USA B Team vs Russia, Sweden, Finland and Czech Republic A Teams

[BOS358]

On PAPER the U.S. can ice a very credible "B" team that could challenge another top country's "A" team. Again, on PAPER.

Oh yes, on PAPER. But on ICE, the team would find a way to blow it, much like every other USA team in any senior-level competition since 1996.

 

[BOS358]

Just that the "B" team is still pretty competitive owing to national depth after the top 23 players.

If there were any depth, the "A" team could have grabbed at least one gold during the NHL Olympics or the World Cup.

Ultimately though I think the WCs are an exhibition of each country's "B" teams (with the North American teams more closer to their "C" teams) and well, the USA roundly gets romped at those tournaments.

All I know is that the USA has not won anything at the senior level since 1996 and should not be thought of as a hockey power until that changes. I hate saying this as an American, but the results, or lack thereof, speak for themselves.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

Given that you missed the point of my post, which was echoed by at least three other posters on this thread, I see no reason in repeating it again.

Lol, your point was there was only a handful of
very good players at that time. I pointed
out to you there were at least 2 more very good players
you omitted in Trouba and Trocheck along with at
that time a highly regarded Galchenyuk. Add Grezlyck as a #7 D and that team had depth in addition to elite talent.

Further just looking at that US B Team there are
not any remotely close to a WCC level players at all. You have strong Defensive dmen in Dumoulin and Eric Johnson and quality offensive dmen in Hughes and Petry.

I even omitted Ryan Suter on D for that B Team.
So lets add him.

Up front I opted to go with a theme of familiarity
instead of just picking on talent. So I opted to
include DeBrincat/Saad and leave off Parise and
Atkinson.

If Demko plays like he did in the 3 games against
Vegas, that US Team is 2-1 against Russia and
2-0 against Sweden and Finland. I'm not
such a homer as to think that happens, but
he is capable of performing well enough to
beat Sweden/Finland F corp.

Sweden has a great D corp no doubt but their
Forward corp is nothing special. In fact the
USA A Team forward corp is absolutely better.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

If there were any depth, the "A" team could have grabbed at least one gold during the NHL Olympics or the World Cup.



All I know is that the USA has not won anything at the senior level since 1996 and should not be thought of as a hockey power until that changes. I hate saying this as an American, but the results, or lack thereof, speak for themselves.

The 2014 US Olympic Team was absolutely good enough
to meet Canada in The Gold Medal Game.

They had the misfortune of meeting them in the
Semi-Finals. No doubt in my mind they would have beaten Finland or Sweden in the SF. It was obvious
they didn't care about playing for Bronze.

Would they have beaten Canada in a Gold Medal
Game? Unlikely as Team Canada was almost unbeatable.

 

[Boonk]

The 2014 US Olympic Team was absolutely good enough
to meet Canada in The Gold Medal Game.

They had the misfortune of meeting them in the
Semi-Finals. No doubt in my mind they would have beaten Finland or Sweden in the SF. It was obvious
they didn't care about playing for Bronze.

Would they have beaten Canada in a Gold Medal
Game? Unlikely as Team Canada was almost unbeatable.

They couldve but they didnt.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

If there were any depth, the "A" team could have grabbed at least one gold during the NHL Olympics or the World Cup.



All I know is that the USA has not won anything at the senior level since 1996 and should not be thought of as a hockey power until that changes. I hate saying this as an American, but the results, or lack thereof, speak for themselves.

Well, Russia has not won a true BEST ON BEST TOURNEY since 1981. Just one year later than
a US NCAA College All Star Team beat the supposed
greatest team of all time in USSR and a still
good Czechoslovakia Team.

That 1980 Team speaks to my tendency to go for
teammate familiarity up front. The 1980 Team
had 8 skaters that played together at
UMinn (9 counting the back up Janaszak),
4 players from BU who played together,
2 from BG, 2 from MD and 2 from
UW who played together. That was a huge
factor in them winning the Gold Medal.

Incidentally, the 1980 US Olympic Team
lost two HHOF, 3 out of their top 4 Dmen
1 of their 2 G and 2 more top 9 F who had
they gone the NCAA route and used their
remaining NCAA eligibility been on the US Team.
Want to see those missing pieces?

G - Baker

D - Langway - Roberts - Dunn

F - Mullen - Gorence

So the USA beat the greatest team of all time
in the USSR and a still quality Czechoslovakia
missing almost their entire top 4 D and
their most dynamic forward.

If the NHL had shutdown to go to Lake Placid
this probably should have been the US A Team

G - Lopresti Baker

D - Sargent - Larson - Langway - Roberts - Dunn
Brownschidle

C - Howe -Ftorek - Johnson - Christian

RW Holmgren - Rowe - Gorence - Mullen

LW Jensen - Fidler - Talafous -Bennett

So Johnson and Christian would have been the only
2 players from the 1980 US Gold Medal team to
make a 1980 USA NHL eligible Olympic Team.

So don't dismiss familiarity it was damn important
in 1980.

 

[Lambo]

The 2014 US Olympic Team was absolutely good enough
to meet Canada in The Gold Medal Game.

They had the misfortune of meeting them in the
Semi-Finals. No doubt in my mind they would have beaten Finland or Sweden in the SF. It was obvious
they didn't care about playing for Bronze.

Would they have beaten Canada in a Gold Medal
Game? Unlikely as Team Canada was almost unbeatable.

These are always these excuses. It is never certain that the US could beat Sweden or Finland in a semi-final.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

These are always these excuses. It is never certain that the US could beat Sweden or Finland in a semi-final.

They finished first in their group and looked good doing it. Sweden lost Sedin and Zetterberg by the Medal Round. If you played a 7 game series US-Sweden
with Sedin/Zetterberg out the US is absolutely
a favorite.

Finland would have been more of a challenge in a
Semifinal, but the US on D and upfront were better.
In 2014, Quick and Rask were basically a wash.

We all know the history of The Olympics with NA
teams playing for anything but Gold. The only exception
would be IMO any combo if USA-Canada-Russia.

 

[Boonk]

I see a lot of excuses but not a lot of results to back it up ​

 

[Lambo]

They finished first in their group and looked good doing it. Sweden lost Sedin and Zetterberg by the Medal Round. If you played a 7 game series US-Sweden
with Sedin/Zetterberg out the US is absolutely
a favorite.

Finland would have been more of a challenge in a
Semifinal, but the US on D and upfront were better.
In 2014, Quick and Rask were basically a wash.

We all know the history of The Olympics with NA
teams playing for anything but Gold. The only exception
would be IMO any combo if USA-Canada-Russia.

2006(Fin vs SWE), 1998(CZE vs RUS), 1994(CAN vs SWE) etc. The europeans playing for gold too.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

2006(Fin vs SWE), 1998(CZE vs RUS), 1994(CAN vs SWE) etc. The europeans playing for gold too.

I am talking specifically about 2014. Sweden was toast
w/o both Sedin/Zetterberg to legit win Gold.

All the Olympic best on best is extremely small
sample size, so you can get bad luck and
a dynasty type team (2014 Canada) at the same time.

For proof look at the record for the USA against
Czechoslovakia from the 1972 Olympics through
the 1984 Olympics 2-2.

In the Canada Cups of 1976-1984 the
USA sports a 2-0-1 record.

So Czechoslovakia is 2-2 against NCAA All-Stars
and 0-2-1 against USA NHL's. For a total of
2-4-1 or a winning percentage of 36%.

You really think the US was that much better
a hockey nation than Czechoslovakia from
1972-1984? IMO Czechoslovakia was a slightly
better hockey country. That's what small sample size
can do over long periods.

 

[Eye of Ra]

They finished first in their group and looked good doing it. Sweden lost Sedin and Zetterberg by the Medal Round. If you played a 7 game series US-Sweden
with Sedin/Zetterberg out the US is absolutely
a favorite.

Finland would have been more of a challenge in a
Semifinal, but the US on D and upfront were better.
In 2014, Quick and Rask were basically a wash.

We all know the history of The Olympics with NA
teams playing for anything but Gold. The only exception
would be IMO any combo if USA-Canada-Russia.

finland more of a challenge? you dont seem to know that sweden beat finland in the semifinal.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

finland more of a challenge? you dont seem to know that sweden beat finland in the semifinal.

I'm talking strictly for the USA.

 

[BOS358]

They couldve but they didnt.

If that team played Finland, maybe they could have won...but instead they got pasted 0-5.

 

[Boonk]

If that team played Finland, maybe they could have won...but instead they got pasted 0-5.

A lot of people don’t give that Finnish team enough credit. They had no Mikko Koivu, lost Barkov to injury early in the tournament, Rask was sick and couldn’t play in the Semis against Sweden, they beat the Russians on their turf, they took Canada to OT and still managed to win bronze.

 

[Hanji]

Well, Russia has not won a true BEST ON BEST TOURNEY since 1981. Just one year later than
a US NCAA College All Star Team beat the supposed
greatest team of all time in USSR and a still
good Czechoslovakia Team.

That 1980 Team speaks to my tendency to go for
teammate familiarity up front. The 1980 Team
had 8 skaters that played together at
UMinn (9 counting the back up Janaszak),
4 players from BU who played together,
2 from BG, 2 from MD and 2 from
UW who played together. That was a huge
factor in them winning the Gold Medal.

Incidentally, the 1980 US Olympic Team
lost two HHOF, 3 out of their top 4 Dmen
1 of their 2 G and 2 more top 9 F who had
they gone the NCAA route and used their
remaining NCAA eligibility been on the US Team.
Want to see those missing pieces?

G - Baker

D - Langway - Roberts - Dunn

F - Mullen - Gorence

So the USA beat the greatest team of all time
in the USSR and a still quality Czechoslovakia
missing almost their entire top 4 D and
their most dynamic forward.

If the NHL had shutdown to go to Lake Placid
this probably should have been the US A Team

G - Lopresti Baker

D - Sargent - Larson - Langway - Roberts - Dunn
Brownschidle

C - Howe -Ftorek - Johnson - Christian

RW Holmgren - Rowe - Gorence - Mullen

LW Jensen - Fidler - Talafous -Bennett

So Johnson and Christian would have been the only
2 players from the 1980 US Gold Medal team to
make a 1980 USA NHL eligible Olympic Team.

So don't dismiss familiarity it was damn important
in 1980.

All those old olympic teams had familiarity though. 1980 was nothing special in that regard. All those teams were comprised of several players from same schools and all teams from 1976-1994 played 50-60 games pre-tournament. So players really didn't need to be college teammates to develop chemistry. Despite this familiarity, we only won 1 medal in 6 tournaments during this time frame.

It’s not practical to cite 1980 as an example for anything. It was a total outlier. We could try to replicate that scenario a million times and it likely wouldn't occur again.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

All those old olympic teams had familiarity though. 1980 was nothing special in that regard. All those teams were comprised of several players from same schools and all teams from 1976-1994 played 50-60 games pre-tournament. So players really didn't need to be college teammates to develop chemistry. Despite this familiarity, we only won 1 medal in 6 tournaments during this time frame.

It’s not practical to cite 1980 as an example for anything. It was a total outlier. We could try to replicate that scenario a million times and it likely wouldn't occur again.

You are doing some cherry picking starting in
1976. Go back to 1972 and go through 1994
and I would say a Gold and Silver using
for the most part NCAA All Star teams isn't
terrible.

Also, go look at the talent that the 1976 and 1988
teams in particular lost due to players turning pro early.

1976 - G Lopresti

D - Sargent, Hangsleben, O'Connell,
Langevin, Wilson, Brownschidle

F - Howe, Rowe, Talafous, Fidler, Miller, Holmgren, Chartraw

Thats the ENTIRE D corp UPGRADED and a couple
of quality forwards added and Lopresti was an
upgrade in net.

1988

G Barrasso

D Iafrate, Hatcher, Wolanin, Chambers

F Lafontaine, Olczyk, Jensen, Carson, Presley,
Noonan

That's a lot of elite NHL skill in Goal, on D and
upfront. As it was that '88 team was very competitive
with Czechoslovakia and USSR. They came close to
completing a 6-2 comeback against the USSR. Leetch
hit the post at I believe 6-5 with 5 minutes left.

I would say if all US players went NCAA route
and used their entire eligibility the 1976 team
would have been prohibitive favorite for Bronze,
with an outside chance for Silver.

The 1988 Team absolutely us a co-favorite for Silver
and has an outside chance at Gold, given that
game against the USSR. I would say 1 in 10
for Gold.

So if you use an NCAA model for player pool
for all US players, you can see 1976 could have
been a harbinger of 1980 and beyond.

The 1992 team made the Final Four and lost
guys like Schneider, Hatcher, Roenick, Modano
Leclair and Amonte. Their weakness would have
been pretty clearly in net.

 

[Hanji]

You are doing some cherry picking starting in
1976. Go back to 1972 and go through 1994
and I would say a Gold and Silver using
for the most part NCAA All Star teams isn't
terrible.

Also, go look at the talent that the 1976 and 1988
teams in particular lost due to players turning pro early.

1976 - G Lopresti

D - Sargent, Hangsleben, O'Connell,
Langevin, Wilson, Brownschidle

F - Howe, Rowe, Fidler, Miller, Holmgren, Chartraw

Thats the ENTIRE D corp UPGRADED and a couple
of quality forwards added and Lopresti was an
upgrade in net.

1988

G Barrasso

D Iafrate, Hatcher, Wolanin, Chambers

F Lafontaine, Olczyk, Jensen, Carson, Presley,
Noonan

That's a lot of elite NHL skill in Goal, on D and
upfront. As it was that '88 team was very competitive
with Czechoslovakia and USSR. They came close to
completing a 6-2 comeback against the USSR. Leetch
hit the post at I believe 6-5 with 5 minutes left.

I would say if all US players went NCAA route
and used their entire eligibility the 1976 team
would have been prohibitive favorite for Bronze,
with an outside chance for Silver.

The 1988 Team absolutely us a co-favorite for Silver
and has an outside chance at Gold, given that
game against the USSR. I would say 1 in 10
for Gold.

So if you use an NCAA model for player pool
for all US players, you can see 1976 could have
been a harbinger of 1980 and beyond.

The 1992 team made the Final Four and lost
guys like Schneider, Hatcher, Roenick, Modano
Leclair and Amonte. Their weakness would have
been pretty clearly in net.

I'm not cherry-picking anything. I used '76-'94 because these are the years we played an extensive pre-olympic schedule. Playing 60 games prior to the tournament is much more conducive for team chemistry than just using pre-existing lines from college. My comment was in response to you claiming chemistry was a large factor in 1980's win. Perhaps it was, but it wasn't unique to that team only.

If anything, you're cherry-picking. You're focusing solely on games against USSR/Czechoslovakia while omitting olympic results as a whole. I mean we twice lost to W. Germany in this time frame and also tied hockey superpowers Norway and France.

 

[Czechboy]

The one post made me curious:

Russia is defending Olympic Gold Medal champs right now (but not best on best)
Russia last won a World's in 2014
The World Cups have not been that kind to Russia but they do have Canada Cup (81 which was mentioned above)

Russia men's national ice hockey team - Wikipedia

 

[KillerMillerTime]

I'm not cherry-picking anything. I used '76-'94 because these are the years we played an extensive pre-olympic schedule. Playing 60 games prior to the tournament is much more conducive for team chemistry than just using pre-existing lines from college. My comment was in response to you claiming chemistry was a large factor in 1980's win. Perhaps it was, but it wasn't unique to that team only.

If anything, you're cherry-picking. You're focusing solely on games against USSR/Czechoslovakia while omitting olympic results as a whole. I mean we twice lost to W. Germany in this time frame and also tied hockey superpowers Norway and France.

What are u talking about? Brooks picked 9 out of the
20 players from his own college team. Don't give
me BS that having 8 of them play prominent roles
didn't make it easier to create team chemistry.
In addition you had 4 players from BU, including Craig
and Eruzione. So 12/19 players came from just 2 NCAA
which also happened to contain the prior two NCAA
Champions. So quite clearly you are WRONG. That
1980 US Team had familiarity never seen before or since
from an NCAA pool of talent.

I just demonstrated to you that the US Olympic Teams from 1972-1992 were more often than not culled
from NCAA rosters and in the case of the 1976
Team and 1988 team victims of Canadian Junior
Leagues and NHL signings. The 1976 team had they
had access to all players born from '53-56 (NCAA age group) would have given the Czech's a fight for Silver.

The 1988 Team with the player pool from '65-68
would have challenged for Gold. So, just the NCAA
talent pools was capable of generating worst case
a couple of Bronzes and Silver. Best case scenario
a Gold ('88), 2 Silvers ('76 and '92).

1972. Silver

1976. Bronze (Worst) Best. (Silver)

Significant Players missed: Lopresti - Sargent -Langevin - Larson - Hangsleben
Howe - Talafous - W Miller - Chartraw - Holmgren
Rowe - Fidler

1980. . Gold

1984. Best. (Bronze)

Significant Players Missed: Casey - Ludwig - Housley- Kurvers - Johnson - Carpenter
Fergus - Mullen

1988 Silver (Worst) Gold (Best)

Significant Players Missed: Barrasso - Iafrate - Hatcher - Chambers - Lafontaine -
Olczyk - Jensen - Carson - Presley - Turcotte

The Ultimate What If Tom Glavine (was better than Kevin Stevens, Steve Leach and Paul Ranheim in HS. Was similar to Craig Janney in style).

 

[KillerMillerTime]

The one post made me curious:

Russia is defending Olympic Gold Medal champs right now (but not best on best)
Russia last won a World's in 2014
The World Cups have not been that kind to Russia but they do have Canada Cup (81 which was mentioned above)

Russia men's national ice hockey team - Wikipedia

So in other words worse than Sweden, Czech Republic, Finland and US in Olympics (1998-2014). Worse than Canada, US in Canada/World Cup (1976 -1996).

 

[Czechboy]

So in other words worse than Sweden, Czech Republic, Finland and US in Olympics (1998-2014). Worse than Canada, US in Canada/World Cup (1976 -1996).

Depends on the window. If we go back to 1998 then the Czechs have a best on best Olympic Gold, 5 world Championships and an unofficial best on best Worlds (2005 during lockout) which is all great. If we use the last decade, Czechs aren't even on the same planet as the Big 5 and I'm not sure if we are closing the gap or making it wider as we literally need every guy drafted to hit it big and that isn't going to happen.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

Depends on the window. If we go back to 1998 then the Czechs have a best on best Olympic Gold, 5 world Championships and an unofficial best on best Worlds (2005 during lockout) which is all great. If we use the last decade, Czechs aren't even on the same planet as the Big 5 and I'm not sure if we are closing the gap or making it wider as we literally need every guy drafted to hit it big and that isn't going to happen.

I am a Bruins fan so pretty familiar with some of your best. Krejci and Pastrnak obviously and Kase also. Also unfortunately Palat...lol.

 

[Czechboy]

I am a Bruins fan so pretty familiar with some of your best. Krejci and Pastrnak obviously and Kase also. Also unfortunately Palat...lol.

The Palat thing was hillarious... he just kept scoring against the B's. Just an insanely well timed (or poorly timed for B's) heater. Kase looked good to great but seemed to lack puck luck. What a brutal matchup.. both TB and B's could've won the cup.

 

[Lollipop]

USA B isn’t better than A rosters from Sweden, Russia and Finland. It’s hilarous to think that.
I don’t USA A isn’t better either.

I would say Canada, Sweden and Russia are the powerhouses. USA is in 4/5 place with Finland.