Proposal: Vancouver - Boston

[PetterssonSimp]

Watching both closely I can tell you that this is no longer the case. The Canucks would be happy if Juolevi made the NHL as a 2nd pairing player. That's it. Zboril has more offensive upside and showed he could play well in the NHL.

If anything the trade should be around a hockey trade Heinen for Virtanen.

Why should Vancouver downgrade their roster? I’m really interested in hearing this. Virtanen has nearly as many goals as Heinen points.

 

[GoodbyeLuongo]

Watching both closely I can tell you that this is no longer the case. The Canucks would be happy if Juolevi made the NHL as a 2nd pairing player. That's it. Zboril has more offensive upside and showed he could play well in the NHL.

If anything the trade should be around a hockey trade Heinen for Virtanen.

Zboril has played two games. That means absolutely nothing in regards to whether or not he can play well in the NHL. Yann Sauve played 8 decent games in the NHL too.

 

[Coach Parker]

Why should Vancouver downgrade their roster? I’m really interested in hearing this. Virtanen has nearly as many goals as Heinen points.

Pretty simple; I don't see that swap as a downgrade at all. I see it as one of the best hockey trades to be made. Virtanen does not work on Horvat's line. He is a career third liner with potential to play the second line.

This year the young Bruins roster is in a sophomore slump (McAvoy, DeBrusk, Heinen, Donato). Last year Heinen put up more points than Virtanen had in his career. In fact, Heinen has put up 7 more points in 60 (SIXTY) less games. That is a huge difference if you want to talk stats but I don't need to in this case.

Virtanen has one goal since Dec 22nd. One goal in 2019. One goal in 18 games. People have had one 'shotgun Jake' moment in almost two months.

In that same amount of time Heinen has 4 goals.

Again. I don't need stats to prove convincingly that Heinen has the better stats line and has produced at a much higher pace.

What interests me is two things that I see (I have been to over a dozen Canucks games and follow them daily as well) with the two players; Heinen's potential to play with Horvat. I don't see any potential or ability of Horvat to work with Virtanen despite numerous attempts. They simply play a different style.

The same problem for Heinen in Boston; he doesn't play a game that works well with Krejci/DeBrusk.

Bruins fans argue that Heinen for Virtanen is a waste or downgrade based on NHL stats and career stats. I see a potential for two players to change locations, bring Heinen home to the Lower Mainland and try a new face who has proven to be able to put up almost 50 points in the NHL with Horvat.

Perhaps the outside speed of Virtanen will complement DeBrusk as well and the two of them can open up some ice for Krejci.

What's clear is that Virtanen isn't the match for Horvat and the 2nd line in Vancouver and Heinen isn't the match for Krejci and DeBrusk/Cehlarik.

A change of scenery for both players where there is a better potential fit for their style of play in the new franchises. If neither works out, they both end up on the third lines (where they currently are now) on the respective teams continuing to develop and put up points very spiratticaly.

That is my rationale when not using the stat lines simply because Virtanen's stats don't compare to Heinen's. It's about finding the right complementary players for the real NHL leaders (Krejci, Horvat) on each team. Horvat and Krejci deserve the chance to see a new talent or winger who can actually help them produce and are young and can develop with the rest of their teams cores.

Cheers

 

[Coach Parker]

Zboril has played two games. That means absolutely nothing in regards to whether or not he can play well in the NHL. Yann Sauve played 8 decent games in the NHL too.

I agree but in those two games he has shown more than Juolevi has at any point in his career. I think we'd both agree at this point that Benning and company would be very happy if Juolevi could make the camp next year and be a serviceable 2nd pairing NHL regular.

 

[GoodbyeLuongo]

I agree but in those two games he has shown more than Juolevi has at any point in his career. I think we'd both agree at this point that Benning and company would be very happy if Juolevi could make the camp next year and be a serviceable 2nd pairing NHL regular.

Juolevi had been dynamite in Utica till his injury. I never understand how on this site if a guy isn't an NHL stud a year or two after he's drafted he's a bust. His draft +1 wasn't great, the last two years he's been terrific. Had it not been for him getting hurt he'd probably be in Vancouver by now.

 

[Coach Parker]

Juolevi had been dynamite in Utica till his injury. I never understand how on this site if a guy isn't an NHL stud a year or two after he's drafted he's a bust. His draft +1 wasn't great, the last two years he's been terrific. Had it not been for him getting hurt he'd probably be in Vancouver by now.

Agree to disagree. Between the conditioning issues paired with the concerns (even from Salo) about his drive/mental fortitude the progression hasn't been nearly where it should be with comparison to his drafted peers.

I do agree with you about patience with young defensemen and their slower progression but no one who follows the Canucks in the NHL or Utica would say 'he's been terrific'. He has not been terrific.

Finally, I am comparing the two Zboril and Juolevi and preach patience with both. But in both cases they were drafted high to be a future top pairing defenseman and both are looking like hopefully serviceable 2nd pairing D.

 

[PetterssonSimp]

Pretty simple; I don't see that swap as a downgrade at all. I see it as one of the best hockey trades to be made. Virtanen does not work on Horvat's line. He is a career third liner with potential to play the second line.

This year the young Bruins roster is in a sophomore slump (McAvoy, DeBrusk, Heinen, Donato). Last year Heinen put up more points than Virtanen had in his career. In fact, Heinen has put up 7 more points in 60 (SIXTY) less games. That is a huge difference if you want to talk stats but I don't need to in this case.

Virtanen has one goal since Dec 22nd. One goal in 2019. One goal in 18 games. People have had one 'shotgun Jake' moment in almost two months.

In that same amount of time Heinen has 4 goals.

Again. I don't need stats to prove convincingly that Heinen has the better stats line and has produced at a much higher pace.

What interests me is two things that I see (I have been to over a dozen Canucks games and follow them daily as well) with the two players; Heinen's potential to play with Horvat. I don't see any potential or ability of Horvat to work with Virtanen despite numerous attempts. They simply play a different style.

The same problem for Heinen in Boston; he doesn't play a game that works well with Krejci/DeBrusk.

Bruins fans argue that Heinen for Virtanen is a waste or downgrade based on NHL stats and career stats. I see a potential for two players to change locations, bring Heinen home to the Lower Mainland and try a new face who has proven to be able to put up almost 50 points in the NHL with Horvat.

Perhaps the outside speed of Virtanen will complement DeBrusk as well and the two of them can open up some ice for Krejci.

What's clear is that Virtanen isn't the match for Horvat and the 2nd line in Vancouver and Heinen isn't the match for Krejci and DeBrusk/Cehlarik.

A change of scenery for both players where there is a better potential fit for their style of play in the new franchises. If neither works out, they both end up on the third lines (where they currently are now) on the respective teams continuing to develop and put up points very spiratticaly.

That is my rationale when not using the stat lines simply because Virtanen's stats don't compare to Heinen's. It's about finding the right complementary players for the real NHL leaders (Krejci, Horvat) on each team. Horvat and Krejci deserve the chance to see a new talent or winger who can actually help them produce and are young and can develop with the rest of their teams cores.

Cheers

Virtanen with Horvat has worked when allowed to stay there. The problem is Virtanen is literally one of our better play driving forwards and is constantly put with Sutter to try get some semblance of a line out of Sutter.
Heinen has been piss poor this season! He’s small and basically exactly what Vancouver has been trying with their roster constantly over the last few years. Canucks lack the size and physicality that Virtanen can bring to the ice on other lines than Virtanen’s.

 

[Coach Parker]

Virtanen with Horvat has worked when allowed to stay there. The problem is Virtanen is literally one of our better play driving forwards and is constantly put with Sutter to try get some semblance of a line out of Sutter.
Heinen has been piss poor this season! He’s small and basically exactly what Vancouver has been trying with their roster constantly over the last few years. Canucks lack the size and physicality that Virtanen can bring to the ice on other lines than Virtanen’s.

No it hasn't. The stats prove that Virtanen hasn't produced when put with Horvat. One goal in 18 games.

Finally, if/when Heinen surpasses Virtanen in points this year and in your words has been 'piss poor' this year, what will that make Virtanen? Honestly. If Heinen has been 'piss poor' and has 4 less goals and 2 less assists, what has Virtanen been?

Honest evaluation of players here. Can you concede that Heinen has career-wise been better than Virtanen by a large margin and is 4 goals and 2 assists away from tying him in points this year?

Oh, and both are 6'1".

 

[PetterssonSimp]

No it hasn't. The stats prove that Virtanen hasn't produced when put with Horvat. One goal in 18 games.

Finally, if/when Heinen surpasses Virtanen in points this year and in your words has been 'piss poor' this year, what will that make Virtanen? Honestly. If Heinen has been 'piss poor' and has 4 less goals and 2 less assists, what has Virtanen been?

Honest evaluation of players here. Can you concede that Heinen has career-wise been better than Virtanen by a large margin and is 4 goals and 2 assists away from tying him in points this year?

Oh, and both are 6'1".

I’m done with this. I don’t want Heinen, when posters from this side have seen the output of Heinen this year their interest drops and the offers are usually Granlund or Goldobin levels from our side. Your side is the only one on about Virtanen. That says enough to me.

 

[Coach Parker]

Trust me I get it. I live here and see all the Virtanen love from fans and his 'shotgun Jake' play. I also hear all the time that he should get to play on the top line for some reason. I also heard all these EXACT same arguments about Kassian for years as my buddies defended him and tried to tell me how amazing he will be one day.

Canucks are in no rush to make a move and can sit and let Virtanen play it out. While they do, Horvat suffers night in and night out. What a waste.

I'm not going to bash Virtanen because I like him. It's usually other fans who attack Heinen when conveniently ignoring how his stats are better than Virtanen's.

People always ask for hockey trades in the NHL but everyone overvalues their own talent and prospects so poorly that it's almost impossible to actually discuss on this board. Once Heinen passes Virtanen in points we'll see if you can come back here and say Virtanen is having a 'piss poor' season (your words not mine.)

Cheers

 

[Coach Parker]

I’m done with this. I don’t want Heinen, when posters from this side have seen the output of Heinen this year their interest drops and the offers are usually Granlund or Goldobin levels from our side. Your side is the only one on about Virtanen. That says enough to me.

Okay. Those two have nothing near the value of Heinen even combined. Both are healthy scratch 4th liners on their way to the AHL or waivers so the discussion is useless there.

Again, be mature enough to post here that Virtanen is having a 'piss poor' season when Heinen passes him for points.

 

[alg363636]

Bruins have too many fourth liners as it is no thanks

 

[GoodbyeLuongo]

Trust me I get it. I live here and see all the Virtanen love from fans and his 'shotgun Jake' play. I also hear all the time that he should get to play on the top line for some reason. I also heard all these EXACT same arguments about Kassian for years as my buddies defended him and tried to tell me how amazing he will be one day.

Canucks are in no rush to make a move and can sit and let Virtanen play it out. While they do, Horvat suffers night in and night out. What a waste.

I'm not going to bash Virtanen because I like him. It's usually other fans who attack Heinen when conveniently ignoring how his stats are better than Virtanen's.

People always ask for hockey trades in the NHL but everyone overvalues their own talent and prospects so poorly that it's almost impossible to actually discuss on this board. Once Heinen passes Virtanen in points we'll see if you can come back here and say Virtanen is having a 'piss poor' season (your words not mine.)

Cheers

Horvat is on pace to put up 25 goals and 60 plus points. All the while being elite defensively and just stupid good in the dot (16-4 last night). Don't think he's suffering too much

 

[Coach Parker]

Horvat is on pace to put up 25 goals and 60 plus points. All the while being elite defensively and just stupid good in the dot (16-4 last night). Don't think he's suffering too much

We both know that given the right winger he can hit 30 goals and be a PPG centre. His struggles this year are well documented and this last two weeks was the first time I've seen first hand his frustrations.

 

[GoodbyeLuongo]

We both know that given the right winger he can hit 30 goals and be a PPG centre. His struggles this year are well documented and this last two weeks was the first time I've seen first hand his frustrations.

I'm really unsure of his struggles this year. A guy who's gonna set a career high in everything while playing a terrific two way game has had well documented struggles? Sure when he gets better line mates his numbers will improve but it's not like he's gonna have 35-40 points. He's gonna have 60-65. Yes, he's had a rough couple weeks scoring goals but was still doing everything else extremely well including getting assists.

 

[Coach Parker]

I'm really unsure of his struggles this year. A guy who's gonna set a career high in everything while playing a terrific two way game has had well documented struggles? Sure when he gets better line mates his numbers will improve but it's not like he's gonna have 35-40 points. He's gonna have 60-65. Yes, he's had a rough couple weeks scoring goals but was still doing everything else extremely well including getting assists.

I see the ceiling higher for Horvat and the need to try different RWers that are young, on ELC contracts and have scored before as the key here moving forward. The secondary scoring will come in Vancouver once the right RWer is found for Horvat. He is capable of an 82 point season with the right help.

I think most objective Canucks fans see the need for a secondary scorer but also realize the team doesn't have the young prospects or NHL calibre players that another team would covet outside of the guys they are building around. No one wants Granlund or Goldobin. Thank god Goldie has a friendship and some chemistry with EP40 because if he didn't I think he'd be waived/ in the AHL awhile ago despite some members of the Vancouver media's high hopes for him (Price, lol).

 

[zcaptain]

So, most experts not on HF Boards say that Vancouver is looking really good in their 2 year projections...….and that is with a rag tag defense that isn't totally constructed.

I am not saying that, Vancouver will be the top of the league, but I do think that Vancouver needs to wait and see how this rebuild works its self out...….

As any Vancouver fan that saw last nights game would say, Markstrom has looked really good these past 3 months, and with our new/old goalie coach, the adjustments have been obvious. With Demko here, and DiPietro (here short term) our Goaltending look solid.

Now, "IF" Hughes does as advertised and can run an offense, our PP will improve, this can also be said of Juolevi as well, as he was on a PPG as a Dman in the AHL, before getting injured. With Hutton and Stecher doing well, and Edler and Tanev as veterans, the Canucks have the "Potential" to have a much improved defense next year, and that does not include the enigma Tryamkin, who may or may not come back. I think it is enough for Vancouver brass to wait and see.
We shall see!

As for the forwards, as any "hockey" fan will attest, Our young guys (Pettersson/Boeser/Horvat) look great, we have not seen that for awhile, Virtanen is doing great, and contributes with speed and a big body.....defense have to watch him, as he can get by most. He is a project, but not one we would want to get rid of. Not Can Neely by any means, but if he continues to mature and develop, he will be a nice complimentary piece (not too worried about where he was drafted...doesn't matter after the fact)

For the most part, we just have to be patient, and relax. Of course we are like any other franchise and would love to trade biscuits for gold......but we when healthy, have been a test for most clubs, even now. (look at the teams we have beaten this year) again it has been mostly injuries that have slowed us from being better (as most clubs), but we were not expected to challenge for a playoff berth this year. (we are a little ahead of where we thought we would be)

But, IMO, other than gaining another pick or 2, or moving a 2021 1st to 1 this year, I think we should just wait and hope we can pick a few more cherries at the draft. We have cap and "IF" Benning wants, I would love to pick up one UFA left winger......I dream of Stone and Panarin (as most do)...we shall see!

Parting though......for the guys that wonder about Benning...…...he has done a great job drafting, with a few misses, but generally, he has done better than most. Last years draft, has me pretty happy.....Hughes/Woo/Madden, but please keep this in mind. I actually was a Boston fan with Orr/Hodge/Espo/Cheavers etc, so I watch Boston pretty carefully, and what I have noticed over the past few years, is Boston has great patience with their picks, I believe it is something Benning should do.

Cheers!

 

[wintersej]

I’m done with this. I don’t want Heinen, when posters from this side have seen the output of Heinen this year their interest drops and the offers are usually Granlund or Goldobin levels from our side. Your side is the only one on about Virtanen. That says enough to me.

“I just got proven wrong. I am done!”

 

[The don godfather]

I can see a deal around virtanen and donato or heinen .

 

[M2Beezy]

Vancouver:
C - Brandon Sutter $4.36 (retain $1.25)
LW - Tim Schaller $1.90
LD - Olli Juolevi $0.863

Boston:
LD - John Moore $2.75
LW - Danton Heinen $0.873
LD - Jakub Zboril $0.863

Replace Sutter and put Eriksson in the trade instead and Id be down. If they really want Sutter than Id want at least a 2nd round pick back

 

[Coach Parker]

Replace Sutter and put Eriksson in the trade instead and Id be down. If they really want Sutter than Id want at least a 2nd round pick back

They don't want Sutter, the Canucks fan offered Sutter in a deal to unload his contract because Gaudette is ready to take that role at a fraction of the price. Same goes for trying to unload Eriksson and his bad contract. Hockey trades involving young prospects/elc players from two fanbases always start as a one for one then the fanbases trash the other teams players and overhype their own and then add in cap dumps to get their prospects for some reason.

 

[Cogburn]

Even with the massive con job a few Bruins fans are trying to pull, we have 0 (zero) interest in moving Virtanen. He brings things no one else does on our roster.

Any move selling Juolevi would be an error, as his value is at an all time low.

You can have Sutter for a song though, of you're interested.

 

[GoodbyeLuongo]

I see the ceiling higher for Horvat and the need to try different RWers that are young, on ELC contracts and have scored before as the key here moving forward. The secondary scoring will come in Vancouver once the right RWer is found for Horvat. He is capable of an 82 point season with the right help.

I think most objective Canucks fans see the need for a secondary scorer but also realize the team doesn't have the young prospects or NHL calibre players that another team would covet outside of the guys they are building around. No one wants Granlund or Goldobin. Thank god Goldie has a friendship and some chemistry with EP40 because if he didn't I think he'd be waived/ in the AHL awhile ago despite some members of the Vancouver media's high hopes for him (Price, lol).

Vancouver has one of the top prospect systems in the league. There’s more young talent than the big three and Hughes.

 

[Coach Parker]

Vancouver has one of the top prospect systems in the league. There’s more young talent than the big three and Hughes.

Gaudette, Hughes, EP40, Boeser, Horvat, the three goalies. I also like Woo and Lind. All of these guys we'd both agree are part of the future and along with the 1st round pick (and any other draft picks this year) aren't available. They are part of the future in Vancouver.

It's the current NHL talent on the roster outside of these guys that I believe don't hold much value at all to other teams. Goldobin can't even keep in the lineup. Same for Baertschi. Virtanen was sat before the break but I believe that was Green's tough love approach and wanting him to get back to playing a more determined game.

Do you as a fan see Sven, Goldobin or Virtanen as the real solid answer on Horvat's line? Or are they stopgaps until a legitimate winger or prospect emerges?

 

[zcaptain]

They don't want Sutter, the Canucks fan offered Sutter in a deal to unload his contract because Gaudette is ready to take that role at a fraction of the price. Same goes for trying to unload Eriksson and his bad contract. Hockey trades involving young prospects/elc players from two fanbases always start as a one for one then the fanbases trash the other teams players and overhype their own and then add in cap dumps to get their prospects for some reason.

The problem Coach Parker is, they actually don't see our guys that often......it is 10 pm before the puck drops for 1/2 their viewing...…...I think I can give them some insight of who we would trade...it is a small list IMO

Sutter...…………..decent defensive forward, no hands, can play multiple positions, decent a Face Offs
Trade value: late 2nd. With cap retention 2nd+3rd

Granlund...…….. decent defensive forward...decent hands, can play multiple positions
Trade value: late 3rd. With cap retention 3rd + 7th

Schaller...………...I honestly have not seen a good shift from him, can't say what he does well, if anything
Trade Value: with Cap retention 5th

Pouliot...………….Plays both side, usually for both teams...….opinion playoff depth......AHL
Trade Value: with retention 5th


That is about it.....really!

PS...…..Goldobin has good value....not 1st round value, but he isn't going anywhere until we figure out what is happening with Baertschi...…...who I actually wanted to trade earlier in the year, but that's another story.
Note: Goldobin was a ranked prospect 2 years ago, and he earned a FT spot this year(not quite FT), but some of his piers that were ranked and still are on the lists, have not made it to the NHL.....so go figure! So don't be saying he doesn't have decent value........ignore the Trolls.