Voting Record - VanIslander, Mike Farkas, tony d

[Staniowski]

That Bobby Orr had a massive impact on everyone in Boston, including Espo.

Didn't think I made it that hard to figure out.

Of course Orr had a big impact on everyone on the Bruins.

Esposito also had a big impact on everyone on the Bruins.

And when they lost both of them, the Bruins continued to be probably the 2nd most successful team in the NHL (behind arguably the best team in NHL history) for the next half-decade.

All of these things are true.

 

[Staniowski]

So a near 30% reduction in production while at Boston when Orr wasn't on the ice with him.

Wrong!

30%? I can't believe you guys are still trying to peddle this nonsense. It's a failed hypothesis. Not only was there not a 30% reduction in Esposito's numbers when Orr wasn't playing, but there wasn't any reduction. Esposito's numbers were about the same with or without Orr. And for the large majority of the games without Orr, Esposito scored at a higher rate than he did with Orr.

 

[Staniowski]

I don't equate Espo's lesser production without Orr

Esposito didn't have lesser production without Orr. In fact, for the large majority of the games without Orr, Esposito's production increased.

Look at the data. It's not complicated.

 

[Midnight Judges]

In the thread where i defended the project against Penguins bias we have someone now arguing Ovechkin is one of the most overrated players of all time and arguing that shooting more and scoring more goals is a negative.

Ok then.

I told you so?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Well, both Bossy and Ovechkin are presently tied with 553 career RS assists. Bossy in 752 games, Ovi in 1084 games.

Setting aside shot counting, this points to a significant difference in team puck distribution offensively.

Not really.

Goals per game were 33.8% higher in Bossy's 10 seasons than they were in Ovechkin's first 10 seasons.

When you adjust for era, Ovechkin's assists per game in his first 10 seasons (760 games) is .7396 vs .7353 for Bossy.

And Bossy played on a dynasty with 4 other hall of famers. Ovechkin has 1 maybe hall of famer in Backstrom.

 

[DitchMarner]

Shooting on net is generally considered a good thing in hockey. Even before the whole "possession" stats fad (where things like shots and shot attempts are used as proxies for possession), there was the old adage, "a shot on goal is never a bad play." Of course, Gretzky also said you fail to score on 100% of the shots you don't take (or whatever the line was exactly).

I mean, when people look at boxscores after games, should they really get more excited by seeing a shot on goal or two as opposed to six or seven?

 

[Canadiens1958]

What an epiphany.

33.8% difference in scoring. Surprised that no one is positing that as a result Ovi is app. 20-25 goals away from Gretzky's career RS record.

Not how it works.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Shooting on net is generally considered a good thing in hockey. Even before the whole "possession" stats fad (where things like shots and shot attempts are used as proxies for possession), there was the old adage, "a shot on goal is never a bad play." Of course, Gretzky also said you fail to score on 100% of the shots you don't take (or whatever the line was exactly).

Corollary would be that the opposition does not score on any shots that are prevented.

 

[Midnight Judges]

What an epiphany.

33.8% difference in scoring. Surprised that no one is positing that as a result Ovi is app. 20-25 goals away from Gretzky's career RS record.

Not how it works.

Actually as a result Ovechkin tops Gretzky's regular season mark of 92 goals.

In 81-82 4.01 goals were scored per team per game.

In 07-08 that number was 2.78.

4.01 / 2.78 = 1.4424

1.4424 x 65 goals = 94 goals

Much like Bossy, Gretzky had 5 other hall of famers on his team (4 skaters) - to Ovechkin's 1 maybe.

 

[Canadiens1958]

New metric total HHOF teammates.

Totally ignores total HHOFers per opposing team or in the league(goes to strength of the league).

How many of the opposing 30 or 29 NHL teams had 0 future HHOFers during Ovi's career?

 

[daver]

New metric total HHOF teammates.

Totally ignores total HHOFers per opposing team or in the league(goes to strength of the league).

How many of the opposing 30 or 29 NHL teams had 0 future HHOFers during Ovi's career?

You would think it may be a tad easier to accumulate HOF type accolades when you are competing against five times less the players for scoring titles, all-star nods, trophy nominations wouldn't you?

There is zero reason to believe that the top 1/5 of the league's current players would not be challenging the best of the 06 era for HOF type performances in any given year.

The "well he faced Doug Harvey 12 times a year" argument fails to pass the statistical smell test.

 

[daver]

Missing the point completely.

Since 2005-06 Washington has lead the NHL in RS goal scoring only one time, while Ovi has lead the league in RS goal scoring eight times.

Given that the sport is a team game, Ovi's efforts including RS shot totals do not generate proportionate team success.

Playoffs have always mattered serving as a counterpoint to limited and misleading RS results.

The only thing that was misleading was you trying to proclaim that OV's goalscoring has not translated to RS success for the Caps.

 

[daver]

Yet they routinely fall short of expectations, time and time again. I mean how pathetic is it that a team with a borderline top 20 player of all time has been past the 2nd round once in 14 years? A team that has held the Presidents trophy 3 or 4 times now?

One can easily point to multiple Cap players clearly falling a lot shorter of expectations than OV did. At this point, OV has removed any negative his playoff resume may have on his career resume but he certainly doesn't get any points for it when looking at other Top 20 players. He and Jagr are very similar in that regard.

That you never want to give any credit for OV's finishing ability as the reason he gets the puck directed to him so often hurts your not unreasonable comment on shot volume.

At the end of the day, this can serve to differentiate him from other noted goalscorers who were able to put up elite totals on less shots (relative to the league) but discounting the value his goals brought to his team is a very sketchy proposition.

 

[Canadiens1958]

The Top 1/5 metric.

Sadly proponents of this do not make the connections logically within the team regardless of era. Specifically, Ovi's Capitals, 1/5 of the Capitals did not have any skills close to Ovi's finishing ability. Little point feeding them the puck under such circumstances.

Conversely earlier eras, featured teams where 1/5 of team members had finishing abilities. Teams actually had 2-3 different players winning the Art Ross Trophy. So puck distribution tended to be much more balanced. Ovi's capitals are far removed from such talent levels.

 

[Midnight Judges]

The Top 1/5 metric.

Sadly proponents of this do not make the connections logically within the team regardless of era. Specifically, Ovi's Capitals, 1/5 of the Capitals did not have any skills close to Ovi's finishing ability. Little point feeding them the puck under such circumstances.

He's only on the ice for a third of the game.

 

[ImporterExporter]

One can easily point to multiple Cap players clearly falling a lot shorter of expectations than OV did. At this point, OV has removed any negative his playoff resume may have on his career resume but he certainly doesn't get any points for it when looking at other Top 20 players. He and Jagr are very similar in that regard.

That you never want to give any credit for OV's finishing ability as the reason he gets the puck directed to him so often hurts your not unreasonable comment on shot volume.

At the end of the day, this can serve to differentiate him from other noted goalscorers who were able to put up elite totals on less shots (relative to the league) but discounting the value his goals brought to his team is a very sketchy proposition.

You and others keep deflecting and it's so obvious and pathetic.

Ovechkin scores the most goals, in large part, because he shoots vastly more than any other player in the league. Vastly. Not a little bit. Not by a moderate amount. The gap is MASSIVE.

His advantage in goal scoring totals does not correlate with his massive shot advantage he holds over the field. Period. Don't bother arguing because mathematically this is a factually true statement. There is no counter this this.

Ovechkin has never shot above 14.6% over the course of a single season. He has led the league in shots on net in all but 3 of his seasons. He has led the league in total shot attempts in every single season he's played.

The fact that people think 8 was the best goal scorer this past year is comical when it took him shooting the puck at the net 200+ more times then the guy who finished 2nd, who by the way had one, ONE less goal than Ovi.

I have never, in my life, seen such a blatant disregard for simple mathematics, efficiency and context when it comes to evaluating the value of a stand a lone stat.

Maybe the Caps would be better served not trying to force the puck to Ovechkin so that he can inflate his individual records. I've long said this is the main reason why they've had failure after failure, pathetic early exit after pathetic early exit. Playoff hockey is completely different then the regular season. You have a shoot first, shoot often superstar, who plays the least important position in hockey (wing) and for much of his career hasn't given a damn about defensive hockey.

Is it really any wonder why arguably the most dominant regular season franchise since 2005-06 has been past the 2nd round of the playoffs ONCE?

ONCE.

 

[daver]

You and others keep deflecting and it's so obvious and pathetic.

It's called discussing, not deflecting, and your attempts to make this personal is rather obvious and pathetic.

 

[MXD]

It's called discussing, not deflecting, and your attempts to make this personal is rather obvious and pathetic.

I don't quite agree with IE's point (and not only because Ovechkin did shoot more than 14.6% this season), but you just litterally resorted to call him names based on one line (that had nothing to do with his point) out of a post containing about 20.

Based on that, I'd say you're the one making this personnal.

More importantly, why is this being discussed here? VanIslander and Tony were "neutral" on Ovechkin, while Mike Farkas was on the low range, but mostly because he was REALLY high (group-wise) on D-Men and Martin Brodeur.

 

[daver]

I don't quite agree with IE's point (and not only because Ovechkin did shoot more than 14.6% this season), but you just litterally resorted to call him names based on one line (that had nothing to do with his point) out of a post containing about 20.

What name did I call him? And whatever I did, it was in response to being called "pathetic".

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

You and others keep deflecting and it's so obvious and pathetic.

Ovechkin scores the most goals, in large part, because he shoots vastly more than any other player in the league. Vastly. Not a little bit. Not by a moderate amount. The gap is MASSIVE.

His advantage in goal scoring totals does not correlate with his massive shot advantage he holds over the field. Period. Don't bother arguing because mathematically this is a factually true statement. There is no counter this this.

Ovechkin has never shot above 14.6% over the course of a single season. He has led the league in shots on net in all but 3 of his seasons. He has led the league in total shot attempts in every single season he's played.

The fact that people think 8 was the best goal scorer this past year is comical when it took him shooting the puck at the net 200+ more times then the guy who finished 2nd, who by the way had one, ONE less goal than Ovi.

I have never, in my life, seen such a blatant disregard for simple mathematics, efficiency and context when it comes to evaluating the value of a stand a lone stat.

Maybe the Caps would be better served not trying to force the puck to Ovechkin so that he can inflate his individual records. I've long said this is the main reason why they've had failure after failure, pathetic early exit after pathetic early exit. Playoff hockey is completely different then the regular season. You have a shoot first, shoot often superstar, who plays the least important position in hockey (wing) and for much of his career hasn't given a damn about defensive hockey.

Is it really any wonder why arguably the most dominant regular season franchise since 2005-06 has been past the 2nd round of the playoffs ONCE?

ONCE.

Is it your contention that shooting percentage is a better indicator than total goals in considering who is a better goal scorer?

 

[Midnight Judges]

The fact that people think 8 was the best goal scorer this past year is comical when it took him shooting the puck at the net 200+ more times then the guy who finished 2nd, who by the way had one, ONE less goal than Ovi.

How much team success did that guy have? Or is team success only a major indicator when it supports your assertions?

BTW Ovechkin could have easily had 54, had it not been for his unselfishness:

 

[Midnight Judges]

And that is why Washington has had so many problems through the Ovi era. They are so focused on getting him the puck so he can just bomb shots at the net that it actually makes them easier to defend and predict. And I never understood why. It's not like Ovechkin is Marcel Dionne and surrounded by crap teammates. He's been extremely fortunate to have a stud playmaking C in Backstrom next to him for the bulk of his career, at ES and on special teams. He's almost always had at least one All Star caliber player on his line and the Caps have almost always had good to great depth as a team.

Nick Backstrom has played in 2 All Star games in 12 years. He has never made first or second team. Third, fourth, and sixth once each.

He's a fine player but his stats are inflated by playing with Ovechkin - which is not coincidentally why Backstrom leads the NHL in secondary assists post lockout.

Yet they routinely fall short of expectations, time and time again. I mean how pathetic is it that a team with a borderline top 20 player of all time has been past the 2nd round once in 14 years? A team that has held the Presidents trophy 3 or 4 times now?

This paragraph reflects a severe lack of understanding for the game. One great player does not make a team. Mario Lemeiux - at his peak - could not even get his team into the playoffs back when 16 out of 21 teams made it in. Would you also say that is "pathetic?"

It's not until Lemieux had 5 other hall of famers that he had success, and without them Lemieux's Pens went nowhere.

Same goes for Crosby, who has had the third best player of this generation on his team for his entire career. Crosby has never had success in the postseason without Malkin, and vice-versa. This is not a coincidence.

You hold Ovechkin to a standard neither Lemieux or Crosby (or anyone really) has ever achieved.

Ovechkin is top 3 in points per game of this generation in the playoffs (greater than 50 games played). He is #1 in goals per game in the playoffs. Ovechkin has one less playoff goal than Crosby in 36 fewer games. Ovechkin is the absolute last person any rational person would blame for the Caps' postseason problems. And yet here you are.

The only rational way to view the things you say about Ovechkin is within the context that you are a Penguins fan.

Your views on Ovechkin simply have no integrity and no merit.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Is it your contention that shooting percentage is a better indicator than total goals in considering who is a better goal scorer?

Nope.

Have never argued that or suggested it.

But there are two types of goal scorers.

Snipers and volume scorers.

Ovechkin is closer to the the latter than former and it's easily supported by his massive advantage in shots attempted vs goals scored against the field. It's not complicated.

His goal scoring titles and winning margins are not relative to the massive advantage he has enjoyed by launching thousands more shots at the net vs any other player since 05-06. It's a yearly advantage or a career advantage. No matter how you slice it.

It'd be like an NFL QB leading the league in passing yards 10 years running while also throwing anywhere from 30-60% more than all other QB's in the league, year to year.

Team game and all. Context and all. More chances = greater odds.

Unless you or MJ are going to suggest goal scorers in the NHL score goals without the work of others to facilitate said goal scorers. Or that all shots are created equal and Ovechkin has never taken a bad shot (or that bad shots don't exist).

That's not to say that Ovechkin isn't one of the greatest goal scorers ever. He certainly is.

But he's held a bigger advantage as a volume scorer than any other elite goal scorer in the history of the league. Only Bobby Hull shot the puck more per game than 8. And Hull was being chased by Bobby Orr (2nd) and Gordie Howe (3rd). A far cry from the people trailing Ovechkin. Plus, the per game disparity isn't anywhere near as massive as the one between Ovechkin and 2nd and 3rd place today.

The man who will undoubtedly break Gretzky's record (because shit like that actually matters to 8) has already taken more shots than Gretzky did in his entire career. Let that sink in. How big will that advantage be when 8 passes 99??? And people already proclaim him the greatest all time because he has the most Rocket's? That's it? Really. That's the bar we're going to set here?

Ovechkin, since 2011 (since that's as far back as enhanced stats go right now) has MISSED 1586 shots.

The next closest guy?

Joe Pavelski at 917.

Hell, the next closest guy in shots per game to 8 since 05-06 is Evander bleeping Kane, 1.26 shots fewer per.

But of course, shooting the puck at the net is a highly refined skill, right?

My contention, is if it's such a great thing, able to prop up a stand alone stat like goal scoring, then why haven't the Capitals, winners of what, 3 (or 4?) President's trophies not managed to replicate their regular season dominance in the postseason?

Can any team definitively say they have been better in the 82 game slates since 05-06?

I sure can't.

Yet this same team, being led by a guy who scores goals by the bunches routinely falls short when things tighten up.

Maybe all those shots by an individual and all those goal scoring titles aren't as important in the grand scheme as people think.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Nope.

Have never argued that or suggested it.

But there are two types of goal scorers.

Snipers and volume scorers.

Ovechkin is closer to the the latter than former and it's easily supported by his massive advantage in shots attempted vs goals scored against the field. It's not complicated.

His goal scoring titles and winning margins are not relative to the massive advantage he has enjoyed by launching thousands more shots at the net vs any other player since 05-06. It's a yearly advantage or a career advantage. No matter how you slice it.

It'd be like an NFL QB leading the league in passing yards 10 years running while also throwing anywhere from 30-60% more than all other QB's in the league, year to year.

Team game and all. Context and all. More chances = greater odds.

Unless you or MJ are going to suggest goal scorers in the NHL score goals without the work of others to facilitate said goal scorers. Or that all shots are created equal and Ovechkin has never taken a bad shot (or that bad shots don't exist).

That's not to say that Ovechkin isn't one of the greatest goal scorers ever. He certainly is.

But he's held a bigger advantage as a volume scorer than any other elite goal scorer in the history of the league. Only Bobby Hull shot the puck more per game than 8. And Hull was being chased by Bobby Orr (2nd) and Gordie Howe (3rd). A far cry from the people trailing Ovechkin. Plus, the per game disparity isn't anywhere near as massive as the one between Ovechkin and 2nd and 3rd place today.

The man who will undoubtedly break Gretzky's record (because **** like that actually matters to 8) has already taken more shots than Gretzky did in his entire career. Let that sink in. How big will that advantage be when 8 passes 99??? And people already proclaim him the greatest all time because he has the most Rocket's? That's it? Really. That's the bar we're going to set here?

Ovechkin, since 2011 (since that's as far back as enhanced stats go right now) has MISSED 1586 shots.

The next closest guy?

Joe Pavelski at 917.

Hell, the next closest guy in shots per game to 8 since 05-06 is Evander bleeping Kane, 1.26 shots fewer per.

But of course, shooting the puck at the net is a highly refined skill, right?

My contention, is if it's such a great thing, able to prop up a stand alone stat like goal scoring, then why haven't the Capitals, winners of what, 3 (or 4?) President's trophies not managed to replicate their regular season dominance in the postseason?

Can any team definitively say they have been better in the 82 game slates since 05-06?

I sure can't.

Yet this same team, being led by a guy who scores goals by the bunches routinely falls short when things tighten up.

Maybe all those shots by an individual and all those goal scoring titles aren't as important in the grand scheme as people think.

Perhaps Joe Pavelski and Evander Kane are underrated?

 

[VanIslander]

Indeed, OV is not a sniper, but he is a prolific goal scorer.

And, at the end of the day, the number of shots DOESN'T MATTER WHATSOEVER!

Scoring goals matters.

Whomever scored more goals gets more praise, and deservedly so, as a goal scorer.

All coulda, woulda, shoulda aside.