Confirmed Trade: [VAN/CGY] Elias Lindholm for Andrei Kuzmenko, Hunter Brzustewicz, Joni Jurmo, 2024 1st, cond. 2024 4th

[DJJones]

Are we actually going to pretend he's not exclusively started in the offensive zone? I mean he's got skill, no question. There's also no question he's a bottom 3 player in the entire league defensively.

Then why are his stats saying otherwise? I've seen plenty of bad effort wingers where I've screamed at the TV. Haven't had that with him.

Like quick google says he starts 23.7% of the time. Which is where Drouin, Caufield, Skinner types are as well. You can score a goal, you get offensive starts. That's just how it is. No one's expecting him to play a shutdown game on Backlunds line.

 

[HairyKneel]

PK and faceoffs are his 2 elite attributes. He's pretty good defensively even though analytics don't love his defensive game. He's got some offense, he can forecheck. Basically he has no weaknesses.

I do think he's still going to get paid this offseason though. Does Vancouver want him for 6-7M for 7 years? I think that's the number.

That’s too rich. 5.8 x 5 maybe. Someone will pay him more. As long as he helps this team have a deep run it’s win win for both Western Canadian teams.

 

[Double Dion]

Then why are his stats saying otherwise? I've seen plenty of bad effort wingers where I've screamed at the TV. Haven't had that with him.

Like quick google says he starts 23.7% of the time. Which is where Drouin, Caufield, Skinner types are as well. You can score a goal, you get offensive starts. That's just how it is. No one's expecting him to play a shutdown game on Backlunds line.

He started 80% of the time in the offensive zone. They keep him away from all but the softest competition. His defensive point share is 0.2, less than half of Huberdeau who is the next lowest on our team. Despite the heavy shelter he's still giving up 3.5 goals against per 60 at 5 on 5. He's possibly the worst defensive player to ever play for the Flames and we had Kent Nilsson at one point.

That’s too rich. 5.8 x 5 maybe. Someone will pay him more. As long as he helps this team have a deep run it’s win win for both Western Canadian teams.

Someone will definitely pay him more. There are basically him and Monahan for centers who can play top 9 on the market this year. I wouldn't be shocked at all if the deal is over 50M for him. In fact I'd be more surprised if it's under that.

 

[HighLifeMan]

He started 80% of the time in the offensive zone. They keep him away from all but the softest competition. His defensive point share is 0.2, less than half of Huberdeau who is the next lowest on our team. Despite the heavy shelter he's still giving up 3.5 goals against per 60 at 5 on 5. He's possibly the worst defensive player to ever play for the Flames and we had Kent Nilsson at one point.

Stop with the hyperbole dude.

His GA/60 at five on five in Calgary was 2.48 which is very respectable. The 3.5 was his even strength GA/60, and Naturalstattrick's "even strength" totals include TOI with the goaltender pulled, so the 7 goals against in the 13:22 he played with an empty net raised his GA/60 at "even strength" by over a goal.

 

[Double Dion]

Stop with the hyperbole dude.

His GA/60 at five on five in Calgary was 2.48 which is very respectable. The 3.5 was his even strength GA/60, and Naturalstattrick's "even strength" totals include TOI with the goaltender pulled, so the 7 goals against in the 13:22 he played with an empty net raised his GA/60 at "even strength" by over a goal.

I see you're actually correct on the 5 on 5 stat. It was an honest mistake. It's shocking to me his time spent with an empty net amounts to a full goal per 60 difference but I see it does.

I don't believe my point is wrong or hyperbolic. I genuinely think Kuzmenko is the worst defensive player in the NHL and one of the worst I've ever seen, likely 2nd after Ribeiro.

 

[HighLifeMan]

I see you're actually correct on the 5 on 5 stat. It was an honest mistake. It's shocking to me his time spent with an empty net amounts to a full goal per 60 difference but I see it does.

I don't believe my point is wrong or hyperbolic. I genuinely think Kuzmenko is the worst defensive player in the NHL and one of the worst I've ever seen, likely 2nd after Ribeiro.

Fair enough. I obviously don't agree, but at least you are consistent in your opinion of the player, haha.

 

[Double Dion]

Fair enough. I obviously don't agree, but at least you are consistent in your opinion of the player, haha.

I'm just a believer that two way forwards are the critical pieces to winning. I see Mikael Backlund as a better and more impactful player than Kuzmenko. I don't think you win with guys who just put up numbers and I think they get exposed in road playoff games. Not that we have to worry about those for the next 4-5 years.

 

[CF84]

I'm just a believer that two way forwards are the critical pieces to winning. I see Mikael Backlund as a better and more impactful player than Kuzmenko. I don't think you win with guys who just put up numbers and I think they get exposed in road playoff games. Not that we have to worry about those for the next 4-5 years.

You also don't win with a pile of Backlunds who can't put the puck in the net as often. A good team is balanced and a player who can single-handedly resurrect a terrible power play is a part of that balance.

A PP full of Backlunds would be horrible.

 

[Double Dion]

You also don't win with a pile of Backlunds who can't put the puck in the net as often. A good team is balanced and a player who can single-handedly resurrect a terrible power play is a part of that balance.

A PP full of Backlunds would be horrible.

A team full of Backlunds would win the cup every year. He's a 40 to 55 point player. That's still solid offense. Who was the last team to win a cup that didn't have an excellent 2 way center? Hasn't happened in decades. 79 Habs would be the last one and they had a ridiculous amount of offense.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Who was the last team to win a cup that didn't have an excellent 2 way center? Hasn't happened in decades. 79 Habs would be the last one and they had a ridiculous amount of offense.

I’m not sure how far back you’d actually have to go to answer this question, but Jacques Lemaire was a great two-way center for the 79 Habs.

 

[norrisnick]

I’m not sure how far back you’d actually have to go to answer this question, but Jacques Lemaire was a great two-way center for the 79 Habs.

Also, with Gainey around, who cares what the centers do defensively?

 

[Kshahdoo]

It looks like Pettersson is very depressed without his friend Kuzmenko...

 

[Double Dion]

I’m not sure how far back you’d actually have to go to answer this question, but Jacques Lemaire was a great two-way center for the 79 Habs.

He wasn't really anymore in 1979. His boots were gone. Kinda like Francis was at one point a great defensive C, but not his last couple of years.

 

[tarheelhockey]

He wasn't really anymore in 1979. His boots were gone. Kinda like Francis was at one point a great defensive C, but not his last couple of years.

Not that he was the best defensive forward by that time, but Lemaire was absolutely a great two-way player even till his last couple of years. That was the peak of his offensive production, and he was the defensive conscience that allowed Lafleur and Shutt to chase opportunities on offense. There’s a whole lot of praise for his two-way game during that period.

If we’re not calling Lemaire an excellent two-way center, then we need to back up and ask who are we counting as the great two-way center on e.g. Vegas last year, Colorado the year before that, etc.

 

[Jay26]

It looks like Pettersson is very depressed without his friend Kuzmenko...

Just like he was depressed without his friends Markstrom, Tanev and Toffoli. Who knows if it's actually true that he sulks whenever he doesn't like a move management makes but if it is we know he'll never be a winner.

 

[Double Dion]

Not that he was the best defensive forward by that time, but Lemaire was absolutely a great two-way player even till his last couple of years. That was the peak of his offensive production, and he was the defensive conscience that allowed Lafleur and Shutt to chase opportunities on offense. There’s a whole lot of praise for his two-way game during that period.

If we’re not calling Lemaire an excellent two-way center, then we need to back up and ask who are we counting as the great two-way center on e.g. Vegas last year, Colorado the year before that, etc.

I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. Lemaire was a great defensive player. He wasn't his last 2 seasons. Like Francis was a great defensive center and wasn't in his time in Carolina anymore.

Steve Shutt at that time was a much better defensive player in those end years than Lemaire btw. One of the most underrated players ever.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. Lemaire was a great defensive player. He wasn't his last 2 seasons. Like Francis was a great defensive center and wasn't in his time in Carolina anymore.

Steve Shutt at that time was a much better defensive player in those end years than Lemaire btw. One of the most underrated players ever.

Again I’m not sure what you mean by “great” here. Lemaire was absolutely an elite defensive player in 1979. Was he Bobby Clarke or Bob Gainey, no. But he was still among the top handful of centers in the NHL in terms of contributing at both ends of the ice. He PK’ed, he played the clear cut defensive role on his line, he led his team in points — he was an excellent two way centerman.

If you’re saying he wasn’t good enough to meet the standard for “excellent 2 way center”, then who on 2023 Vegas was better? 2022 Colorado? 2019 Washington? Even, dare I say it, who was a better two-way center than Jaques Lemaire on Tampa’s Cup teams?

 

[Double Dion]

Again I’m not sure what you mean by “great” here. Lemaire was absolutely an elite defensive player in 1979. Was he Bobby Clarke or Bob Gainey, no. But he was still among the top handful of centers in the NHL in terms of contributing at both ends of the ice. He PK’ed, he played the clear cut defensive role on his line, he led his team in points — he was an excellent two way centerman.

If you’re saying he wasn’t good enough to meet the standard for “excellent 2 way center”, then who on 2023 Vegas was better? 2022 Colorado? 2019 Washington? Even, dare I say it, who was a better two-way center than Jaques Lemaire on Tampa’s Cup teams?

Wild Bill for Vegas, Kadri and Compher for Colorado, Backstrom for Washington. I'm wondering how old you are if you think Lemaire was a great defensive center in 1979. He absolutely wasn't. Gainey was, but he wasn't good offensively. Eichel also played that way during the playoff run for Vegas even though he wasn't a good defensive C in the regular season.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I'm wondering how old you are if you think Lemaire was a great defensive center in 1979.

I definitely wasn’t analyzing Lemaire‘s game in 1979, but I trust people who were.

Speaking for management, coach Scotty Bowman had this to say about Lemaire…: “Really, Jacques has always been underrated — but not by us. … He’s so strong defensively. He’s one of those guys like Bobby Clarke — a real two-way player. A goal against bothers Lemaire more than anything else.

Asked if he thought Lemaire was a better hockey player today than when his big, booming shot brought him those 44 goals five seasons ago, Bowman replied: “Oh yeah, there’s no question about that. He’s playing much better hockey today. But he was playing mostly left wing in those days, eh? He’s better at centre because of his defensive ability.”

Lemaire scored twice and, according to Bowman, “played the best game, offense and defense combined, that I have ever seen him play.”

Perreault only managed one shot on goal… Bowman, who often shifts his lines around during a game, has played Lemaire against Perreault before but usually he has a checking line against the Sabres’ super center.

In an age when specialists rule the world of sports, Jacques Lemaire is something of an anochronism. All-around players are a vanishing breed.

“He’s just a complete player,” says coach Scotty Bowman.

“He’s just a very good two-way hockey player, probably our best two-way player,” added goalie Ken Dryden. “He’s been that way for four or five years.”

“It is the sort of specialist people talk about all the time: the defensive specialists, the offensive specialists, the face-off specialists, or the specialists who kill penalties or block shots. Jacques is the kind of player who does all those things and who allows the specialists to thrive.”
…
It was Lemaire’s defensive talents that prompted Bowman to unite him with Shutt and Lafleur in November 1976.
…
Lafleur and Shutt have been the chief benefactors of Lemaire’s move to their line.

“Me and Steve play offence all the time,” Lafleur explained, “and it makes it a lot easier when you have someone like Jacques backing you up.”

Lemaire appeared in 50 regular season games for the Canadiens last season after being hampered by injuries. He still managed 24 goals and added 31 assists and played a strong two-way role with the championship club in the latter part of the season and throughout the playoffs.

”Lemaire meant a lot to Lafleur and Shutt but his true value seemed to surface in the playoffs. Not that he paced himself but he knew how to rise to the occasion. Mondu played there when Lemaire was hurt last season. But Mondu is not the defensive player Lemaire is, he does not kill penalties like Lemaire did. Lemaire will be very difficult to replace because of his influence on the line and his ability to play both ways.”

Lemaire centres a line with the mighty Lafleur and Steve Shutt on the flanks, a trio of enormous speed and skill. But that’s just part of his contribution to the team. …

He kills penalties. He’s one of the best in the NHL on the power play. His speed allows him to open up opposition defences. Maybe Lemaire isn’t the big scorer he was expected to be, but the Maple Leafs would be difficult to convince.

Jacques Lemaire just might be the best two-way hockey player in the world. Certainly, if one were to name the top few, Lemaire’s name would be among them.

 

[Double Dion]

I definitely wasn’t analyzing Lemaire‘s game in 1979, but I trust people who were.

People said the same thing about Ron Francis late in his career. Reputation lives longer than reality for most players. Peca won a Selke trophy in a year where he was well below average defensively. Kopitar is still viewed as an elite defensive player and hasn't been for 2-3 years now.

 

[gach]

Lindholm 1.0 gpg for Canucks in playoffs so far

Update .5 gpg

 

[Siludin]

Update .5 gpg

Absolutely pitiful

 

[TheNumber4]

Should be able to close the book on this fleecing pretty soon here.

Not that I needed to wait, I knew Lindholm was extremely overrated before the trade.

 

[Three On Zero]

Lindholm has done well since returning from injury. Even with hindsight I would still make this trade and just hope he doesn't get hurt again.

 

[Double Dion]

Should be able to close the book on this fleecing pretty soon here.

Not that I needed to wait, I knew Lindholm was extremely overrated before the trade.

Man it's a sad existence in that Northern waste land you live in. Even during the happiest moments of your life you can't rein in the jealousy and disappointment.