Mosby
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Speculation: Utah working to trade Michael Carcone
- Thread starter Mosby
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- May 17, 2011
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Maybe, would depend on if NYI thinks Carcone moves the needle at all.
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biturbo19
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I mean, he's not "soft" by any means. But "winning fights" is very possibly, the single most useless ability in the NHL.
Fights aren't about "winning" or "losing" and they're rarely that conclusive either way. They're about showing up. Which is a notable positive tick for Carcone. He definitely isn't "soft".
He's just tiny. And when it comes to actually working the corners and boxing guys out and doing hockey, his "sneaky right hook" or whatever doesn't mean squat. Because fundamentally, big people beat up small people...and he just isn't strong enough to overcome that issue when he wants to go somewhere a bigger defender doesn't want him to go...or vice versa.
rt
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So to sum all this up, it would be better for Michael Carcone if he was bigger. Yes, it sure would.
biturbo19
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It would be significantly better if he were a little bit taller. If he was more of a baller. etc. Yes.
SoundAndFury
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rt
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Carcone for Fabbro seems like it makes some sense. Preds could use a little bit of a shake up. Fabbro seems to be on borrowed time and obviously needs a change of scenery. Carcone has SOMETHING to offer but can’t get into the lineup in Utah. Carcone is a bit older but is much cheaper. And both are kind of one year band-aid/dice-rolls. It would be a fairly “meh” trade but might give each team just a little bit of what they could use more of.
biturbo19
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Not that Fabbro is any good, but he's a #4/5 tweener RHD. What is Carcone that he'd be worth that at all in return? Worst case for Nashville...they just hang onto Fabbro and he's one of like 3 RHD on the "market" at the deadline and fetches a haul even if he's not that good. He's on a cheap contract too.
What's Carcone do for anybody at the deadline? So unless you're planning on Carcone being a part of your team long-term, what's the point? There's a reason Utah ain't working that hard to find a way to keep him and make him a part of the organization's long-term plans.
rt
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Fabbro is barely playing and has a 2.5aav cap hit. 4/5 tweener? He’s playing 13:06 per game this season as Nashville’s 7th D. A full minute and a half below Schenn, who’s their 6th D. Fabbro has been a healthy scratch in 40% of the games they’ve played.
Granted, that’s a small sample. We can add last season into the mix too. Adding in last season, he drops to 8th in average ice time per game among Nashville D. Drop MDG if you want (only 13gp) and Fabbro sits 7th. Add in the season before that and he drops to 9th. Filter out guys with less than 20gp and he’s 7th.
What is his value? A 3rd rounder? Ok, then Carcone and a 3rd for Fabbro. Throw in Bortuzzo who they can waive and bury for depth in the AHL.
You realize the majority of trades don’t involve players viewed as long-term core pieces. Utah just traded a 3rd for Maatta. It happens more often than not. Neither Fabbro nor Carcone are core players for anyone. Nashville isn’t using Fabbro and Utah isn’t using Carcone.
Utah needs some help on D. Fabbro might help a tiny bit or might end up scratched a bunch. Nashville has the 3rd worst GF/GP in the league this season and they’re tied for last in the league for points. Carcone might help a tiny bit or might end up scratched a bunch.
I don’t think either player is worth more than a 3rd. I’d probably add a 3rd to Carcone to get Fabbro because Utah is in a bad spot on the blueline with such major, long term injuries. Spaghetti at the wall mentality.
I understand that Carcone will likely never have another season as good as the one he had last season. But I also understand that Fabbro will likely never have a season like that either. I’d say it’s 50/50 that Carcone starts next camp on a PTO with a new team while Fabbro ends up with a 1yr, 1mil show me deal with a new team.
rt
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biturbo19
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I mean, i get that Utah really need a defenceman right now. Even with spending a pick on Maatta. But from a Nashville perspective, if all they're gonna get for Fabbro is a throwaway like Carcone and a 3rd round pick, what's the point? What's the "risk" in just keeping him until the deadline and dealing him for that, or more?
He's just not that good. But he's an NHL RH shooting defenceman. He's still only 26 and he's played Top-4 minutes with stellar partners before under different coaches/systems. What is Carcone adding to the Predators that is better than just waiting for the deadline idiocy and desperation to materialize? That's a skillset teams will stretch themselves on. They'll convince themselves it's just, "Brunette hates him and he's underutilized" which may or may not even be true...but it's at least plausible.
The idea that Carcone is going to be a piece for a contending team, or even an NHL team going forward beyond this season...is implausible.
What you're suggesting is essentially...Fabbro for a 3rd round pick. Maybe that's not so far off the mark given what Liljegren just moved for. But i'd argue there are a lot of reasons for the Preds to just hang onto Fabbro, even if their coach doesn't like him and doesn't want to play him...and try to pawn him off at the deadline and probably net something better than a 3rd.
rt
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The point is (as Ive said more than once now) Fabbro isn’t likely to return more than around a 3rd round pick in value. And Nashville is last in the league in points and 3rd worst in goals. Carcone had 21 goals last season and Nashville isn’t using Fabbro at all. As Trotz publicly stated he wants to make a trade but is finding this is a difficult time of the season to find a deal. They need a change.
It’s not. Just ask Brad Treliving who got about a 3rd rounder for Liljegren. Teams don’t overpay for six foot nothing soft defenders who don’t produce points. That’s not a thing. You’ve said it is several times, but it’s not.
That’s hyperbolic is what that is. He’s unlikely to score 21 goals in an NHL season again. But you’re attempting to use a crystal ball and it shows.
And Carcone. Who is worth at least a 4th. He had 21 goals last season, is 28 years old, plays the right way, has no known off ice issues and has a cap hit under a million. That’s actually an extremely rare thing.
I’m well aware of the fact that he’s being healthy scratched regularly, had an unsustainable shooting percentage last season, and doesn’t hold the value of a typical 20 goal scorer making under a million. As I’ve said. Several times. I suspect Colorado would give up a 3rd or 4th for him.
Carcone and a 3rd is a better return. Fabbro’s cap hit is a bit better, but he’s also older and his upside is lower. Utah is just more leveraged than San Jose, so it’s close.
biturbo19
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You're fallaciously assuming that Nashville's dire situation has...well...any effect on the value of the player. The "seller" (in this instance it's the Preds) in a "sellers market" that is already setting up for the deadline many months out as scarce in RHD available...has the value determined by what the "buyers" are willing to pay.
It's highly unlikely that Fabbro is going to be worth less than a 3rd round pick at the deadline. So that disincentivizes the idea of moving him now for that. The upside is, he's worth more than a 3rd round pick. The only real risk to hedge against is injury. Which...if he's only sometimes playing, is even furthered lessened.
Liljegren is a similar defenceman, though younger with a more positive trajectory at least. And maybe that's what Fabbro is "worth". But if you're the Preds...what's the incentive to make that deal now? He's not expensive. He's an expiring contract (unlike Liljegren). As long as Fabbro is healthy, he'll be more valuable at the deadline.
He's 28 years old and he's scored points literally one time on a Yotes team that was basically just wasting time. He's not a "soft" player and he's not an "unskilled" player. But he's not enough of either to be worth...literally anything to anyone as an NHLer. There's a reason the Yetis are allegedly "trying to move him". If he was a guy you want to have as a player, he'd be a guy Utah wants to keep. But he's not.
That has no value to anyone beyond teams who are, similarly to the Yotes last year...basically just running out the clock on the season. Who can use a filler player who has a little bit of skill and can play some minutes and maybe score some goals in them at an unsustainable rate. But those sort of teams literally never pay anything to acquire guys. They have other teams pay them to take on contracts and filler, in exchange for depth players who have a defined "role" on playoff teams.
I mean...i don't think we fundamentally disagree that much about Fabbro as a player. It's just...a "3rd or 4th" right now is basically nothing. There's at least an outside chance that he's worth more than that at the deadline. Especially considering how bleak the market looks. It's absolutely shaping up to be that "sellers market" where teams get stupid.
I guess the idea that Carcone is worth...literally anything, is the bigger point of contention. I just don't see why any team would trade anything other than a "contract swap" or struggling prospect or "change of scenery" or whatever for him.
He's not a terrible player. He's just...not the sort of player that good teams tend to want. And bad teams don't tend to spend assets for filler players.
It's like...Klim Kostin is a kind of bad, frustrating player. He's not even necessarily any better than Carcone. But if they both cost the same minimum amount on the salary cap...Kostin is the guy a team would want.
Gurglesons
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Based on the salary discrepancy BA might need a 4th/5th thrown in but there's a deal there for sure.
Glorydays22
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