Online Series: WandaVision - Spring 2021 on Disney+

[Osprey]

As someone who doesn't know Marvel from DC, watching this made me realize that I made the right call in not watching past the first episode. I would've been so lost.

 

[Jussi]

No one will be able to say directly, as there's no episodes out or even advance reviews that I'm aware of.

But, I feel based on Wandavision, you're going to get something that's aiming for same standard of the MCU movies.

I found that was a big draw for me for WV. After a year and a half, it was nice to be back in that universe.

I'd say it's worth a go.

We're in the WandaVision thread. He's talking about WandaVision.

 

[Jussi]

Well I just found about ViShawn.

 

[discostu]

We're in the WandaVision thread. He's talking about WandaVision.

That makes a lot more sense.

I'll just shut up now.

 

[Dubi Doo]

As someone who doesn't know Marvel from DC, watching this made me realize that I made the right call in not watching past the first episode. I would've been so lost.

I have zero in-depth knowledge of the Marvel universe, and I was able to keep up. I mean- people on here were talking about stuff that flew right over my head. Still, this show was awesome, and even tugged at my emotions a bit.

 

[John Price]

Thinking about signing up for Disney plus for one month to watch this, worth it?

ye

 

[Dubi Doo]

Thinking about signing up for Disney plus for one month to watch this, worth it?

Hell yeah! This show and The Mandalorian make it an easy choice!

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Agatha even tells her multiple times "you have no idea who you are" or some variation of that.

The core theme of the show is Wanda's grief. Just because Agatha looks at the camera and says, "You don't know who are!" doesn't mean the show is about that or explores it in a substantive manner.

What do we see Wanda struggle with? Her grief.
What drives the conflict of the show? Her grief.

The theme of her not knowing her identity was absolutely addressed. The entire sequence where they jump her through memory makes it abundantly clear.

The point of that sequence was to show just how much trauma Wanda had suffered leading up the events of the show, and by the point of creating the Westview bubble it became too much and she snapped.

I mean, in that sequence Agatha is calling her a witch and Wanda is repeatedly denying it, because Wanda is certain she is not a witch. That is not the behavior of someone whose central inner burning question is, "Who am I?" And the ending of her adopting the Scarlett Witch mantle is, again, her adopting an identity another person gave her?

I think you're giving the writers of this show too much credit on this point.

 

[Tawnos]

The core theme of the show is Wanda's grief. Just because Agatha looks at the camera and says, "You don't know who are!" doesn't mean the show is about that or explores it in a substantive manner.

What do we see Wanda struggle with? Her grief.
What drives the conflict of the show? Her grief.




The point of that sequence was to show just how much trauma Wanda had suffered leading up the events of the show, and by the point of creating the Westview bubble it became too much and she snapped.

I mean, in that sequence Agatha is calling her a witch and Wanda is repeatedly denying it, because Wanda is certain she is not a witch. That is not the behavior of someone whose central inner burning question is, "Who am I?" And the ending of her adopting the Scarlett Witch mantle is, again, her adopting an identity another person gave her?

I think you're giving the writers of this show too much credit on this point.

You're right... a show can't have two central themes. Things can only have one meaning, and that's it.

 

[Pranzo Oltranzista]

You're right... a show can't have two central themes. Things can only have one meaning, and that's it.

Funny because you accuse him of formal fallacy when it's your conclusion that's dishonest. He never said it couldn't have more than a single meaning.

"You don't know who are!" doesn't mean the show [...] explores it in a substantive manner.

Thank you. Same about grief.

 

[The Macho King]

Thinking about signing up for Disney plus for one month to watch this, worth it?

Mandolorian is better, but binging both - I can think of worst ways to spend 7 bucks.

 

[Tawnos]

Funny because you accuse him of formal fallacy when it's your conclusion that's dishonest. He never said it couldn't have more than a single meaning.



Thank you. Same about grief.

Just because somebody never said something doesn't mean that it wasn't implied by the post. Resorting to "fallacy" arguments doesn't contribute to the conversation, it only limits it.

 

[HanSolo]

Good show with some solid stuff but man did they ever tune up Wanda and she's only supposed to get stronger now.

I mean she was already pretty much demigoddess tier. Now she's like a walking infinity stone. Kinda adds to the whole "why don't the other Avengers help out?" aspect of the standalone movies. Captain Marvel has the excuse that she has other planets in her priorities. What's stopping Wanda from stepping in and making a joke out of any threat?

Edit: I'm lame and can't stop thinking about this but I think it's important in this medium that the heroes have some degree of limitations. In Infinity War, when Captain America stops and holds a punch from Thanos, that scene is noteworthy and a small but effective character moment because we know Rodgers has limitations and stopping Thanos like he did was him laying it all out at the top bound of his limitations. Now I can't take any fight Wanda participates in seriously if I see them tuning her down to make things seem more even or like she's actually struggling unless the opponent is a super high powered threat.

Also I can't tell if they were intentionally making the comedy kinda crappy or if they were actually trying but man, 90% of the jokes just do not land.

 

[Jussi]

Good show with some solid stuff but man did they ever tune up Wanda and she's only supposed to get stronger now.

I mean she was already pretty much demigoddess tier. Now she's like a walking infinity stone. Kinda adds to the whole "why don't the other Avengers help out?" aspect of the standalone movies. Captain Marvel has the excuse that she has other planets in her priorities. What's stopping Wanda from stepping in and making a joke out of any threat?

Also I can't tell if they were intentionally making the comedy kinda crappy or if they were actually trying but man, 90% of the jokes just do not land.

The jokes were intended to reflect the era of the shows. Humor or jokes wasn't the point of those sitcom episodes.

 

[Jussi]

In case people didn't watch the Matt Shakman interview on Fatman Beyond, the clip where Wanda says "I don't understand this power. But I will." was filmed afterwards and added in.

 

[ItsFineImFine]

So this is what a hangover feels like.

 

[HanSolo]

The jokes were intended to reflect the era of the shows. Humor or jokes wasn't the point of those sitcom episodes.

I mean that was kind of the sense I got.

The Malcolm in the Middle intro cracked me up though.

 

[Jussi]

The Making Of episode is under Marvel Assembled.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

You're right... a show can't have two central themes. Things can only have one meaning, and that's it.

No, I just think your interpretation isn't supported by a textual analysis.

Thank you. Same about grief.

Yeah, the grief is basically the impetus for the inciting incident, but it doesn't do anything with it? Her grief causes her to create the anomaly, then when she is forced to confront that she's making others suffer she's like, oh, whoops, and reverses it as soon as she is able. It doesn't explore her grief beyond using it as a starting point.

Look at BoJack Horseman (an example of a show multiple things btw), it doesn't only say "toxic people exist!", like no duh, it says "toxic people exist and its ok to cut them out of your life!". Which is a statement critical to understanding the show. I dont think Wanda's identity rises to that level.

 

[NyQuil]

Look at BoJack Horseman (an example of a show multiple things btw), it doesn't only say "toxic people exist!", like no duh, it says "toxic people exist and its ok to cut them out of your life!". Which is a statement critical to understanding the show. I dont think Wanda's identity rises to that level.

Over a period of ~33 hours of screentime.

 

[Jussi]

I wouldn't be surprised if Matt Shakman directs another Marvel series for Disney+. He loves (Marvel) comics, loved the experience and due to Covid, has no other work lined up.

 

[barriers]

Edit: I'm lame and can't stop thinking about this but I think it's important in this medium that the heroes have some degree of limitations. In Infinity War, when Captain America stops and holds a punch from Thanos, that scene is noteworthy and a small but effective character moment because we know Rodgers has limitations and stopping Thanos like he did was him laying it all out at the top bound of his limitations. Now I can't take any fight Wanda participates in seriously if I see them tuning her down to make things seem more even or like she's actually struggling unless the opponent is a super high powered threat..

Your example of Cap holding his own against Thanos is the perfect example of the same problem you have with Wanda. One movie Cap struggles with Batroc the leaper and another he can stand with Thanos who wields 5/6 of the Infinity gems.

The Marvel movies are never going to have characters strengths and limitations consistent, just like their source material.

 

[HanSolo]

Your example of Cap holding his own against Thanos is the perfect example of the same problem you have with Wanda. One movie Cap struggles with Batroc the leaper and another he can stand with Thanos who wields 5/6 of the Infinity gems.

The Marvel movies are never going to have characters strengths and limitations consistent, just like their source material.

Well yes. It's definitely inconsistent. But I think in the Cap/Thanos example it's a bit excusable with narrative context. When Cap stands his ground against Thanos, he's in a situation where he's really become the second to last line of defense. If he can't stop Thanos' advance and he gets through Wanda, everything is lost. In that scenario it makes sense that you'd see Cap pushing the very limit of his strength that you wouldn't otherwise see. But the fact that he doesn't overpower Thanos and merely holds him off for a few seconds, inviting Thanos to actually try to incapacitate him is an indicator of his limitations.

When Wanda is on the verge of killing Thanos in the final battle its a channeling of all her vengeful rage that could've killed Thanos if she hadn't been interrupted. But Thanos was still able to resist all her power for a while so there's a limitation there, even if it rests Wanda pretty squarely among the three most powerful avengers.

Here the only limitation we get is that she had a pretty fairly matched fight with Agatha. But the only reason that could happen is Agatha was capable of absorbing and siphoning Wanda's power. Past that, Wanda's grief manifested so strongly that she distorted the reality of an entire town, possessed the minds of all its inhabitants, and created physical manifestations of Vision and their children that never really were.

I mean that's more or less Wanda pulling reality stone shenanigans without the benefit of an infinity stone. And she's only supposed to become stronger now that she's embraced the power of the Scarlet Witch. I can deal with a little power inconsistency to service plot and action. But this, to me, is too far. Anything that happens in the MCU going forward will be tinged with "if Wanda were here it'd be over in a heartbeat" and I'm sure they'll use the excuse of "Wanda can't be found" as she studies in isolation but eventually she'll have to figure back into things and she'll basically be a goddess when she does. Like at this point I don't see how anyone is even close to being the strongest Avenger.

It's like the reverse of X-men apocalypse where, aside from other issues with the film, Apocalypse is shown to be so absurdly powerful that it makes the X-Men's triumph over him feel contrived and convenient. You can't have Wanda face a compelling adversity now without either having a villain or threat that is ludicrously powerful or retcon the increase in the power she gained in this series.

Like I get what they were going for with the Hex in telling a grandiose tale of grief and loss and it worked in the bubble of this series. But the implications it has going forward are rough. I kinda wish there had been some other force driving the Hex. Even it had mean Agatha was behind all of it. Or Agatha's presence amplified Wanda's capabilities to a degree that made the events of the show possible. Instead we watch 9 episodes of Wanda's power amplified grief that culminates in her going forward as basically a magical goddess with immense power. Immense power that I think steps a bit too far out of what is compelling and enjoyable.

 

[MMC]

Anyone else watch the Assembled episode about the making of this show?

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

Anyone else watch the Assembled episode about the making of this show?

Yeah. I enjoyed it! Nothing ground breaking but it was a pretty cool behind the scenes. Also was interesting to see what was filmed pre- and post-COVID without it being directly referenced.