Confirmed Trade: [VAN/CGY] Elias Lindholm for Andrei Kuzmenko, Hunter Brzustewicz, Joni Jurmo, 2024 1st, cond. 2024 4th

[Peter Griffin]

Dunno. And these are pre-trade.

Post-trade, Lindholm has been junk, while Kuzmenko has been great.

Add the picks and the prospects, and this is nothing short of a fleecing.

Did you watch Kuzmenko play at all this year for the Canucks? Do you think he was going to magically buy into Tocchet’s system? I’m guessing since you’re posting JFresh cards to make your point, that says everything I need to know.

I’ve addressed the trade value, that’s not the point here.

 

[Mad Dog Tannen]

Did you watch Kuzmenko play at all this year for the Canucks? Do you think he was going to magically buy into Tocchet’s system? I’m guessing since you’re posting JFresh cards to make your point, that says everything I need to know.

I’ve addressed the trade value, that’s not the point here.

Hahahaha

Ignores stats - but did you watch him with the Canucks?

Oh mercy. The cope is strong with nucks fans.

Defense is literally the easiest thing to fix in a players game.

 

[Peter Griffin]

Hahahaha

Ignores stats - but did you watch him with the Canucks?

Stats or JFresh cards which are akin to the “… For Dummies” books?

Oh mercy. The cope is strong with nucks fans.

Defense is literally the easiest thing to fix in a players game.

And yet Kuzmenko couldn’t be bothered to learn. You literally have Flames fans in this thread saying that Kuzmenko, even when scoring, is a deeply flawed player. I’d take Lindholm for this playoff run 10 times out of 10 over the Kuzmenko that refused to buy in to Tocchet’s system like the rest of his teammates. You’re weirdly invested in this discussion.

 

[Mad Dog Tannen]

Stats or JFresh cards which are akin to the “… For Dummies” books?

And yet Kuzmenko couldn’t be bothered to learn. You literally have Flames fans in this thread saying that Kuzmenko, even when scoring, is a deeply flawed player. You’re weirdly invested in this discussion.

I’m just enjoying this ride brother. So many more thread bumps to come!

It’s entertaining to watch and read the cope. 3rd line shut down centre with none of the expected offence cost a 1st, a 40 goal scorer (I know it’s 39 - ya got me) and 2 prospects. Makes sense for a defensive 3rd line C. This is exactly how Vancouver wanted it to go! lol.

 

[Peter Griffin]

I’m just enjoying this ride brother. So many more thread bumps to come!

View attachment 852838

It’s entertaining to watch and read the cope. 3rd line shut down centre with none of the expected offence cost a 1st, a 40 goal scorer (I know it’s 39 - ya got me) and 2 prospects. Makes sense for a defensive 3rd line C. This is exactly how Vancouver wanted it to go! lol.

View attachment 852839

Who’s saying this is what Vancouver expected? Zero Canucks’ fans are saying they’re happy with this trade but keep trolling.

 

[Mad Dog Tannen]

Who’s saying this is what Vancouver expected? Zero Canucks’ fans are saying they’re happy with this trade but keep trolling.

Zero?

 

[Killer Orcas]

Let's be honest if Lindholm had played or jelled as well as we thought he would here this be a nothing burger. Everyone knew Kuz could score but he didn't fit in the system here Tocchet wanted. Now does it look like a fleecing now sure but Lindholm could still make us forget the deal with a solid playoff performance. Wish Kuz the best awesome personality was really well liked here.

 

[viper0220]

Watch him go off in the playoffs and be very good.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Lol, you're kinda weird, there are tons of examples when assistant coaches became HCs and failed miserably, like really a lot of examples.

I’m watching it happen live every game with Lalonde, who apparently doesn’t know as a head coach you’re allowed to call timeouts and pull the goalies.

 

[UrbanImpact]

Flames fans going through the same thing Van fans went through last year. Kuzy is the king of stepping up in meaningless games that only makes the team's draft picks worse. He owns bottom dwellig teams...check out his career stats vs Anehim and San Jose etc...

Canucks was in this roller coaster last year too.

Then when this season started and games "mattered" he was out of shape, no compete, and his idea of backchecking was beaver tapping his stick and hoping he tricks the opponent to passing him the puck.

Very happy to Kuzy tho, i hope CGY re-signs him long term. Hes got a great personality and always smiling.

 

[gianni]

Canucks fans are genuinely happy for Andrei Kuzmenko & hope the Flames give him a big money extension this summer. Him choosing Vancouver as a UFA & having a great rookie season was a pleasant surprise. When the Canucks brought in a new coaching staff, expectations and playing style changed.

Not to bash Kuzmenko, but him not executing the team's system led to collapses in play & additional scoring chances for the opposing team. He was benched numerous times in favor of depth players & AHL call-ups that were able to play within the system; a system that's helped in comeback victories.

With local media making Kuzy's struggles a focal point, and an agent that goes to bat for his clients, the whole situation could've become a distraction if a deal wasn't made soon. Imo, that's a huge factor nobody discusses when evaluating the trade (along w/ clearing cap space for this summer). For a team that was first in the league for most of the season, it would've been dumb to wait things out and let the situation become toxic/take away from the team.

 

[krutovsdonut]

as a canuck fan, the canucks have obviously lost this trade unless lindholm has an outstanding playoffs. between the injury and the uninspired timid play lindholm has been very underwhelming. you can see the talent and in the last game you actually saw some effort, but mostly he has massively underperformed.

but flames fans dunking on the canucks for moving kuzmenko is pathetic. it was canuck fans arguing he was valuable before he was traded, and flames and other fans calling him a worthless cap dump. you don't get to have your cake and eat it. either you were headless chickens then or now. choose wisely.

if kuzmenko can hang in a top 6 in meaningful hockey then that is definitely a win for the flames. he's certainly proven he can score in garbage time for bad teams two years running. it's exactly the win/win i was pitching before he was traded, and which other team fans were deriding in kuzmenko threadss. i was really surprised he went as a neutral cap dump. i thought pittsburgh should have taken him in a guentzel deal. teams as well as fans were sleeping on the guy.

and if hunter works out it is a home run for the flames.

but there is some short term pragmatic silver lining to the canucksas consolation. kuzmenko could not play tochett hockey and he was so out of step he was disruptiv e and did not deserve to be in the lineup for the canucks. lindholm is a respectable middle 6 player who can play system hockeyt even without any point production. as a playoff team that is a lot more useful than the assets we gave up. so in the short term the team is better. in the long term this could be worse than the baertschi trade. ah well.

 

[dgibb10]

Dunno. And these are pre-trade.

Post-trade, Lindholm has been junk, while Kuzmenko has been great.

Add the picks and the prospects, and this is nothing short of a fleecing.

A significant lack of understanding of what goes into these models. This tells a story of kuzmenko being a significantly worse hockey player propped up by a ridiculously high shooting%.

 

[ijuka]

A significant lack of understanding of what goes into these models. This tells a story of kuzmenko being a significantly worse hockey player propped up by a ridiculously high shooting%.

Okay, so should we take a look at Lindholm's significant advanced stats then? Or what do you mean. Lindholm's xGF% relative is -8.42 meaning that he's been a massive negative influence. Kuzmenko's is +1.43 meaning that he's been a slight positive influence.

Or which of us is the one who has a lack of understanding?

 

[Bounces R Way]

A significant lack of understanding of what goes into these models. This tells a story of kuzmenko being a significantly worse hockey player propped up by a ridiculously high shooting%.

These models demonstrate a significant lack of understanding of what goes on on the ice.

 

[theoptimist]

He'll be a Devil on July 1

 

[Bond]

I hope Lindholm scores five tonight on the Flames. They are playing for the 11th overall pick for some reason lol

 

[dgibb10]

Okay, so should we take a look at Lindholm's significant advanced stats then? Or what do you mean. Lindholm's xGF% relative is -8.42 meaning that he's been a massive negative influence. Kuzmenko's is +1.43 meaning that he's been a slight positive influence.

Or which of us is the one who has a lack of understanding?

Lindholm has been bad this year. He plays an incredibly difficult defensive role, but he has certainly struggled this year. Centers are tough to find tho and the market was brutal this year, (my favourite on the market was Henrique)

But Kuzmenko, with his incredibly offense focused utilization and linemates, has done nothing special outside of shoot at a ridiculous rate.

I still would much rather take Lindholm going into a playoff series, and wouldn't offer kuzmenko 5.5 mill if he was a UFA.

 

[Ace of Hades]

Who’s saying this is what Vancouver expected? Zero Canucks’ fans are saying they’re happy with this trade but keep trolling.

I don't know why a Jets fan of all fans is this invested in this thread.

It's pretty sad.

 

[dgibb10]

These models demonstrate a significant lack of understanding of what goes on on the ice.

If you don't know how to read them sure. Advanced analytics paint a picture, just like box score stats.

They go deeper in terms of the smaller, harder to track stuff and help provide more insight into what is going on.

Now of course, a truly unbiased tracking of a player through every shift would be better (similar to what PFF does for football), but since the only people watching that much are biased fans of the teams, who are heavily influenced by larger results rather than the underlying stuff behind it (for example if a team is shooting 20% with a guy on the ice and his goaltender has a 0.950 save% with him on the ice, a fan will forget most of that players defensive lapses, since the goaltender made the save, and they didn't show a replay, and will remember much more of his good offensive plays, since he got lucky enough to have them result in goals they replay 6 times, rather than a missed net that is forgotten within 10 seconds).

And so generally I would trust the in depth stats to paint the picture rather than a biased fanbase. I do tend to somewhat trust what fanbases say when comparing players to other players also on their team, although a check to see if the on ice shooting/save%s may be skewing perception somewhat.

 

[HighLifeMan]

The discrediting of what Kuzmenko is doing is hilarious. He's an offensive player who has produced great offensive results for all but 2 months of his two year NHL career.

People do realize that most if not all high end point producers in the league get sheltered five on five starts, right? Panarin is sitting at damn near 90% o-zone starts for crying out loud. There is roles in this league for all types of players and skillsets. Kuzmenko may have certain deficiencies to his game like the vast majority of NHL players do in some regard, but there is no evidence to suggest that he's this massive liability defensively that many shoehorn him as. Additionally he has single handedly turned the Flames PP from a 26th ranked unit, to a top 10 unit after his arrival. He's a dangerous and creative threat.

Lindholm has been and continues to be a liability given his role this season. I don't know what the hell is up with him whether it be injury, off-ice problems, a mental block or simply contract uncertainties causing issues but this is not the player we have seen for the past six seasons. Vancouver took a risk that he'd return to form and he simply hasn't. The good thing for them is that there is still time for him to do so at the most important time of the year, but I wouldn't count on it based on what we have all seen this season.

Either way the situation couldn't have worked out any better for the Flames here, which is nice to say after all of the misfortune and miscalculations the organization has endured over the past few seasons.

 

[Peter Griffin]

That’s not the argument most Canucks’ fans are making. He wasn’t a fit in Tocchet’s system, wasn’t buying in and was scratched multiple times with no improvement. It was unlikely he was going to bounce back in those circumstances. The way he was playing, and with Tocchet having no trust in the player, wasn’t conducive of him being a guy that could be relied on during crunch time.

Will be interesting to see how Kuzmenko looks this time next year.

 

[Rowlet]

That’s not the argument most Canucks’ fans are making. He wasn’t a fit in Tocchet’s system, wasn’t buying in and was scratched multiple times with no improvement. It was unlikely he was going to bounce back in those circumstances. The way he was playing, and with Tocchet having no trust in the player, wasn’t conducive of him being a guy that could be relied on during crunch time.

Will be interesting to see how Kuzmenko looks this time next year.

Not to mention that a lot of the Canucks core players came to Vancouver early to practice hard and get ready for the season while Kuzmenko didn't train at all, and went to Bali for the summer.

 

[Yepthatsme]

That’s not the argument most Canucks’ fans are making. He wasn’t a fit in Tocchet’s system, wasn’t buying in and was scratched multiple times with no improvement. It was unlikely he was going to bounce back in those circumstances. The way he was playing, and with Tocchet having no trust in the player, wasn’t conducive of him being a guy that could be relied on during crunch time.

Will be interesting to see how Kuzmenko looks this time next year.

I’m not arguing with those Canucks fans, I’m arguing with the ones saying he can’t play playoff hockey, only produces in meaningless games, disappears against good teams etc.

He was a terrible fit for his coach, that’s pretty much it. Some fans are pretty much toddlers trying to fit a square block in a round hole and blaming the block for it not working.

 

[Double Dion]

Stats or JFresh cards which are akin to the “… For Dummies” books?

And yet Kuzmenko couldn’t be bothered to learn. You literally have Flames fans in this thread saying that Kuzmenko, even when scoring, is a deeply flawed player. I’d take Lindholm for this playoff run 10 times out of 10 over the Kuzmenko that refused to buy in to Tocchet’s system like the rest of his teammates. You’re weirdly invested in this discussion.

I agree with you more than my fellow Flames fan here. The thing that makes me happy with the trade is not Kuzmenko. It's not the 1st round pick. It's Brzustewicz. I'm more excited about him than any Flames prospect except for Wolf. I think he's going to be a #2/#3 defenseman for us for a decade.