Vladimir Sobotka signs with Omsk (KHL)

[LGB51]

And I don't think you know how a forum works, so nah I won't stop.

This is for you:

Don't want Sobotka back.

And again I agree with this, glad ties were cut now, he is gonna want too much money for the skill level he provides. Sorry just how I feel, 3 million dollars for a 4th line player (3rd line sub for injuries) for roughly 60 games just isn't a good deal. God only knows what he expects to make when (or if) he ever reaches FA, but I highly doubt The Blues would be able to afford it.

 

[CaseyJones]

This:

So basically he's upset that we signed more talented players and doesn't want to go to another team where Hitchcock isn't the coach because he knows he'll be relegated to the bottom 6 there since he isn't talented enough. Got it.

If Sobotka genuinely cared about the Blues and winning, then he would be stoked about us getting better players. Him being sore about possibly losing playing time tells me that he knows he can't compete with our top forwards. Where's the gumption now? If he has as much drive as Panger told us he does, then why doesn't he prove everyone wrong and win a second / third line spot during training camp? Seems to me like the praise we heaped on him went to his head and now he thinks he can be a second liner. I don't want a selfish person like that dragging my team down clogging up spots for better players. Sobotka didn't have enough buy-in. I'll gladly take Ott over him any day. I don't give a crap what kind of numbers you throw at me, at least Ott cares about our team. He's not crying about wanting more playing time to push superior players down the lineup. Ott will also have our back when things get hairy and go to bat for us. I'd much rather have a guy that will suck up a bit of his pride and take one on the chin for the team than a little guy with big dreams and an ego to match. No wonder Sobe went through so many agents, I wouldn't want to represent him either.

 

[bleedblue1223]

So people think Sobotka is overrated and the CPR line was overrated, what do you guys think about Pietrangelo? He's the most overrated player on the team (I do like Pietrangelo but I don't put him on the Doughty, Karlsson, Subban level. He's actually regressed a little bit from a couple seasons ago.)

Massive difference between a Norris contender with massive expectations and Sobotka/CPR. Sobotka does all the little things, but at the end of the day, he just doesn't bring the production. The CPR line did one thing, hit, and Blues fans are still pissed that they aren't together.

 

[Celtic Note]

I'll go on record.

I wasn't being serious. It was in response to a post I viewed as hypocritical. Anyway, I am dropping it.

 

[Vladys Gumption]

So people think Sobotka is overrated and the CPR line was overrated, what do you guys think about Pietrangelo? He's the most overrated player on the team (I do like Pietrangelo but I don't put him on the Doughty, Karlsson, Subban level. He's actually regressed a little bit from a couple seasons ago.)

He's much, much better than Karlsson and Subban defensively. Neither on of those guys should be considered on the Doughty level. Pietrangelo can at least make a case based on his all around game.

 

[Dbrownss]

Imo petro lacks an accurate slapper, and putting the body to somebody. As I watched doughty, he would be much more physical then he body would allow.

Those are the 2 things I feel alex lacks, both can be learned.

 

[Turk Sanderson]

I don't want him back either. What makes him effective as a player, is his all out hard hitting style. Unfortunately, it's also what gets him on the I.R. list. Without a long term deal, I don't think that he risks his health, and plays that way. I think that he probably holds back, knowing that his next big hit might be his last big hit. Army was probably thinking that too, in not giving him another $300,000k. The fact is that he quit on his team, when it came time to meet the RFA portion of the deal. He didn't want to be here beyond next year...he wants to be a UFA, ASAP. His teammates are probably unhappy with him as well. They were counting on him to be part of their SC journey. I can't see some kind of a kum-by-ya moment where he shows up at the playoffs and rejoins the Blues. Those players will have gone through the battle to get to that point, and won't want some cherry-picker coming in and stealing minutes from someone who has been part of the battle all along. I think that once the arbitrator sets his value, he's probably dealt somewhere else.

 

[BlueDream]

Sobotka is a solid player. But he really took a beating this past season. I question his durability and am kind of glad we don't have to worry about that now.

But I don't understand bringing up Pietrangelo. Yes I do think he's a bit overrated until he can start dominating in the playoffs, but he's still one of the top players in this league. You have to be to make team Canada.

Sobotka is obviously not near Pietrangelo's caliber.

 

[BrokenFace]

Um, the Blues had 7 forwards get injured. SEVEN. Find me another team in the league that you think can replace that. Nobody is going to have 7 NHL players on their damn AHL team, get real with that. Our depth IS good. I mean, it's one thing to account for injuries but you just can't do anything about losing half your forward lineup. Anyone would have been screwed.

I don't want Sobotka back, sorry if you don't like it but I don't care.

Wasn't trying to call you out personally. I've never felt Sobotka was a vital part of the team. He was a great guy to have on a team that lacked center depth, which we, hopefully, solved this off season. I'm just blown away by all the people who are glad he's gone all of a sudden, because if he had signed a 1-year 3 million dollar contract, these same people would be saying that they're happy he's back and would be pointing to all of his positive qualities.

I'm just not at all impressed by fans changing their entire opinion of a player's ability the moment he's not on their team anymore. Felt like calling it out for once. I believe the Blues will be better next year without him, but that doesn't discredit what he's able to do on the ice.

 

[Tryblot]

In my saying of Pietrangelo is overrated, I was referring to the people who think he is a top 5 D, I do believe he is a top 10 D but not top 5. He just doesn't take the game over like some of the other defenseman. Also when I said he has regressed, the majority of people a few years ago would say he was top 5, and I just don't see it anymore. He had an absolutely incredible first couple of seasons, but I just don't see him winning a Norris in his career as I used to believe.

 

[Multimoodia]

In my saying of Pietrangelo is overrated, I was referring to the people who think he is a top 5 D, I do believe he is a top 10 D but not top 5. He just doesn't take the game over like some of the other defenseman. Also when I said he has regressed, the majority of people a few years ago would say he was top 5, and I just don't see it anymore. He had an absolutely incredible first couple of seasons, but I just don't see him winning a Norris in his career as I used to believe.

Eh, depending upon the season he's pretty close to top 5. He backslid a bit this year (I'm not counting the lockout year pro or con because Berglund led the team in scoring and frankly that means the year is too goofy to count) but hopefully that forces him to re-dedicate himself.
By advance metrics (if you believe in them) he still is at or near the top 5 defensemen in most measurable categories even on a down year.

The hope is that he learns he can/needs to play a bit more physical (Bouwmeester level, nothing ridiculous) and that he looks more like the late 2014 season/playoff version that was the dominating #1 defenseman we expected to see.


It just so happens that this division has 2-3 defensemen who are either in or around the top 5 with the entire conference adding another 1-2.

 

[Majorityof1]

In my saying of Pietrangelo is overrated, I was referring to the people who think he is a top 5 D, I do believe he is a top 10 D but not top 5. He just doesn't take the game over like some of the other defenseman. Also when I said he has regressed, the majority of people a few years ago would say he was top 5, and I just don't see it anymore. He had an absolutely incredible first couple of seasons, but I just don't see him winning a Norris in his career as I used to believe.

According to advanced stats in what many consider a down year for Petro, he was the number 1 defenseman in goals vs. threshold (GVT) and tied for first in defensive goals vs. Threshhold (DGVT). So while he doesn't seem to step his game up in the playoffs, a valid case can be made for him as top 5 in the regular season, even number 1. Defensively, he is definitely not lacking in the playoffs either. I wish he was more physical but the Blues as a unit are lacking during this time frame. Given the a stats which attempt to eliminate teammate bias, Petro is definitely one of the 5 best D-men in the league.

So we can quibble about regular season vs. playoffs and whether Petro is top 5 vs top 10 all you want. The point is, that the stats show he is not that much over-rated and may very well be underrated.

 

[Yoko Ono*]

He's the best Dman on one of the best defensive teams in the league and he's making only 6.5M. He's been a 2nd team All Star twice, and he's only been a full time NHLer for 4 seasons. He played in every game for the Canadian Olympic team. Advanced statistics love him, traditional statistics love him, and he's one of the best Dmen in the entire NHL. I just don't understand why this fanbase can't have a superstar Dman without dumping on him all the time. It was the absolute exact same when we had Pronger and MaCinnis. In retrospect, people always talk about how much they loved each of them and were sad to see them go, but they were chewed up and spit out by the average fan in St. Louis. Why can't we just appreciate having an amazing player on our team? Okay, so he's not as good as Doughty(true), Karlsson(false), Subban(true), but who gives a flying ****? He's an amazing player that we have under contract for the next 6 years at a very reasonable cap hit. He's an advanced stats darling, he puts up the traditional stats, and he's not even close to being overpaid. How is he overrated? People say he's a top 5-10 Dman in the NHL, which is 100% true. The players that you could make a case are as good as Pietrangelo or better: Weber, Subban, Doughty, Karlsson, McDonaugh, Keith, OEL, Hedman. That's it. Those are the only guys that have a legitimate claim to being better than Petro. So if all of those guys are better than Petro(they're not), he's the 9th best Dman in the NHL. How is he overrated?

EDIT: Also, he hasn't regressed at all and the statistics show that as does the eye test.

Don't lump me in I was in awe of Pronger right after the Shanahan deal I was the "only" one who never booed him his first season. MacInnis is a god here I can't remember anyone ever ripping him. As far as top 5 d Pie doesn't even make the Blues all time list much less NHL current.

Pronger, Stevens ,Mac, Ramage and Barc are all ahead of him.

 

[Hockey Monkey]

Don't lump me in I was in awe of Pronger right after the Shanahan deal I was the "only" one who never booed him his first season. MacInnis is a god here I can't remember anyone ever ripping him. As far as top 5 d Pie doesn't even make the Blues all time list much less NHL current.

Pronger, Stevens ,Mac, Ramage and Barc are all ahead of him.

hahaahah Stevens played in STL for one year. ALL TIME GREAT

Petro is fantastic and we're lucky to have him (especially at his cap hit) and my god the internet says some ridiculous things sometimes. Petro isn't flashy but he's pretty close to being the best in the game right now at the things that really matter (ie, not BIG HITZ and BIG SLAP SHOTZ)

 

[Rizzo90]

hahaahah Stevens played in STL for one year. ALL TIME GREAT

Petro is fantastic and we're lucky to have him (especially at his cap hit) and my god the Yoko Ono says some ridiculous things sometimes. Petro isn't flashy but he's pretty close to being the best in the game right now at the things that really matter (ie, not BIG HITZ and BIG SLAP SHOTZ)

Yoko could have his own cable show called "On the Contrary".... although a little pepper with your salt makes life interesting

 

[Yoko Ono*]

hahaahah Stevens played in STL for one year. ALL TIME GREAT

Petro is fantastic and we're lucky to have him (especially at his cap hit) and my god the internet says some ridiculous things sometimes. Petro isn't flashy but he's pretty close to being the best in the game right now at the things that really matter (ie, not BIG HITZ and BIG SLAP SHOTZ)

Not even same class as Doughty, Weber, Chara, Subban, or McDonagh. All these players dictate the play I have yet to see Petro do the same. He is a power play specialist at best and is an embarrassment in his own zone.

 

[Majorityof1]

Not even same class as Doughty, Weber, Chara, Subban, or McDonagh. All these players dictate the play I have yet to see Petro do the same. He is a power play specialist at best and is an embarrassment in his own zone.

You just lost your own argument by going for hyperbole. You just look foolish saying the bolded. In no way is Petro an embarrassment anywhere on the ice, much less his own zone. As I stated, Petro was tied for first among defenseman in DGVT which directly measures how valuable a player is defensively. So if he was better than everyone according to the stat and many others, everyone would also be an embarrassment. There not a single quantifiable argument you can make to say that Petro is an embarrassment, besides talking out of your ass.

 

[Yoko Ono*]

You just lost your own argument by going for hyperbole. You just look foolish saying the bolded. In no way is Petro an embarrassment anywhere on the ice, much less his own zone. As I stated, Petro was tied for first among defenseman in DGVT which directly measures how valuable a player is defensively. So if he was better than everyone according to the stat and many others, everyone would also be an embarrassment. There not a single quantifiable argument you can make to say that Petro is an embarrassment, besides talking out of your ass.

Don't care about stats he makes me cringe when watching him play in the d zone just my opinion. Once again don't care about your stats. Evidence posted here.

In today’s sabermetrics and hockey post, I am looking at the defensive portion of Tom Awad’s goals versus threshold system. Unlike the offensive portion and the goalies portion, this part is much more likely to be inaccurate. Defence is far harder to show statistically and as a result this part of the system is quite likely to miss significant defensive achievements and reward less impressive ones.

 

[Majorityof1]

Don't care about stats he makes me cringe when watching him play in the d zone just my opinion. Once again don't care about your stats. Evidence posted here.

In today’s Sabremetrics and hockey post, I am looking at the defensive portion of Tom Awad’s goals versus threshold system. Unlike the offensive portion and the goalies portion, this part is much more likely to be inaccurate. Defence is far harder to show statistically and as a result this part of the system is quite likely to miss significant defensive achievements and reward less impressive ones.

You cringe because you don't like him for whatever reason, not because he is bad. Your opinion vs. the opinion of every sportswriter, scout and GM who would put him as a clear top pairing defenseman on any team in the league. He was in the fringes of Norris discussion the past 2 years. Opposing teams commentators always refer to him as on of the best Dmen in the league. So your "source" is clearly more flawed than mine. While DGVT may not be perfect, it is a much closer measure than the biased eye test. There a vast difference between best in the league and embarrassment, and your bias is a much more likely the cause of the difference than any flaw in the stats.

 

[Hockey Monkey]

Once again don't care about your stats. Evidence posted here.

You didn't post any evidence.

Actual evidence suggests that he's one of the best in the world at his own zone. The things that matter to winning hockey games: not turning the puck over, good outlet passes, positioning and shutting down passes, keeping shots to the outside...he absolutely excels at.

To that end, the weakest part of his game is his play at the point, which makes your suggestion that he's a "power play specialist" kind of amusing.

 

[medkit]

Petro had a great year. He didn't backslide. He was a Norris contender for most of the year. And I thought he outplayed Keith in our series with Chicago. What the heck team are you guys watching?

 

[gumption]

Petro had a great year. He didn't backslide. He was a Norris contender for most of the year. And I thought he outplayed Keith in our series with Chicago. What the heck team are you guys watching?

i thought he played just fine this year. the stats will always be different every year depending on how well petro works with the players around him. don't see any regression here.

 

[Celtic Note]

Mod Note: This is a thread about Sobotka. If you want to continue the Petro discussion take it to the appropriate thread.

 

[dtrain]

Massive difference between a Norris contender with massive expectations and Sobotka/CPR. Sobotka does all the little things, but at the end of the day, he just doesn't bring the production. The CPR line did one thing, hit, and Blues fans are still pissed that they aren't together.

I think that's selling them short.

They possessed the puck and controlled play (usually in the offensive zone) hit and just caused chaos for the opposing team. That's what I want from a 4th line.

They were cheap and effective.

Perfect!

 

[bleedblue1223]

Well their game was tailor-made for that series. Their play wasn't going to be sustainable over an entire season. Very similarly, Lapierre won't replicate next season what he did against Chicago. A lot of good 4th liners really elevate their games in the playoffs because games are tighter and there is a bigger emphasis of physical play. The CPR line is extremely overrated when people are still upset that they aren't together.