Unpopular Wrestling Opinions
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Vince made a mistake in letting Bret go. Vince could have still established his Mr.McMahon character without the Montreal Screwjob. Had Vince kept Bret, the Austin/Bret feud would have been properly concluded at WM 14 with Bret putting Austin over cleanly in a blood filled match. And we missed out on some other possible great feuds. I would have loved to see Bret vs Rock, Jericho, Benoit, Eddie and Booker.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
I sometimes wonder how Bret would've done in the WWE from 1998-2001.
Screwjob and WCW debacle aside, I think he would've had a hard time fitting in during those peak Attitude years.
I think he could somewhat skirt around those matters in 1997, maybe even into 1998. But after that I think he would've looked, and probably felt very out of place.
1997 was that ideal crossroad for Hart where he could essentially still be an old-school heel, but with a unique twist. Once that role ran its course, I have a hard time seeing what would've come next. I think him leaving when he did adds intrigue to the what-if scenarios. In a sense, he left fans wanting more, without the drag of having them find out that "more" couldn't match what they had already enjoyed to that point.
BGDDYKWL
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Couldn't agree with this more. And not to beat a dead horse, but when a guy like Hogan went on The Tonight Show or whatever, he was literally larger than life. I don't care how many yes chants Daniel Bryan gets, he'll never have that.
And don't even get me started on NXT and these other smaller promotions. Not a chance in hell they produce a global superstar.
Wrestlers used to be physical freaks who were larger than life, they had that wow factor. The "stars" nowadays are either vanilla midgets or fat slobs who are maybe 6'0" in boots.
Stone Cold Steve Austin was a shoot 6’1”
If there was a giant juiced to the gills that people wanted to see, we’d be seeing them.
BGDDYKWL
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Austin (still) is a very big dude. Former football player. Very easy to believe he's a badass. And no he couldn't have been booked as a monster with no mic skills, obviously his charisma is what put it over the top. But that type of charisma/character in say Sami Zayn's body just isn't gonna work.
No one is saying Sami Zayn is the next mega star, but how can you see what a huge sensation Conor McGregor became and say anyone gives a shit about size? It’s all about charisma. Obviously someone the size of Hornswoggle won’t be the face, but there’s no reason why someone who’s 5’8” (McGregor, Mayweather) with all the charisma in the world can’t be a megastar. Mike Tyson was 5’10”, but he was still a massive star.
No one gives a shit about size (height). It’s about charisma and aura more than anything.
JackSlater
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I think that Hart could have done very well in that era, unless he walked due to his hatred of the stupidity that made the air with some regularity. His promos were better than ever in 1997, even showing the required "edge" that the attitude era would require, and even WCW Bret cut some funny promos like when he was calling out the cruiserweights. In ring I think that he would also be ok - no one had better chemistry with Austin, plus Hart never even had a match with Kane or Rock (I refuse to count Rocky Maivia or Isaac Yankem). He also never really feuded with any version of Foley. It's easy to conceive of stalwart veteran and keeper of the old guard Bret Hart taking issue with hardcore Mankind/Cactus or flashy trash talking Rock. Politically he would also probably be fine with Michaels gone. Even as HHH rose up in power, Bret has allies in Austin and Rock (though admittedly both were more lone wolves when at their peaks) if need be.
I don't think that there was any way to sustain Bret's 1997 run, as it was pure gold and one of the greatest faces of all time. 1998 and 1999 would have been somewhat leaner years and I can imagine him walking over some of the storylines, but if he sticks around to 2000 then things really turn around. Hart was a guy who wanted to face off against the best wrestlers when he was on top, even if they were well below him in kayfabe. Once 2000 hits you have possibilities like Hart/Angle, Hart/Benoit, Hart/Jericho, Hart Guerrero etc. that would allow him to go until 2002ish very hot.
Emperoreddy
Show Me What You Got!
I find it hard to see where Vince made a mistake though. Especially in hindsight with how well things worked for him and WWE and how terribly the rest of Bret’s career went.
BGDDYKWL
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You say no one cares about size but if you look at the top talent the past 30 years, virtually every single guy had it. What people don't seem to understand is charisma without the look isn't believable. Some of these guys, particularly on the smaller shows, are downright pathetic.
No one has cared about wrestling since the end of the attitude era. It’s dumb to refer back 30 years ago when wrestling was a new thing on nationwide television and was making bold plays, like Wrestlemania. What people wanted back 30 years ago doesn’t apply today just like you can’t take the attitude era and put it on TV today. It’s all a product of the time.
The reality is wrestling is a niche with a loyal fan base and then casuals. Size has very little to do with anything these days when athleticism is at the forefront. If size mattered, Bryan wouldn’t have gotten hot and wouldn’t have had crossover to the other sports that were using his chant. CM Punk wouldn’t have been in demand after his pipebomb. Hell, John Cena is only 6 feet tall and the biggest star post-Attitude Era. Cena is most definitely not a giant.
Conor McGregor would not have gotten so big if people cared about size. Same for Tyson in his day, same for Mayweather on his rise.
You and I always run around in circles with this because you think what applied 20 or 30 years ago is relevant today when it’s not. The audience doesn’t care about seeing 6‘6” dudes who no charisma or talent. The fans want someone who can work a decent match at least because the fan base has been geared towards the athleticism aspect of professional wrestling.
This example can also be another unpopular opinion for this thread if people consider it as such: Hulk Hogan, everything the exact same as back in the 80s and early 90s, planted in today’s era would have flopped. He can’t work a match his character was an even more child friendly Cena character that would have turned fans against him. He probably would have still sold enough merchandise to be in that Cena tier, but he wouldn’t have come close to being looked at in the same light as Austin or Rock.
thats cuz you forced that idea in your head that wrestling has to be giants....
its old school mentality of "you dont have what it takes".... but wrestling is fake.
making a good match and get the crowd behind you is a thing thats leading to...... TONIGHT!
BGDDYKWL
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No question times have changed, and the hardcores seem to like guys with zero "look" who can do some flips. But is appealing to hardcores the answer? Viewership seems to be lower than ever, so do people really not want the look that used to be popular?
Cena is a monster. Quoted by Show as the strongest guy in the business. He's bigger than 99.9% of the population.
Tyson was a HW so that still fits the bill. But there are always exceptions (like the ones you mention). Typically they are unbelievably charismatic. Conor is, somehow people feel Mayweather is, and in terms of wrestling Bryan and Punk are.
I'd agree with the Hogan stuff. Heck, it was getting stale in the 90s. That's at least partly what made the NWO angle so shocking/epic.
PeterSidorkiewicz
HFWF Tourney Undisputed Champion
Shawn Michaels. Ric Flair. My favorite of all time - Chris Jericho. CM Punk.
You can't fit everyone into a box. You can have a mega star Undertaker and Hogan, and you can have a megastar like a Michaels or Flair.
I don't necessarily disagree with ALL that you said though.
You can't fit everyone into a box. You can have a mega star Undertaker and Hogan, and you can have a megastar like a Michaels or Flair.
I don't necessarily disagree with ALL that you said though.
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I don’t disagree with @BGDDYKWL entirely either. There are some dudes in the business these days who were “big fans” but never looked like they hit the gym a day in their life and it looks stupid.
I don’t agree that you need to be a heavyweight to be a big star or draw, though.
I don’t agree that you need to be a heavyweight to be a big star or draw, though.
I think if they let Bray run with The Fiend and Firefly Funhouse, he will be the best character in WWE history.
sabremike
THE RED BULL
In the size debate I am amazed nobody has mentioned two of the biggest draws ever: Rey and Jerry Lawler.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
I want to like AEW as the plucky, young upstart.
But they just keep coming off as frat boy, douchie.
They remind me of an indy band that keeps bragging about how they're better than what's playing mainstream, and then you go see them perform, and it feels so underwhelming.
But they just keep coming off as frat boy, douchie.
They remind me of an indy band that keeps bragging about how they're better than what's playing mainstream, and then you go see them perform, and it feels so underwhelming.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
then how is a show on week 1 much more bad, than the only crap you can compare it in north america?
nxt and aew are so fun.
if you dont like it you dont like it. but yes...i feel that one show was much better than "the mainstream" stuff youre talking about.
nxt and aew are so fun.
if you dont like it you dont like it. but yes...i feel that one show was much better than "the mainstream" stuff youre talking about.
I don't know how unpopular these are but it's what I could think of right now:
Kane always sucked. Even for a big man. Just bad matches and bad feuds for 20 years.
Undertaker is overrated. The most protected wrestler maybe ever. And most of his great matches have been against the best wrestlers and while he has been on pretty much a part time schedule.
R-Truth is one of the most misused wrestlers in the last 30 years. The guy has it all. He's good in comedic roles now because it's probably too late to do a anything else with him but he should have been a top wrestler.
I can't stand fans using most insider terms. I'm okay with face and heel, but the one that is most cringey is using the term "the business" instead of just calling it wrestling. I went to Summerslam and these guys sitting right behind were using inside terms all night and being loud about it as if they wanted everyone to hear them and they thought they were cool. "Put him over Goldberg" was one I remember.
Bret Hart was good on the mic.
I think I'm the only one that really liked Ryback. He was big, good on the mic, and decent enough in the ring.
Jerry Lawler post 1997 was a terrible colour commentator.
Finn Balor should wear face/body paint all the time. Maybe not the full demon paint, but at least something. Otherwise, he's just a bland, boring, smiley face.
Kane always sucked. Even for a big man. Just bad matches and bad feuds for 20 years.
Undertaker is overrated. The most protected wrestler maybe ever. And most of his great matches have been against the best wrestlers and while he has been on pretty much a part time schedule.
R-Truth is one of the most misused wrestlers in the last 30 years. The guy has it all. He's good in comedic roles now because it's probably too late to do a anything else with him but he should have been a top wrestler.
I can't stand fans using most insider terms. I'm okay with face and heel, but the one that is most cringey is using the term "the business" instead of just calling it wrestling. I went to Summerslam and these guys sitting right behind were using inside terms all night and being loud about it as if they wanted everyone to hear them and they thought they were cool. "Put him over Goldberg" was one I remember.
Bret Hart was good on the mic.
I think I'm the only one that really liked Ryback. He was big, good on the mic, and decent enough in the ring.
Jerry Lawler post 1997 was a terrible colour commentator.
Finn Balor should wear face/body paint all the time. Maybe not the full demon paint, but at least something. Otherwise, he's just a bland, boring, smiley face.
Shoalzie
Trust me!
This take piggybacks off all the recent gripes about the Hell in the Cell main event...
I think it gets harder and harder to book non-realistic gimmicks in today's wrestling when kayfabe is basically dead.
While I like the idea of villainous/scary characters like The Fiend or Kane or Undertaker...what is their real motivation and why would they ever want to follow the rules in a match and win actual championships? When so many current wrestlers have a gimmick of just being a regular person who is just good at wrestling and/or talking...how does a villainous or mythical character with make-believe powers lose or get defeated by an ordinary wrestler and why would their physical vulnerability ever involve them being pinned or submitted?
I think this is where an idea like The Fiend loses steam in modern wrestling. You can book him to terrorize and hurt current or past wrestlers in non-matches but why would he care about the Universal Title or getting a clean pinfall against Rollins? All his matches should end with non-finishes because you're implying he has a conscious. What is the actual point of Bray Wyatt as the kid's show host? He should be the wrestler where he just has a dark side but doesn't go "full fiend".
Brock Lesnar or Braun Strowman are physical bullies or strongmen...you can't have them be in the same universe as wrestlers with mythical powers. Either the mythical figures can't be defeated or they just don't get involved in real wrestling matches. The Demon character for Finn Balor is another thing that I like in theory but it doesn't make any sense. Finn Balor is a great wrestler but he should just have an edge to him. Let the paint be his uniform but it doesn't make him better, it just looks cool on TV. Regular leather jacket and no-paint Balor should be his non-wrestling look...like when he cuts a promo or has a run in. The demon paint should be for his matches...basically be his warpaint.
If you want to have mythical/scary/villainous wrestlers...they shouldn't be in the same promotion/universe as "regular wrestler" guy.
I think it gets harder and harder to book non-realistic gimmicks in today's wrestling when kayfabe is basically dead.
While I like the idea of villainous/scary characters like The Fiend or Kane or Undertaker...what is their real motivation and why would they ever want to follow the rules in a match and win actual championships? When so many current wrestlers have a gimmick of just being a regular person who is just good at wrestling and/or talking...how does a villainous or mythical character with make-believe powers lose or get defeated by an ordinary wrestler and why would their physical vulnerability ever involve them being pinned or submitted?
I think this is where an idea like The Fiend loses steam in modern wrestling. You can book him to terrorize and hurt current or past wrestlers in non-matches but why would he care about the Universal Title or getting a clean pinfall against Rollins? All his matches should end with non-finishes because you're implying he has a conscious. What is the actual point of Bray Wyatt as the kid's show host? He should be the wrestler where he just has a dark side but doesn't go "full fiend".
Brock Lesnar or Braun Strowman are physical bullies or strongmen...you can't have them be in the same universe as wrestlers with mythical powers. Either the mythical figures can't be defeated or they just don't get involved in real wrestling matches. The Demon character for Finn Balor is another thing that I like in theory but it doesn't make any sense. Finn Balor is a great wrestler but he should just have an edge to him. Let the paint be his uniform but it doesn't make him better, it just looks cool on TV. Regular leather jacket and no-paint Balor should be his non-wrestling look...like when he cuts a promo or has a run in. The demon paint should be for his matches...basically be his warpaint.
If you want to have mythical/scary/villainous wrestlers...they shouldn't be in the same promotion/universe as "regular wrestler" guy.
JackSlater
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- Apr 27, 2010
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I agree that it is a very difficult balance. I think that there is a way to do a sort of "monster" but it would be very tricky and in most promotions would involve using no actual "magic" or anything. I think that monster heels, whether a monster character like Wyatt recently or even a guy like Lesnar who fulfills the traditional role of a monster, don't work very well without a territory system anymore. You can't use the wrestler for months or years on end without drastically watering down the monster aspect, with some of the reasons outlined above.
