Vancouver Realtor facing criminal charges and lifetime ban from Beer League hockey for kicking an opponent's face with his skates

You’ve seen people take a knife(skate blade) and kick it into the face of someone? You’re a big tough guy I gather, let me guess you would just take that guy out back and give him a pounding huh :laugh:. You’re def the guy that walks into the locker room and everyone rolls their eyes and wish didn’t show up.

Grow up.
Uh yes, I've seen plenty of kicks and stomps in the NHL and elsewhere. The blade didn't even make contact with the guy in this one. I've never claimed to be a tough guy, just a guy who grew up playing and watching hockey. I take it you started watching in the last 10 years and probably never played. Do you even remember guys like Chris Simon and Chris Pronger?
 
Kicking a guy in the face with a skate on should be a charge and a conviction. Most dirty thing I have even seen in rec hockey, after three decades of playing and two decades of reffing. I would call the police for sure.

Punching someone in the face is also worthy of a charge and conviction

Have you ever called the police because a player punched an opponent?
 
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My friends were there. They’re in the Hotshots team and said he wasn’t sorry at all. Had a stupid smirk on his face the entire time after the incident like he showed them whos boss. And he was absolutely trying to kick someone in the face. It wasn’t an accident.

Just to confirm, I heard that this was the kicker's first game back from a previous suspension. Also, I heard the kicker, was suspended once for breaking another person's leg, and was a known A-hole that did questionable shit all the time.
 
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Punching someone in the face is also worthy of a charge and conviction

Have you ever called the police because a player punched an opponent?
This isn’t the NHL, it’s beer league hockey. Every adult league that I’ve been in has it in their rules that police will be called in the event of a fight breaking out.

To compare recreational hockey with the rules of professional leagues is asinine. Yes, you should be held accountable for your actions if you act like a hard ass in a league where people are playing for purely enjoyment/exercise.
 
I don't feel super comfortable making excuses for this guy, but one thing we cannot tell is whether he realized the other guy's face was right there. The ref is blocking our view of his head, so we don't know what he was seeing.

Obviously it's never OK to kick someone, but there's a big difference between deliberately kicking a dude right in the face, versus kicking blindly when someone's pinning your leg down during a fight. The former is psychotic and criminal, the latter is a potentially dangerous thing that a normal person might do in the heat of the moment.

Also not a huge fan of how this guy has been doxxed and swarmed online. He was already going to be held responsible, both civilly and criminally. At this point it's looking like he's going to be ruined professionally in addition to the legal and personal accountability he already faced. Too many vigilantes out there escalating a situation that isn't their business.
If I could up vote this a thousand times it wouldn’t be enough. Lemme have an amen people!
 
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Jesus, not for nothing, but in todays 'day and age' people seem to love and dox and spread information around. Say the wrong thing, or do something and people can find out nearly every single thing about you.

There are a whole lot of zero-value individuals who can use it as a cheap way to feel good about themselves.
 
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This isn’t the NHL, it’s beer league hockey. Every adult league that I’ve been in has it in their rules that police will be called in the event of a fight breaking out.

To compare recreational hockey with the rules of professional leagues is asinine. Yes, you should be held accountable for your actions if you act like a hard ass in a league where people are playing for purely enjoyment/exercise.

Cool. Now quote the part of my comment where I compared recreational hockey with the rules of professional leagues

I'll wait...
 
Punching someone in the face is also worthy of a charge and conviction

Have you ever called the police because a player punched an opponent?

This is not true.

That is a consent fight which is legal in Canadian law. (Ie boxing)

When you play hockey you “consent” to some forms of violence Ie high sticking etc.

There is nothing for kick a guy in the head with skates That is not in the rules.

There is no “2 minutes for knife shoes”.
 
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This is not true.

That is a consent fight which is legal in Canadian law. (Ie boxing)

When you play hockey you “consent” to some forms of violence Ie high sticking etc.

There is nothing for kick a guy in the head with skates That is not in the rules.

There is no “2 minutes for knife shoes”.

Cool. Now quote the part of my comment where I said anything about mutual combat

I'll wait...
 
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Cool. Now quote the part of my comment where I said anything about mutual combat

I'll wait...

1.) mutual combat is not a Canadian legal term.

2:) The part where people sign waivers and consents and have voluntarily agreed to the rules. These include getting punched in the face. High sticking tripping etc

They do not include kicking to the face.

There is no rule to that. If he brought a knife into the arena and stabbed him. Not part of the rules

If he waited until after the game and “slashed” someone with a stick. Not part of the rules.

The rule book is there. The waivers are there. You may not have any idea what you Have consented to.

Doesn’t Change the law.
 
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Okay, so lawyer/rec hockey player with nothing better to do on a Sunday night chiming in. I'm going to focus in almost entirely on the interplay between the Criminal law and hockey (and then entirely Canadian criminal law, though a lot of the general principles apply in the US).

There's a lot of partially correct information out here, but partially incorrect. When you play hockey you are absolutely consenting to a certain level of physical contact. Consent is a defence to a charge of assault - it's right there in the definition of assault - it's the intentional application of force without the consent of the other person.


But so what exactly are you consenting to when you play hockey? Generally speaking incidental body contact, depending on your league even intentional body checking. Almost all physical contact in hockey is easily covered by consent.

But guess what - there's not a hockey league anywhere - not pro, not amateur, not rec - that allows fighting. Even though the NHL tacitly allows it, it's still against the rules (5 for fighting). You also aren't consenting to other physical contact that is not allowed in the rules.

So here we go back to A: consent. If you get two willing fighters squaring off you can say they are consenting. But there is also B: self-defence. If you're being attacked and you punch back, you're protected by the principles of self defence, covered in section 34 of the Criminal Code.


Now this covers a whole lot of factors that the court will consider in whether criminal responsibility should be found or not, including the level of force, the person's involvement in it, and prior history between the parties, etc.

So just a couple more factors to throw into the mix.

There is always the question of intent. No matter how horrible the result might be, if there a reasonable doubt about whether someone intended an action is always a defence.

And finally circling back to the question of consent - it should be noted that consent is NEVER a defence to the infliction of bodily harm. So you might square up for a willing fight, but then your opponent swings his stick and breaks your arm, consent does not factor into it.


Finally, if you want to dig deeper into this question you can start with the old case of R v Watson (1975) 26 CCC (2d) 150. It's a fight between two 18 year old juniors. It goes through an analysis of lots of the factors mentioned above (though by now it's kind of old).


If you want to keep digging you can look into the old Steve Moore and Todd Bertuzzi incident, but there Bertuzzi entered a guilty plea to so there's little analysis about why exactly he was guilty.


So to summarize: I am deliberately not going to give an opinion whether this Vancouver realtor should be guilty of assault. That's what people pay me money to do, so I'm not going to do it for free. But absolutely the Criminal law can still apply to a hockey rink, and frankly a lot more often than some hockey players realize.
 
1.) mutual combat is not a Canadian legal term.

2:) The part where people sign waivers and consents and have voluntarily agreed to the rules. These include getting punched in the face. High sticking tripping etc

They do not include kicking to the face.

There is no rule to that. If he brought a knife into the arena and stabbed him. Not part of the rules

If he waited until after the game and “slashed” someone with a stick. Not part of the rules.

The rule book is there. The waivers are there. You may not have any idea what you Have consented to.

Doesn’t Change the law.

So, if someone signs up to play in the Adult Safe Hockey League, they've voluntarily agreed to be punched in the face? That's what you're saying?
 
So, if someone signs up to play in the Adult Safe Hockey League, they've voluntarily agreed to be punched in the face? That's what you're saying?
I just gave a big long answer, but the short answer...

If someone sucker punches you no you did not agree to it. If someone drops their gloves, offers to fight, and you agree, then you did voluntarily agree to it.

Just as a side note: the waivers you sign are mostly to protect the hockey league. For the most part you can't waive your rights under the Criminal Code.
 
I just gave a big long answer, but the short answer...

If someone sucker punches you no you did not agree to it. If someone drops their gloves, offers to fight, and you agree, then you did voluntarily agree to it.

Just as a side note: the waivers you sign are mostly to protect the hockey league. For the most part you can't waive your rights under the Criminal Code.

I know, I just wanted @Legion34 to double down on his ignorance
 
So, if someone signs up to play in the Adult Safe Hockey League, they've voluntarily agreed to be punched in the face? That's what you're saying?

Well it would depend on the specific rules and proving the expectations of what a person is consenting to. There is nothing “special” about professional or non professional hockey in terms of the law. It’s pretty simple

1.) you voluntarily play organized hockey. It is your responsibility to know what you are getting in to. The rules of hockey. The unwritten rules of societal expectations are considered
- the entire knowledge base of hockey is what is to be expected. It is a nationally televised sport. There is you tube, “I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out”. There is a rule book that shows infractions and penalties. You have to know that a person can “punch you in the face”’get a 2 minute penalty and keep playing. He doesn’t go to jail. This is your responsibility to know this.

This would all be considered. Generally yes. If you voluntarily go to play hockey. You aren’t on the street walking around. You can reasonably expect face washing/tripping/slashing etc. if there are specific
Clearly defined rules that go against that. Then maybe….

You would have to define the act not only in terms of what a person could reasonably expect and whether they put themselves in that situation and what they defendent thought were the reasonable expectations.

Ie: nude beach is not indecent exposure. Regular beach probably an issue.

This isn’t hard. You can easily google. Multiple lawyers have written multiple articles on the subject. In the specific car of an “adult safe” league. One would have to show why it was unreasonable. Hockey players can be charged if it is a “marked departure” from what would you would be consenting to.


Put it this way. All levels of sports from high school up often have uniform police officers watching.
About every 3 seconds there is something that would constitute assault or assault with a weapon.

Officers are legally bound to stop assaults. There is a reason every hockey player isn’t charged.
Google is your friend in this case.

Edit. This isn’t Canadian but in case you are actually serious about not understanding that hockey players aren’t all criminals.


Hockey has its own expectations and rules and consent. Hitting a player with a stick in hockey is generally a 2 min penalty. Hitting a golfer with a club is an assault.

While hockey may allow to consent to being checked slashed punched. There is no expectation in hockey anywhere. That a guy can kick a guy in the head with a skate.

Which would be why he is facing criminal charges. And others who “punch” often do not.
 
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Cool. Now quote the part of my comment where I compared recreational hockey with the rules of professional leagues

I'll wait...
You asked if someone has called the police for someone punching an opponent in the face. Punching happens regularly in professional hockey and rarely in recreational hockey.

I told you that leagues that I’ve been in do, in fact, call police if punches are thrown. Since you seem to think it’s an acceptable thing in all adult rec leagues.

You have to be as much of a scum bag as the guy who kicked someone in the head with a skate to try to rationalize how that is somehow normal or expected in an adult league game.
 
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You asked if someone has called the police for someone punching an opponent in the face. Punching happens regularly in professional hockey and rarely in recreational hockey.

I told you that leagues that I’ve been in do, in fact, call police if punches are thrown. Since you seem to think it’s an acceptable thing in all adult rec leagues.

You have to be as much of a scum bag as the guy who kicked someone in the head with a skate to try to rationalize how that is somehow normal or expected in an adult league game.

Cool. Now quote the part of my comment where I said punching an opponent in the face was acceptable in adult rec. leagues

I'll wait...
 
Cool. Now quote the part of my comment where I said punching an opponent in the face was acceptable in adult rec. leagues

I'll wait...
Instead of you continuing to move the goalposts, I'll just tell you you're correct so you can have something to be proud of yourself for.

Every adult league game should just be a melee of fists and skates so people can live out their fantasy of playing hockey like they see on the TV.
 
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Instead of you continuing to move the goalposts, I'll just tell you you're correct so you can have something to be proud of yourself for.

Every adult league game should just be a melee of fists and skates so people can live out their fantasy of playing hockey like they see on the TV.

Cool. Now quote the part of my comment where I moved the goalposts

I'll wait...
 
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Yea, because punching someone with a nice padded glove is the same as using a deadly weapon on someone's face/neck area. Bravo on such a great comparison.
Yes because bare fisted punches never happen in hockey. I'm thinking that not only have you never played competitive hockey but you also haven't even watched it.
 

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