Value of: Vladislav Gavrikov to the Toronto Maple Leafs (TOR/CBJ) - Based on Friedman...

[Viqsi]

Nobody’s cherry picking anything

Don't. Just don't. You chose to bump this thread during a disaster game for the Jackets, and started your post with the following:

If he had one game like he’s having tonight

That is cherrypicking. That's the textbook definition of cherrypicking - it's singling out an unsual situation and acting like it's the norm. Stop trying to pretend it's anything but.

 

[Cotton]

Just last year we got Boqvist and Bean. The book on both of those guys, like Sandin, is that they're not physical and don't have great footspeed, but are highly cerebral puck movers. We also just used a top-15 pick on Denton Mateychuk, who also fits that mold.

Gavrikov has by far the most defensive zone starts of any defenseman on our team, we don't have any other lefties who can take on those duties. Sandin is a really good player (and trade chip), but he's not that guy.

He does alright

 

[BB88]

Why would he not?

Are #4 defensive defenseman on expiring contracts not of similar value?

What did Chiarot return?

& guess who’s a lot better than Chiarot?

 

[Arthur Morgan]

What did Chiarot return?

& guess who’s a lot better than Chiarot?

just because one team paid too much doesnt mean every team will pay something like that

 

[The Podium]

What did Chiarot return?

& guess who’s a lot better than Chiarot?

And guess who is regretting that trade?

 

[BB88]

just because one team paid too much doesnt mean every team will pay something like that

Savard got a 1st the year before, Nick Foligno got a 1st from you the year before

27y 6’3 top4 Dman is easy 1st round pick at the deadline

And guess who is regretting that trade?

& yet Gm’s do those trades every year.

Gavrikov is/was superior player vs Chiarot

 

[Intangir]

Savard got a 1st the year before, Nick Foligno got a 1st from you the year before

27y 6’3 top4 Dman is easy 1st round pick at the deadline



& yet Gm’s do those trades every year.

Gavrikov is/was superior player vs Chiarot

As much as I agree with what you've said, there is more to take into consideration regarding Chiarot's value at the time of the trade than what you've entailed.

Simply put, yes, Gavrikov is indeed a better defenseman than Chiarot. He is smoother with the puck, passes the puck better, has better hockey sense, doesn't take as many penalties, and owns a more well-rounded defensive game.

That said, Chiarot is also better than Gavrikov in certain areas of the game. Areas that do not have the prevalence today that they did in the past, but areas of strength that are still perceived as having value when adding to a contending team.

And by that I mean toughness and intangibles. Gavrikov does not fight, Chiarot does. For many, it might seem like a stupid reason to overvalue Chiarot, but for GMs/coaches and hockey players in general, a big defenseman that skates well, defends well, AND will go through thick and thin to defend his teammates has high inherent value. You win playoff series with guys like those helping and insulating your more skilled players.

Then you add to that the fact that just a season prior to being traded Chiarot was part of a mean foursome of defencemen (with Weber, Petry and Edmunson) that headed Montreal's defense and bullied opposing forwards with their toughness (and yeah, crosschecks) until they were undone by a superior opponent in the Stanley Cup finals.

That elevated Chiarot's value through the league, as he had proven to be quite effective even in high-pressure situations, something that Gavrikov hasn't yet had the chance to accomplish through no fault of his particularly.

So yeah, in a vacuum Gavrikov, the better defender, should have simply more value than Chiarot. But when you add in said context, things get murky and much more unclear.

In the end, Gavrikov should still go for a better return for Columbus this year than what Chiarot brought Montreal last year, but we should reserve judgment until we are closer to the deadline and have a better idea of the interest surrounding him around the league.

 

[BB88]

As much as I agree with what you've said, there is more to take into consideration regarding Chiarot's value at the time of the trade than what you've entailed.

Simply put, yes, Gavrikov is indeed a better defenseman than Chiarot. He is smoother with the puck, passes the puck better, has better hockey sense, doesn't take as many penalties, and owns a more well-rounded defensive game.

That said, Chiarot is also better than Gavrikov in certain areas of the game. Areas that do not have the prevalence today that they did in the past, but areas of strength that are still perceived as having value when adding to a contending team.

And by that I mean toughness and intangibles. Gavrikov does not fight, Chiarot does. For many, it might seem like a stupid reason to overvalue Chiarot, but for GMs/coaches and hockey players in general, a big defenseman that skates well, defends well, AND will go through thick and thin to defend his teammates has high inherent value. You win playoff series with guys like those helping and insulating your more skilled players.

Then you add to that the fact that just a season prior to being traded Chiarot was part of a mean foursome of defencemen (with Weber, Petry and Edmunson) that headed Montreal's defense and bullied opposing forwards with their toughness (and yeah, crosschecks) until they were undone by a superior opponent in the Stanley Cup finals.

That elevated Chiarot's value through the league, as he had proven to be quite effective even in high-pressure situations, something that Gavrikov hasn't yet had the chance to accomplish through no fault of his particularly.

So yeah, in a vacuum Gavrikov, the better defender, should have simply more value than Chiarot. But when you add in said context, things get murky and much more unclear.

In the end, Gavrikov should still go for a better return for Columbus this year than what Chiarot brought Montreal last year, but we should reserve judgment until we are closer to the deadline and have a better idea of the interest surrounding him around the league.

He can be physical yet rest of his game ….s.
Teams also want players they can trust and depth is always incredible valuable in deep playoff runs.

Gavrikov is 6’3 215lbs so it’s not like teams would be adding a Dman not build for playoffs.

Foligno returned a 1st, Savard returned a 1st, Chiarot returned a 1st.
Gavrikov is better than any one of them at the time of trade.

Come trade deadline Gavrikov if on the market is at the top of trade list(Dmen) and will return an easy 1st from a team trying to win the Cup

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Gavrikov as a player might be a good fit for Toronto, but Toronto isn't a good fit for a Gavrikov trade.

The assets that the Leafs have (namely Sandin) don't suit CBJ's needs, and using those assets on Gavrikov would make it harder for the Leafs to address their need for depth scoring.

Even if they have interest, it's hard to see Columbus not getting a package that suits their needs better (and carries more value) from a team like the Kings or Oilers.

Maybe. Does a 1st round pick suit CBJ's needs?

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

He can be physical yet rest of his game ….s.
Teams also want players they can trust and depth is always incredible valuable in deep playoff runs.

Gavrikov is 6’3 215lbs so it’s not like teams would be adding a Dman not build for playoffs.

Foligno returned a 1st, Savard returned a 1st, Chiarot returned a 1st.
Gavrikov is better than any one of them at the time of trade.

Come trade deadline Gavrikov if on the market is at the top of trade list(Dmen) and will return an easy 1st from a team trying to win the Cup

At the TOP of the D men trade list?

Little early to say that don't you think?

 

[Viqsi]

Maybe. Does a 1st round pick suit CBJ's needs?

That's the baseline ask, yes. Any talk of anything above and beyond a 1st is In Case Of Bidding War.

 

[thusk]

Savard got a 1st the year before, Nick Foligno got a 1st from you the year before

27y 6’3 top4 Dman is easy 1st round pick at the deadline



& yet Gm’s do those trades every year.

Gavrikov is/was superior player vs Chiarot

Savard foligno was in a pretty bad deadline market... so player available lidt was really thin and price raise drastically

Chiarot yewr before reach the stanley cup final by playing a major impact on that run. That run raise dratically his value and made him an huge overrated player...

Always depend of wich player is available at trade deadline... if exemple pittaburgh is out of playoff and Dumoulin is available, he become the #1 shutdown d target ... Nyi with mayfield, etc...

 

[613Leafer]

Leafs are playing great right now, including the defence. I forget the exact stat, but it's something like since Rielly got injured the Leafs have the lowest GAA (or goals against / 60) in the league.

In saying that, the playoffs are played and reffed differently. Montreal went on a big unexpected run, and that was in large part to their big blueline with guys like Edmundson, Chiarot, Weber, etc all of a sudden being much more effect than they'd been in the regular season. Colorado's blueline other than Makar was quite big as well, and TB has obviously had a monster blueline for years and been very successful.

So notwithstanding my first comment that the Leafs appear to be a fantastic defensive team right now, I do think that when push comes to show in the playoffs, especially with Muzzin likely out for the season, they're going to want a guy who can play legit top 4 minutes who has a bit more size/snarl to his game. None of Sandin, Liljegren, Brodie, or Rielly are going to physically protect the front of the net effectively.

I don't know if Gavrikov is the answer (he's unfortunately a LHD for example), but I certainly understand the mentality behind trying to acquire a guy like that, even if the blueline seems fine right now.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Leafs are playing great right now, including the defence. I forget the exact stat, but it's something like since Rielly got injured the Leafs have the lowest GAA (or goals against / 60) in the league.

In saying that, the playoffs are played and reffed differently. Montreal went on a big unexpected run, and that was in large part to their big blueline with guys like Edmundson, Chiarot, Weber, etc all of a sudden being much more effect than they'd been in the regular season. Colorado's blueline other than Makar was quite big as well, and TB has obviously had a monster blueline for years and been very successful.

So notwithstanding my first comment that the Leafs appear to be a fantastic defensive team right now, I do think that when push comes to show in the playoffs, especially with Muzzin likely out for the season, they're going to want a guy who can play legit top 4 minutes who has a bit more size/snarl to his game. None of Sandin, Liljegren, Brodie, or Rielly are going to physically protect the front of the net effectively.

I don't know if Gavrikov is the answer (he's unfortunately a LHD for example), but I certainly understand the mentality behind trying to acquire a guy like that, even if the blueline seems fine right now.

I think what this run should be proving to people is that you can never have to much defensive depth, so while the most significant move should be up front I do want another d man or 2

 

[ColumbusTrill]

If he had one game like he’s having tonight, which is becoming the norm with him btw, he’d be run out of Toronto faster than anyone has ever been. People think Holl is picked on? He’d be the happiest player in town if the Leafs acquired Gavrikov.

It’s pretty obvious he’s a support player. Nobody is sending Columbus anything of real value in return. Not the way he’s playing this year. They’re obviously asking way too much of him right now.

Like I’ve said, the ONLY reason he was looked at as a trade target this year that might get them a 1st, was because he showed some form of a two way game last year. If you think he’s as good as Savard or Chiarot when they were traded, you’re obviously not watching him play. The guy has no game whatsoever in 2 of the 3 zones, and his play in his own zone this year makes Holl look like a solid player.

People really need to watch him play. We’re almost 1/3rd into the season and he’s been atrocious.

He was actually fine last night. Probably more impressive in that beatdown he still had a 79% xG%

 

[BB88]

Savard foligno was in a pretty bad deadline market... so player available lidt was really thin and price raise drastically

Chiarot yewr before reach the stanley cup final by playing a major impact on that run. That run raise dratically his value and made him an huge overrated player...

Always depend of wich player is available at trade deadline... if exemple pittaburgh is out of playoff and Dumoulin is available, he become the #1 shutdown d target ... Nyi with mayfield, etc...

Good luck getting him for less

At the TOP of the D men trade list?

Little early to say that don't you think?

27y 6’3 top4.

Yeah he will attract lot of competition

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Good luck getting him for less


27y 6’3 top4.

Yeah he will attract lot of competition

I have no doubt about that but you said the TOP guy.

I think there is a guy in Arizona that disagrees

 

[Viqsi]

I have no doubt about that but you said the TOP guy.

I think there is a guy in Arizona that disagrees

Chychrun isn't a deadline rental, but that's arguably splitting hairs.

 

[Petes2424]

Don't. Just don't. You chose to bump this thread during a disaster game for the Jackets, and started your post with the following:

That is cherrypicking. That's the textbook definition of cherrypicking - it's singling out an unsual situation and acting like it's the norm. Stop trying to pretend it's anything but.

I chose to RESPOND to a response to me. Big difference.

 

[Viqsi]

I chose to RESPOND to a response to me. Big difference.

Hon, your response started with a reference to that game. You don't get to pretend that the timing didn't matter. You explicitly used it.

Take the L and move on. We did so last night with that game. You can too.

 

[Petes2424]

Hon, your response started with a reference to that game. You don't get to pretend that the timing didn't matter. You explicitly used it.

Take the L and move on. We did so last night with that game. You can too.

You mean the game that was on? Look, you can disagree all you want. That’s the great thing here. We will all find out soon enough.

 

[sxvnert]

...'s comments.

Fan 590 JD Butkis podcast (Dec 1st)

Elliotte Friedman (Guest / Friend of the show) said that TOR are still interested in bolstering their defense. That they were looking for and defensive defenseman with a bit of edge. He gave the example "like Gabrikov".

In no way am I saying that this is a solid rumour. I'm just curious what the price might be. Is he untouchable? What if Toronto offered Sandin and a 1st?

Is CBJ sellin' what Dubas hopes to be buyin'?

Leafs need a right handed D. an upgrade to Holl.

Reilly Brodie
Gio (RD)
Sandin Lily

Luke Schenn is probably a more desirable target.

 

[Viqsi]

You mean the game that was on? Look, you can disagree all you want. That’s the great thing here. We will all find out soon enough.

I can live with folks disagreeing so long as they're not trying to regularly and persistently push ripoffs and undercuts when the preponderance of the evidence demonstrates that they are ripoffs and undercuts.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Leafs need a right handed D. an upgrade to Holl.

Reilly Brodie
Gio (RD)
Sandin Lily

Luke Schenn is probably a more desirable target.

I'd like to see them get a partner for Reilly then you can run

Reilly trade

Giordano Brodie

Sandin Lilly

 

[thusk]

Good luck getting him for less


27y 6’3 top4.

Yeah he will attract lot of competition

Depend of what market look like

Maybe he will get something similar to savard trade but maybe it will look like manson trade

And its not because you like him and see him really high than NHL GM will consider Gavrikov as high.