Voting Record - VanIslander, Mike Farkas, tony d

[sr edler]

You and the other regulars who scoff at the notion that having a couple thousand shot advantage in a goal scoring race means you have a much greater chance of winning said goal scoring race are comical.

Nowhere have I ever seen such resistance to context when it comes to goal scoring relative to other team sports where shots or passes are absolutely taken into account when determining value, especially as it pertains to efficiency or impact on team performance.

But no, Ovechkin can just launch rubber at will and nobody examines the context as it pertains to efficiency or the factual statement that all shots are not created equal and having thousands of more shots inherently gives you a greater chance at scoring goals. Just like this past year it literally took Ovechkin more than a 100 shots on net and over 200 total shots (misses/blocks/etc) to score a whopping 1 more goal then the guy who finished in 2nd place and gleam about it being some massive achievement...

It's lunacy. But to be expected by the usual suspects.

One way wingers who have largely ignored a major part (defense) of playing professional hockey while hamstringing their team because they are forced the puck are the most overrated players in the history of this sport.

At least someone like Mike Bossy can say he scored 573 goals in just 752 games and never once led the league in shot totals.

That's a lot of words, but I'm not part of a clique here so no idea what you mean by usual suspects.

If you've ever played these types of ball sports yourself (at lower levels, hockey, floorball, et cetera) you know that volume shooting can be a way to maintain pressure and/or create havoc. It's a suspect/risky tactic though at higher levels because you easily give away possession with or without guys hounding the puck and/or rebounds. That's not the point though, whether it's successful or not, the point was "is it easy for anyone to do", and all the evidence points to "no, it isn't".

 

[Canadiens1958]

Missing the point completely.

Since 2005-2006, Washing had the 3rd most regular season points and 3rd more regular season wins out of all teams. Considering the point of this team game is to actually win games and not just have your team score a lot of goals - i'd say that Ovi's regular season goal totals have a direct correlation to team success.

Since 2007-2008 - you know, the year of Ovechkin's first goal-scoring titles - Washington has more regular season points than any other teams. Having the best goal scorer in the regular season = good regular season team success. The proportions seem just fine to me, thanks.

On another note - remind us why wayne Gretzky is only the 7th best player all time while his teams was 1st in points, goal-scoring, playoff to go along with his individual successes?

Not so in the playoffs when it matters. Washington is only 4 games over .500 in the playoffs and missed the playoff three times during Ovi's career, not winning multiple SCs like Chicago, Pittsburgh, LA. Effectively there are better,more efficient approaches to team success.

Gretzky's teams were not first in SC success. Islanders won just as often. Messier's SC record is better. You do not have videos of Trottier, Messier, Bossy letting the team down defensively in the playoffs like Gretzky did.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Well, both Bossy and Ovechkin are presently tied with 553 career RS assists. Bossy in 752 games, Ovi in 1084 games.

Setting aside shot counting, this points to a significant difference in team puck distribution offensively.

More to the point. Washington is running two different offences. One with Ovi, another without.

And that is why Washington has had so many problems through the Ovi era. They are so focused on getting him the puck so he can just bomb shots at the net that it actually makes them easier to defend and predict. And I never understood why. It's not like Ovechkin is Marcel Dionne and surrounded by crap teammates. He's been extremely fortunate to have a stud playmaking C in Backstrom next to him for the bulk of his career, at ES and on special teams. He's almost always had at least one All Star caliber player on his line and the Caps have almost always had good to great depth as a team.

Yet they routinely fall short of expectations, time and time again. I mean how pathetic is it that a team with a borderline top 20 player of all time has been past the 2nd round once in 14 years? A team that has held the Presidents trophy 3 or 4 times now?

Washington doesn't need to force 8 the puck. Many of his shots have no business being taken, have no chance of going in yet some defend the "art" and scoff at the absolute mathematical fact that taking more shots at the net means you have an inherently greater chance of scoring goals. So a guy that takes 700 shots at the net and scores 50 is still though of as superior by some to a guy who takes 500 shots and scores 49.

It's nonsense.

And not to mention having a player who you need to cover up for playing little to no defense has a ripple effect throughout the lineup. Especially when that player is your franchise. I think the Blackhawks suffered from some of the same problems with Bobby Hull being a puck dominant W, although I think the Hawks of that era had a depth problem relative to the Habs and Leafs of the 60's.

 

[Michael Farkas]

It's not necessarily about getting the puck to Ovechkin. It's when/how.

Ovechkin being the finisher on a play...that's a winning proposition from a goal-scoring point of view...goin away...he's one of the best goal scorers in history...

Ovechkin getting the puck, say, in the low NZ and being asked to carry it up his third of the ice...that's, well, not as good.

I don't fault a player for shooting a lot. I don't consider that a negative in and of itself. But Ovechkin's skill set is unique and tailored, not all skill players are created equally. Your mileage may vary...

 

[ImporterExporter]

It's not necessarily about getting the puck to Ovechkin. It's when/how.

Ovechkin being the finisher on a play...that's a winning proposition from a goal-scoring point of view...goin away...he's one of the best goal scorers in history...

Ovechkin getting the puck, say, in the low NZ and being asked to carry it up his third of the ice...that's, well, not as good.

I don't fault a player for shooting a lot. I don't consider that a negative in and of itself. But Ovechkin's skill set is unique and tailored, not all skill players are created equally. Your mileage may vary...

And I never have faulted Ovechkin for shooting a lot. Some people think that's exactly what I'm doing when in fact my whole point is that he's always had a massive advantage in goal scoring races because he has a factual, mathematical advantage over everyone else in the league. But just like in politics and the world today, people spin/ignore that distinctive point into something I'm not saying because they don't have a logical retort.

And the tired argument of "shots are a good thing", "means more possession", etc, don't hold any real weight because the Caps have almost never met expectations having a guy continually blasting shots night in and night out. Having an overwhelmingly singular focus is detrimental to the team.

One, it's easier to score goals if you shoot more than anyone else.

Two, it's easier to score goals and produce offense when you don't pay much attention to the defensive aspects of hockey.

Neither of those are incorrect or hyperbolic statements. Both of those statements apply to Ovechkin.

 

[bobholly39]

Not so in the playoffs when it matters. Washington is only 4 games over .500 in the playoffs and missed the playoff three times during Ovi's career, not winning multiple SCs like Chicago, Pittsburgh, LA. Effectively there are better,more efficient approaches to team success.

Gretzky's teams were not first in SC success. Islanders won just as often. Messier's SC record is better. You do not have videos of Trottier, Messier, Bossy letting the team down defensively in the playoffs like Gretzky did.

Poster A says "shooting a lot is not good it doesn't help the team even if you score a lot, it's a negative"

You - essentially agree and say "Look at Ovechkin since 2006. He - most RS season goals, but his team only scored the most RS goals once. It's a team game and his efforts do not lead to team success"

Me - "Team regular season goals is not equal to team success. Most regular season wins, or most regular season points, is a better measure of team success. Clearly - the results show that Ovechkin shooting and scoring most in the regular season leads to more wins and points than other teams in the regular season"

You - changes the subject (shocker!). Playoffs matter!

Duh. Of course playoffs matter more. So what? A goalie making a save is also important - see, I can change the subject too. But we weren't talking about playoffs - we were talking about shots and goals in the regular season (and apparently - team regular season goal totals, since you brought that up).

Going back to the initial argument. Ovechkin shoots most in regular season, scores most goals and his team has been a top 1-3 team in the NHL since he entered. Seems to show this equals success to me.

Also - Ovechkin has only led the league in shots during the playoffs once. Do you want to guess when that was? Yep, the year his team won the cup, in 2018. I guess shooting the most isn't all that bad.

I'll keep on going. Want to guess who has the most shots in the NHL in the 2019 playoffs? Another one of the 'most overrated players of all time, who clearly only shoots the pucks and doesn't play any defense'. His name is Patrice Bergeron.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Poster A says "shooting a lot is not good it doesn't help the team even if you score a lot, it's a negative"

You - essentially agree and say "Look at Ovechkin since 2006. He - most RS season goals, but his team only scored the most RS goals once. It's a team game and his efforts do not lead to team success"

Me - "Team regular season goals is not equal to team success. Most regular season wins, or most regular season points, is a better measure of team success. Clearly - the results show that Ovechkin shooting and scoring most in the regular season leads to more wins and points than other teams in the regular season"

You - changes the subject (shocker!). Playoffs matter!

Duh. Of course playoffs matter more. So what? A goalie making a save is also important - see, I can change the subject too. But we weren't talking about playoffs - we were talking about shots and goals in the regular season (and apparently - team regular season goal totals, since you brought that up).

Going back to the initial argument. Ovechkin shoots most in regular season, scores most goals and his team has been a top 1-3 team in the NHL since he entered. Seems to show this equals success to me.

Also - Ovechkin has only led the league in shots during the playoffs once. Do you want to guess when that was? Yep, the year his team won the cup, in 2018. I guess shooting the most isn't all that bad.

I'll keep on going. Want to guess who has the most shots in the NHL in the 2019 playoffs? Another one of the 'most overrated players of all time, who clearly only shoots the pucks and doesn't play any defense'. His name is Patrice Bergeron.

Playoffs have always mattered serving as a counterpoint to limited and misleading RS results.

Bergeron plays a complete game. Ovi does not.

To lead the playoffs in offensive stats it helps to play games. Career Bergeron has played more playoff games while lapping Ovi defensively multiple times.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

You and the other regulars who scoff at the notion that having a couple thousand shot advantage in a goal scoring race means you have a much greater chance of winning said goal scoring race are comical.

Nowhere have I ever seen such resistance to context when it comes to goal scoring relative to other team sports where shots or passes are absolutely taken into account when determining value, especially as it pertains to efficiency or impact on team performance.

But no, Ovechkin can just launch rubber at will and nobody examines the context as it pertains to efficiency or the factual statement that all shots are not created equal and having thousands of more shots inherently gives you a greater chance at scoring goals. Just like this past year it literally took Ovechkin more than a 100 shots on net and over 200 total shots (misses/blocks/etc) to score a whopping 1 more goal then the guy who finished in 2nd place and gleam about it being some massive achievement...

It's lunacy. But to be expected by the usual suspects.

One way wingers who have largely ignored a major part (defense) of playing professional hockey while hamstringing their team because they are forced the puck are the most overrated players in the history of this sport.

At least someone like Mike Bossy can say he scored 573 goals in just 752 games and never once led the league in shot totals.

Like what other team sports?

Shots are pretty easy to come by in hoops. Passes are easy to come by in football. No one considers a shot percentage in soccer, because like hockey, you have to be really good just to get shots on goal. So what team sport are you actually comparing to?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Missing the point completely.

Since 2005-06 Washington has lead the NHL in RS goal scoring only one time, while Ovi has lead the league in RS goal scoring eight times.

Given that the sport is a team game, Ovi's efforts including RS shot totals do not generate proportionate team success.

Considering Ovechkin isn't even on the ice for 2/3 of the game, this is a really lame argument. His play has zero effect on the goal production of the other 3 lines.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Playoffs have always mattered serving as a counterpoint to limited and misleading RS results.

Bergeron plays a complete game. Ovi does not.

To lead the playoffs in offensive stats it helps to play games. Career Bergeron has played more playoff games while lapping Ovi defensively multiple times.

So why was Ovie 59th on your list and Bergeron 111?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Considering Ovechkin isn't even on the ice for 2/3 of the game, this is a really lame argument. His play has zero effect on the goal production of the other 3 lines.

Drawing the checking line and impacting opposition deployment influences the scoring of the other Washington lines especially after the Capitals PP.

 

[Canadiens1958]

So why was Ovie 59th on your list and Bergeron 111?

Relative rank by position. Ovi at LW had little competition compared to Bergeron at center.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Drawing the checking line and impacting opposition deployment influences the scoring of the other Washington lines especially after the Capitals PP.

That would seem a positive, not a negative.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Relative rank by position. Ovi at LW had little competition compared to Bergeron at center.

Not ranking by position.

Ranking by best players.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Not ranking by position.

Ranking by best players.

Top player = proximity to the top of his position.

 

[Canadiens1958]

That would seem a positive, not a negative.

Your point was zero impact though. Now it's a positive.

 

[TheEye]

You do not have videos of Trottier, Messier, Bossy letting the team down defensively in the playoffs like Gretzky did.

We certainly have video of Orr letting down his team defensively in the playoffs and he's your number one ranking:

 

[ImporterExporter]

Like what other team sports?

Shots are pretty easy to come by in hoops. Passes are easy to come by in football. No one considers a shot percentage in soccer, because like hockey, you have to be really good just to get shots on goal. So what team sport are you actually comparing to?

You're really going to go there?

Ok, I'll play.

The league is averaging more shots per game, per team, right now then any time since 1985-86. And we're only talking about SHOTS ON GOAL.

That doesn't even account for shots blocked and missed cleany which makes that number increase greatly.

Shooting the puck isn't hard. Any asshole can do it. Getting it on net certainly merits skill but again, we're not talking incredibly rare instances.

And not considering shot % in soccer, in any capacity, is also asinine. You can easily watch an EPL match and track those attempts and still decipher the shot quality and make sound efficiency ratio's.

And as I said, shooting a great deal more than anyone else gives you an inherent advantage in tracking goals scored. Assuming one considers shot quality of course.

 

[Canadiens1958]

You're really going to go there?

Ok, I'll play.

The league is averaging more shots per game, per team, right now then any time since 1985-86. And we're only talking about SHOTS ON GOAL.

That doesn't even account for shots blocked and missed cleany which makes that number increase greatly.

Shooting the puck isn't hard. Any ******* can do it. Getting it on net certainly merits skill but again, we're not talking incredibly rare instances.

And not considering shot % in soccer, in any capacity, is also asinine. You can easily watch an EPL match and track those attempts and still decipher the shot quality and make sound efficiency ratio's.

And as I said, shooting a great deal more than anyone else gives you an inherent advantage in tracking goals scored. Assuming one considers shot quality of course.

Soccer does not have unlimited substitutions and east/west player movement. Also no favourite shooting spot.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Soccer does not have unlimited substitutions and east/west player movement. Also no favourite shooting spot.

Of course not, context would need to be applied like anything else.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

You're really going to go there?

Ok, I'll play.

The league is averaging more shots per game, per team, right now then any time since 1985-86. And we're only talking about SHOTS ON GOAL.

That doesn't even account for shots blocked and missed cleany which makes that number increase greatly.

Shooting the puck isn't hard. Any ******* can do it. Getting it on net certainly merits skill but again, we're not talking incredibly rare instances.

And not considering shot % in soccer, in any capacity, is also asinine. You can easily watch an EPL match and track those attempts and still decipher the shot quality and make sound efficiency ratio's.

And as I said, shooting a great deal more than anyone else gives you an inherent advantage in tracking goals scored. Assuming one considers shot quality of course.

So, shouldn't the league be averaging more goals per game, per team, than at any time since 1985-86? But its not.

What are you talking about? In an NHL game? I disagree.

There are games in the EPL (or recent Champions League games) where teams do not record a shot on goal. Are they terrible soccer players or just terribly stupid. Can't score if you don't shoot on goal.

 

[wetcoast]

Well, both Bossy and Ovechkin are presently tied with 553 career RS assists. Bossy in 752 games, Ovi in 1084 games.

Setting aside shot counting, this points to a significant difference in team puck distribution offensively.

Does it really though with scoring being so much higher in the 80's?

There are arguments to be made that Bossy might be the better playmaker than Ovi, or more well rounded, but strictly looking at counting stats isn't the best way to make one.

Scoring in the 80's was also more fluid up and down the lineup while post lockout scoring has become more concentrated in the top 6 and usually the #1 Dman PP QB

More to the point. Washington is running two different offences. One with Ovi, another without.

Don't most teams do this post lockout with a superstar player?

Also Washington can role out 2 top 6 lines that are quite balanced but on the PP Ovi's usage is extremely high that might make it seem like they are running 2 offenses.

Looking at the team at ES would be more indicative wouldn't it?

 

[wetcoast]

Not so in the playoffs when it matters. Washington is only 4 games over .500 in the playoffs and missed the playoff three times during Ovi's career, not winning multiple SCs like Chicago, Pittsburgh, LA. Effectively there are better,more efficient approaches to team success.

Gretzky's teams were not first in SC success. Islanders won just as often. Messier's SC record is better. You do not have videos of Trottier, Messier, Bossy letting the team down defensively in the playoffs like Gretzky did.

This is yet just another good example of teams winning SC's not individual players, especially in a 21-31 team league. does it?

Greztky is by far the best playoff career performer of all the players you list here.

Samuel Pahlsson (and hundreds more players) was a far better defensive player than Gretzky in the playoffs but it doesn't men anything in the overall scheme of things.

 

[wetcoast]

Relative rank by position. Ovi at LW had little competition compared to Bergeron at center.

Not ranking by position.

Ranking by best players.

Glad you hit that beachball straight over home plate out of the park.

 

[Staniowski]

What did Espo do in Chicago again?

Quite a lot actually.

He was the 4th best even-strength scorer in the NHL over his 3 full seasons on the Blackhawks, ahead of Howe, Beliveau, Mahovlich, etc.

Any criticism of Esposito's time in Chicago should be directed primarily at the coach and management for not utilizing him optimally and for trading him in one of the monumental blunders in sports history.