Vancouver Realtor facing criminal charges and lifetime ban from Beer League hockey for kicking an opponent's face with his skates

[Baberham Lincoln]

Just to confirm, I heard that this was the kicker's first game back from a previous suspension. Also, I heard the kicker, was suspended once for breaking another person's leg, and was a known A-hole that did questionable shit all the time.

I don’t know if first game back but he has been suspended by the league before for violent action. Breaking legs and highsticking in the head and neck per my friends

 

[Yukon Joe]

I don’t know if first game back but he has been suspended by the league before for violent action. Breaking legs and highsticking in the head and neck per my friends

So just one more point. If accepting what your friends are saying is true, it doesn't matter if this guy has a bad history in determining whether the guy committed assault or not. In fact any evidence of bad character is specifically prohibited except in extremely limited circumstances (google "similar fact evidence" if curious).

So, the guys prior bad acts don't figure into whether he is guilty or not.

But once someone is found guilty, then all that prior history is 100% relevant when it comes to sentencing. A first time offender gets a much lighter sentence than a repeat offender.

(and again, this is looking only at criminal courts, not how refs might call a game)

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Just to confirm, I heard that this was the kicker's first game back from a previous suspension. Also, I heard the kicker, was suspended once for breaking another person's leg, and was a known A-hole that did questionable shit all the time.

I don’t know if first game back but he has been suspended by the league before for violent action. Breaking legs and highsticking in the head and neck per my friends

Good, Guy should be in jail then after this. Can't believe some people are trying to defend him. How EMBARRASSING.

 

[DaaaaB's]

I don’t know if first game back but he has been suspended by the league before for violent action. Breaking legs and highsticking in the head and neck per my friends

If that's all true and I'm not saying it's not, then why is this guy even allowed to play in rec leagues?

 

[Primary Assist]

If that's all true and I'm not saying it's not, then why is this guy even allowed to play in rec leagues?

Apparently the last 3 league commissioners who denied his application were all sent to the ER with mysterious skate wound to the face injuries

 

[Nogatco Rd]

So has he been charged with a crime or no?

Edit: from a cursory google search it appears that the incident is “under investigation” after video was submitted to police.

If he has not been charged or formally accused of a crime, it seems to me that the assertion he is “facing criminal charges” in the thread title is misleading, and potentially libelous.

 

[Neutrinos]

You asked if someone has called the police for someone punching an opponent in the face. Punching happens regularly in professional hockey and rarely in recreational hockey.

I told you that leagues that I’ve been in do, in fact, call police if punches are thrown. Since you seem to think it’s an acceptable thing in all adult rec leagues.

You have to be as much of a scum bag as the guy who kicked someone in the head with a skate to try to rationalize how that is somehow normal or expected in an adult league game.

Instead of you continuing to move the goalposts, I'll just tell you you're correct so you can have something to be proud of yourself for.

Every adult league game should just be a melee of fists and skates so people can live out their fantasy of playing hockey like they see on the TV.

I would've thought it'd be a rather simple task to complete, however, you seem to be having great difficulty quoting the part of my comment where I said punching an opponent in the face was acceptable in adult rec. leagues, or quoting the part of my comment where I moved the goalposts

 

[Kevinsane]

Okay, so lawyer/rec hockey player with nothing better to do on a Sunday night chiming in. I'm going to focus in almost entirely on the interplay between the Criminal law and hockey (and then entirely Canadian criminal law, though a lot of the general principles apply in the US).

There's a lot of partially correct information out here, but partially incorrect. When you play hockey you are absolutely consenting to a certain level of physical contact. Consent is a defence to a charge of assault - it's right there in the definition of assault - it's the intentional application of force without the consent of the other person.

Criminal Code

Federal laws of Canada

laws-lois.justice.gc.ca

But so what exactly are you consenting to when you play hockey? Generally speaking incidental body contact, depending on your league even intentional body checking. Almost all physical contact in hockey is easily covered by consent.

But guess what - there's not a hockey league anywhere - not pro, not amateur, not rec - that allows fighting. Even though the NHL tacitly allows it, it's still against the rules (5 for fighting). You also aren't consenting to other physical contact that is not allowed in the rules.

So here we go back to A: consent. If you get two willing fighters squaring off you can say they are consenting. But there is also B: self-defence. If you're being attacked and you punch back, you're protected by the principles of self defence, covered in section 34 of the Criminal Code.

Criminal Code

Federal laws of Canada

lois-laws.justice.gc.ca

Now this covers a whole lot of factors that the court will consider in whether criminal responsibility should be found or not, including the level of force, the person's involvement in it, and prior history between the parties, etc.

So just a couple more factors to throw into the mix.

There is always the question of intent. No matter how horrible the result might be, if there a reasonable doubt about whether someone intended an action is always a defence.

And finally circling back to the question of consent - it should be noted that consent is NEVER a defence to the infliction of bodily harm. So you might square up for a willing fight, but then your opponent swings his stick and breaks your arm, consent does not factor into it.

1991 CanLII 77 (SCC) | R. v. Jobidon | CanLII

Access all information related to judgment R. v. Jobidon, 1991 CanLII 77 (SCC), [1991] 2 SCR 714 on CanLII.

www.canlii.org

Finally, if you want to dig deeper into this question you can start with the old case of R v Watson (1975) 26 CCC (2d) 150. It's a fight between two 18 year old juniors. It goes through an analysis of lots of the factors mentioned above (though by now it's kind of old).

1975 CanLII 1493 (ON CJ) | Regina v. Watson | CanLII

Access all information related to judgment Regina v. Watson, 1975 CanLII 1493 (ON CJ) on CanLII.

www.canlii.org

If you want to keep digging you can look into the old Steve Moore and Todd Bertuzzi incident, but there Bertuzzi entered a guilty plea to so there's little analysis about why exactly he was guilty.


So to summarize: I am deliberately not going to give an opinion whether this Vancouver realtor should be guilty of assault. That's what people pay me money to do, so I'm not going to do it for free. But absolutely the Criminal law can still apply to a hockey rink, and frankly a lot more often than some hockey players realize.

You’re injecting FACTS into this discussion? This is the internet, pal. Take that witchcraft elsewhere.

 

[JohnLennon]

I play hockey regularly as well... and in all my life I don't think I've ever seen anyone flailing their legs like this guy did. He's pinned down by a player, and when the guy's leaving, he kicks him with his skate and keeps trying. He knew full well how dangerous it is to throw skates around like that.

Not to mention, guy's got a yellow bucket... lmao

 

[Yukon Joe]

You’re injecting FACTS into this discussion? This is the internet, pal. Take that witchcraft elsewhere.

OK so here's the lawyer in me: nothing I posted were FACTS. What I posted was LAW - both statutes (the Criminal Code) and caselaw.

And if you don't know the difference - that's why I sent three years in law school. But a difference between a finding of FACT and a finding of LAW makes a huge difference in court.

 

[Kevinsane]

OK so here's the lawyer in me: nothing I posted were FACTS. What I posted was LAW - both statutes (the Criminal Code) and caselaw.

And if you don't know the difference - that's why I sent three years in law school. But a difference between a finding of FACT and a finding of LAW makes a huge difference in court.

Dude, I was just kidding. Thanks for your contribution. It sheds a nice light on what happened.

 

[DingerMcSlapshot]

If that was against any team, I ever played on bench would've cleared. Then kick boys life would've been forever altered.

 

[67 others]

Yea, because punching someone with a nice padded glove is the same as using a deadly weapon on someone's face/neck area. Bravo on such a great comparison.

Padded glove...lol

A hockey glove punch is like getting hit with a brick.

 

[67 others]

lol @The Crypto Guy and @Filthy Dangles you can laugh at the idea that its a "padded glove", but it is considered a weapon. Which is a major reason why you get extra penalties and a game misconduct and suspensions for punching with gloves on. Its rock hard on the outside and designed to protect fingers from hard hockey stick slashing at top speed, and its heavier than your hand increasing punching power.

When Bertuzzi hit Moore with his glove on, folks wanted him charged with attempted murder and experts talked about how its like hitting someone with a brick.

Is a skate more dangerous? Well yeah. Glove is still considered a dangerous weapon. If you wore them, you would know that

 

[Filthy Dangles]

lol @The Crypto Guy and @Filthy Dangles you can laugh at the idea that its a "padded glove", but it is considered a weapon. Which is a major reason why you get extra penalties and a game misconduct and suspensions for punching with gloves on. Its rock hard on the outside and designed to protect fingers from hard hockey stick slashing at top speed, and its heavier than your hand increasing punching power.

When Bertuzzi hit Moore with his glove on, folks wanted him charged with attempted murder and experts talked about how its like hitting someone with a brick.

Is a skate more dangerous? Well yeah. Glove is still considered a dangerous weapon. If you wore them, you would know that

Are you reallt trying to say eating a punch from a hockey glove will do more damage than bare knuckles...?

Plus, this isn't the NHL man, it's beer league, most of these dudes aren't going to be wearing ultra-protective high end gloves with extrahard inserts like NHL players are.

 

[Boeser Fan]

lol @The Crypto Guy and @Filthy Dangles you can laugh at the idea that its a "padded glove", but it is considered a weapon. Which is a major reason why you get extra penalties and a game misconduct and suspensions for punching with gloves on. Its rock hard on the outside and designed to protect fingers from hard hockey stick slashing at top speed, and its heavier than your hand increasing punching power.

When Bertuzzi hit Moore with his glove on, folks wanted him charged with attempted murder and experts talked about how its like hitting someone with a brick.

Is a skate more dangerous? Well yeah. Glove is still considered a dangerous weapon. If you wore them, you would know that

That's a lot of energy to spend defending a guy kicking someone with a skate.

 

[67 others]

That's a lot of energy to spend defending a guy kicking someone with a skate.

I'm not even defending the guy. I read through the thread put of interest and then saw someone post the dumb "hockey gloves are pillow soft" and corrected it because I play and know how hard you can hit with those things. Even cheap Bauer ones from walmart

Which is why it's a major, misconduct and usually suspension to grt caught close fisted punching a face with gloves on. The hard plastic, rough exterior and form protects your hand from snapshots and slashes.

If you tried to put that material on MMA gloves or boxing gloves the ref would instantly feel it and you would be suspended and licence revoked because it would be considered a deadly weapon.

Christ Antonio Margarito had his license revoked for putting a light coating of powdered plaster on the wraps under his gloves so it would harden when he sweats. It's essentially brass knuckles

 

[67 others]

Are you reallt trying to say eating a punch from a hockey glove will do more damage than bare knuckles...?

Plus, this isn't the NHL man, it's beer league, most of these dudes aren't going to be wearing ultra-protective high end gloves with extrahard inserts like NHL players are.

Go wear a cheap set of bauers at Walmart and then see. It's basically brass knuckles

 

[Hockeylife2018]

Go wear a cheap set of bauers at Walmart and then see. It's basically brass knuckles

Agreed, I was getting worked over by a mafia member once for some unpain debt...they gave me the choice of brass knuckles or Bauer gloves. Needless to say I gladly took the brass knuckles

 

[67 others]

Agreed, I was getting worked over by a mafia member once for some unpain debt...they gave me the choice of brass knuckles or Bauer gloves. Needless to say I gladly took the brass knuckles

Love the sarcasm. But Shocking! Every source on NHL fighting seems to confirm it.

In fact, its the first thing that pops up when you google "Hockey rules gloves fighting"

i'm sure Dangles and Crypto will just laugh Emoji and avoid commenting because they have no reasonable retort as usual.

 

[Hockeylife2018]

Love the sarcasm. But Shocking! Every source on NHL fighting seems to confirm it.

In fact, its the first thing that pops up when you google "Hockey rules gloves fighting"

i'm sure Dangles and Crypto will just laugh Emoji and avoid commenting because they have no reasonable retort as usual.

I don't see a single source that describes them as brass knuckles....yes they hurt, but the brass knuckles comparison is just embarassing

 

[67 others]

I don't see a single source that describes them as brass knuckles....yes they hurt, but the brass knuckles comparison is just embarassing

As opposed to the chap I was talking to who claimed they were pillow soft and that bare knuckles would hurt way more? That's even MORE embarrassing.

Hockey gloves are rock hard, protect your hand so you can punch without breaking it and cause more damage than a bare fist. Every source agrees on that. So which is closer? Calling them pillow soft or calling them an enhancing punch weapon?

 

[DaaaaB's]

Love the sarcasm. But Shocking! Every source on NHL fighting seems to confirm it.

In fact, its the first thing that pops up when you google "Hockey rules gloves fighting"

i'm sure Dangles and Crypto will just laugh Emoji and avoid commenting because they have no reasonable retort as usual.

I wouldn't waste your time with those two. They're both immature children who have clearly never played hockey.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Okay, so lawyer/rec hockey player with nothing better to do on a Sunday night chiming in. I'm going to focus in almost entirely on the interplay between the Criminal law and hockey (and then entirely Canadian criminal law, though a lot of the general principles apply in the US).

There's a lot of partially correct information out here, but partially incorrect. When you play hockey you are absolutely consenting to a certain level of physical contact. Consent is a defence to a charge of assault - it's right there in the definition of assault - it's the intentional application of force without the consent of the other person.

Criminal Code

Federal laws of Canada

laws-lois.justice.gc.ca

But so what exactly are you consenting to when you play hockey? Generally speaking incidental body contact, depending on your league even intentional body checking. Almost all physical contact in hockey is easily covered by consent.

But guess what - there's not a hockey league anywhere - not pro, not amateur, not rec - that allows fighting. Even though the NHL tacitly allows it, it's still against the rules (5 for fighting). You also aren't consenting to other physical contact that is not allowed in the rules.

So here we go back to A: consent. If you get two willing fighters squaring off you can say they are consenting. But there is also B: self-defence. If you're being attacked and you punch back, you're protected by the principles of self defence, covered in section 34 of the Criminal Code.

Criminal Code

Federal laws of Canada

lois-laws.justice.gc.ca

Now this covers a whole lot of factors that the court will consider in whether criminal responsibility should be found or not, including the level of force, the person's involvement in it, and prior history between the parties, etc.

So just a couple more factors to throw into the mix.

There is always the question of intent. No matter how horrible the result might be, if there a reasonable doubt about whether someone intended an action is always a defence.

And finally circling back to the question of consent - it should be noted that consent is NEVER a defence to the infliction of bodily harm. So you might square up for a willing fight, but then your opponent swings his stick and breaks your arm, consent does not factor into it.

1991 CanLII 77 (SCC) | R. v. Jobidon | CanLII

Access all information related to judgment R. v. Jobidon, 1991 CanLII 77 (SCC), [1991] 2 SCR 714 on CanLII.

www.canlii.org

Finally, if you want to dig deeper into this question you can start with the old case of R v Watson (1975) 26 CCC (2d) 150. It's a fight between two 18 year old juniors. It goes through an analysis of lots of the factors mentioned above (though by now it's kind of old).

1975 CanLII 1493 (ON CJ) | Regina v. Watson | CanLII

Access all information related to judgment Regina v. Watson, 1975 CanLII 1493 (ON CJ) on CanLII.

www.canlii.org

If you want to keep digging you can look into the old Steve Moore and Todd Bertuzzi incident, but there Bertuzzi entered a guilty plea to so there's little analysis about why exactly he was guilty.


So to summarize: I am deliberately not going to give an opinion whether this Vancouver realtor should be guilty of assault. That's what people pay me money to do, so I'm not going to do it for free. But absolutely the Criminal law can still apply to a hockey rink, and frankly a lot more often than some hockey players realize.

Ok so here’s a question for you, if you don’t mind: scrum occurs at the crease in adult beer league hockey. It’s only pushing and shoving, until Player A punches Player B in the face with a gloved hand. Is that assault, or covered under the rules of consent? Genuinely curious, because after reading your lengthy post, I’m still unsure of whether it would be considered assault or not (given that the players didn’t “square up” ie. Both consent in the traditional sense).

 

[Filthy Dangles]

I wouldn't waste your time with those two. They're both immature children who have clearly never played hockey.

haha, clown