby I think. He was just that good and dominant.

Not offensively. Here is Lindros' completely cherrypicked 250 game best stretch of hockey from Dec. 28, 1993 to Jan. 3, 1998 (he gets his first concussion in March 1998):

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

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2nd in points
1st in PPG* (1.52 vs. 1.51 for Jagr)

The average PPG of the other Top Ten PPGs (min. 200 games): 1.26
Lindros' PPG is 20% better and
45% better than the #20 best PPG.
72% better than the #40 best PPG.

* min. 200 games


Here is Crosby's completely cherrypicked 247 game best stretch of hockey:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

T3rd in points
1st in PPG* (1.50 vs. 1.19 for Malkin)

The average PPG of the other Top Ten PPGs (min. 200 games): 1.06
Crosby's PPG is 41% better
69% better than #23
92% better than #46

 

[JianYang]

I think it's actually not really true. Orr heralded the beginning of a new era of how D-men would play the game. Can a Paul Coffey exist without an Orr? We see that line carry through all the way to the current league.

Lindros on the other hand was the last of his ilk, already an anachronism when he started. The newer crop of big centers is closer in type to Joe Thornton - who entered the league just 5 years after Lindros (which seems shocking given how recently he still played)- than Eric Lindros and it's not even close. And even though Jumbo Joe had his own issues with injuries, there's a reason he played a 1000 more NHL games than Lindros, and it's not just coincidence.

Byfuglien kind of reminded me of lindros in certain respects but you're right, there's not a great comparison out there since.

 

[FissionFire]

Not offensively. Here is Lindros' completely cherrypicked 250 game best stretch of hockey from Dec. 28, 1993 to Jan. 3, 1998 (he gets his first concussion in March 1998):

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

2nd in points
1st in PPG* (1.52 vs. 1.51 for Jagr)

The average PPG of the other Top Ten PPGs (min. 200 games): 1.26
Lindros' PPG is 20% better and 45% better than the #20 best PPG.

* min. 200 games


Here is Crosby's completely cherrypicked 247 game best stretch of hockey:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

T3rd in points
1st in PPG* (1.50 vs. 1.19 for Malkin)

The average PPG of the other Top Ten PPGs (min. 200 games): 1.06
Crosby's PPG is 41% better and 65% better than #20

It was far more difficult to distance from the pack in the DPE than it was in later years where the scoring ranges were larger. The fact that Lindros had a better PPG in the height of the DPE than Crosby in a far more forgiving scoring era speaks volumes.

You could also argue that Lindros had better players in the league during his stretch than Crosby competed against. You still had Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Fedorov, Bure, Sakic, Francis, Forsberg, Hull, prime Selanne, Kariya, etc. Many all-time greats and top 100 players. Versus Crosby putting his numbers up against Malkin, Ovechkin, Datsyuk, Getzlaf, Iginla, Kovalchuk, Sedins, Thornton, St. Louis, Stamkos, Perry, 40yr old Selanne, Kane, Giroux, Seguin, etc. There really is no contest between who had the better peer group to compete against.

 

[MadLuke]

It was far more difficult to distance from the pack in the DPE than it was in later years where the scoring ranges were larger.

Not sure that follow, if scoring is lower you can still score 20% more anyone else.

93 to 98 was not lower scoring than 2009 to 2014, average goal scored by games during those stretch in that post

Lindros: 2.996 goals per games
Crosby.: 2.692 goals per games

Lindros was quite higher.
Better high end argument until the 1997 season do make some sense.

 

[daver]

It was far more difficult to distance from the pack in the DPE than it was in later years where the scoring ranges were larger. The fact that Lindros had a better PPG in the height of the DPE than Crosby in a far more forgiving scoring era speaks volumes.

You make a good point about it being harder to distance from the pack in lower scoring eras. You may want to check out this thread on that very topic: Scoring levels of the "pack" over the past 30 years in relation to League GPG

Lower scoring, particularly lower PP scoring creates more parity.

You make a bad point when you think that argument favours Lindros, not Crosby. Not only did Crosby play in lower scoring years overall, it was arguably even harder for the high end scorers in the DPE 2.0.