The Columbus Dispatch: Umberger wants out (Dispatch link post #276)

[Samkow]

Wow, hon.. I don't think I've seen you this vociferously hateful of a player, like, ever. I mean, you're getting well into "DISPATCH MIND CONTORL" level hatred here.

Just preemptively preparing for the Malhotra/Prospal like hysteria that'll occur after our first 3 game losing streak in October/November.

And I can't wish any player well who asks out for non-family reasons. Sorry.

 

[Viqsi]

Just preemptively preparing for the Malhotra/Prospal like hysteria that'll occur after our first 3 game losing streak in October/November.

And I can't wish any player well who asks out for non-family reasons. Sorry.

That's entirely fair as regards your opinion of the man (I obviously disagree, but there's no point in hashing that out), but really rather unfair w/r/t assessment of his market value IMO.

Also, Umby's been a whipping boy for long enough that said hysteria is inevitably going to be about which of the Comeau/Skille/Tropp/MacKenzie group we fail to retain, not him.

 

[pete goegan]

And I can't wish any player well who asks out for non-family reasons. Sorry.

Honestly, I put RJ in the same category as Nash - they put in enough time, contributed on the ice, were deeply involved in the community, and presented a very positive image of the Blue Jackets throughout the league. They remain among my CBJ favorites because of these factors. I know this is not a widely shared opinion by those who can't forgive them for asking out, but it is how I see it.

 

[major major]

Honestly, I put RJ in the same category as Nash - they put in enough time, contributed on the ice, were deeply involved in the community, and presented a very positive image of the Blue Jackets throughout the league. They remain among my CBJ favorites because of these factors. I know this is not a widely shared opinion by those who can't forgive them for asking out, but it is how I see it.

I agree. There are plenty of good reasons for a player to want a fresh start somewhere new, just as you or I might switch companies, universities and cities.

Umby and Nash put a lot of effort in over many years as Jackets before they needed to be moved. That's legit. Carter never tried.

 

[EspenK]

I think there is a difference in the asking outs by Nash & Umbie. One was fed up with rebuilding/losing,etc;the other sees the handwriting on the wall and wants an opportunity to go where he is a better fit. I don't think I care about either one of them wanting out. Nash did us a favor and I'm guessing Umbie's departure will be viewed the same by most.

 

[Viqsi]

Wasn't going to bring it up, but these last three posts pretty much all are where I'm standing on it as well. Especially as contrasted with The Former #7.

 

[Doug19]

Umberger doesn't have a positive market value if we have to retain salary. So you're discussion with a friend pretty much agrees you think he has negative value.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Umberger can waive his NMC entirely and it still won't help the Jackets. He's worth a Ville Leino-type and nothing more.

If the Jackets ownership has any grasp on what it takes to become a highly competitive team, they will have to concede to the unfortunate reality of paying yet another player to not play for the team. I'm sure that Worthington Industries has made its fair share of mistakes in resource allocation. It shouldn't be very hard for JD and JK to sell this to JMAC. They have the trump card of pinning in on a previous administration and that the amnesty buyout allows the team a mulligan in making itself all the more competitive.

Still, JK will probably have to waste time trying to work impossible trades for RJU in order to satisfy ownership. No big deal. It only delays the inevitable buyout for a week or so.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Umberger can waive his NMC entirely and it still won't help the Jackets. He's worth a Ville Leino-type and nothing more.

If the Jackets ownership has any grasp on what it takes to become a highly competitive team, they will have to concede to the unfortunate reality of paying yet another player to not play for the team. I'm sure that Worthington Industries has made its fair share of mistakes in resource allocation. It shouldn't be very hard for JD and JK to sell this to JMAC. They have the trump card of pinning in on a previous administration and that the amnesty buyout allows the team a mulligan in making itself all the more competitive.

Still, JK will probably have to waste time trying to work impossible trades for RJU in order to satisfy ownership. No big deal. It only delays the inevitable buyout for a week or so.

I don't doubt that much of this is the case.

I also don't doubt the possibility that the "requested a trade" business has a less-concrete benefit to both player (potential to save professional face) and organization (hey, if you can trade the player...).

The RJU situation will work itself out this summer. I got nothing else really on the topic.

 

[Crede777]

Umberger can waive his NMC entirely and it still won't help the Jackets. He's worth a Ville Leino-type and nothing more.

If the Jackets ownership has any grasp on what it takes to become a highly competitive team, they will have to concede to the unfortunate reality of paying yet another player to not play for the team. I'm sure that Worthington Industries has made its fair share of mistakes in resource allocation. It shouldn't be very hard for JD and JK to sell this to JMAC. They have the trump card of pinning in on a previous administration and that the amnesty buyout allows the team a mulligan in making itself all the more competitive.

Still, JK will probably have to waste time trying to work impossible trades for RJU in order to satisfy ownership. No big deal. It only delays the inevitable buyout for a week or so.

My fear was that they would take the buyout option off the table and actually put themselves in a worse mess by retaining salary AND taking on another bad contract effectively turning a $4.5 million per year problem into a $7-8 million per year problem.

 

[cbjfaninmo]

My fear was that they would take the buyout option off the table and actually put themselves in a worse mess by retaining salary AND taking on another bad contract effectively turning a $4.5 million per year problem into a $7-8 million per year problem.

I hope they are smarter than that.

 

[BluejacketNut]

Honestly, I put RJ in the same category as Nash - they put in enough time, contributed on the ice, were deeply involved in the community, and presented a very positive image of the Blue Jackets throughout the league. They remain among my CBJ favorites because of these factors. I know this is not a widely shared opinion by those who can't forgive them for asking out, but it is how I see it.

Completely agree, my angst doesnt lie with Nash, but with the inept management that didnt know how to build a team. No one likes losing, and Nash went through a lot of it with this team. RJ I can understand if he wants more playing time, but I also dont think anyone who asks to be traded should be able to give a list of where he DOESNT want to go. They're the one that wants out and also completely shot down any leverage in a trade for said player.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Umberger can waive his NMC entirely and it still won't help the Jackets. He's worth a Ville Leino-type and nothing more.

If Leino were the return, Buffalo had better be kicking in at least one or two of those 2nds that they hold.

Umberger can still produce to some extent. Leino could, but it doesn't look like he will in Buffalo.

 

[Viqsi]

Umberger doesn't have a positive market value if we have to retain salary. So you're discussion with a friend pretty much agrees you think he has negative value.

lol what

Even if your premise as stated could be said to have merit (which is... I can't even begin to figure out how to explain that one)... it may have not been clear from my phrasing, but our discussions DID include a "no retained salary" option.

* * *​

Umberger can waive his NMC entirely and it still won't help the Jackets. He's worth a Ville Leino-type and nothing more.

Really?

Really?

Ville Leino: $4.5m/year for 3 years remaining, about to turn 31, scored 46 points in 137 games (10-36-46, 0.34 ppg) over the past 3 seasons (most recent season 0-15-15 in 58 GP), career high of 53 points in a season (2010-2011), historically has most commonly scored roughly around the 10-20 point range (career yearly totals: 9/13gp, 13/55gp, 53/81gp, 25/71gp, 6/8gp, 15/58gp).

RJ Umberger: $4.6m/year for 3 years remaining, just turned 32, scored 92 points in 199 games (46-46-92, 0.46 ppg) over the past 3 seasons (most recent season 18-16-34 in 74 GP), career high of 57 points in a season (2010-2011), historically has most commonly scored roughly around the 40-50 point range (career yearly totals: 38/73gp, 28/81gp, 50/74gp, 46/82gp, 55/82gp, 57/82gp, 40/77gp, 18/48gp, 34/74gp).


Remaining contracts and age situations are virtually identical - and yet RJ has always been the better player. For G-d's sake, in the regular season, RJ's scored more goals in the last three seasons than Leino has had in his NHL career. Now, w/r/t the rest of your comment, a buyout is certainly a possibility (that is a heavy contract indeed), but comments like this are just absurd. Let's at least try to be realistic? Okay?

 

[Xoggz22]

RJ will not be bought out. Take it to the bank. CBJ will retain salary to move him and reduce the financial burden. I want RJ gone as well but a buyout just doesn't seem like a realistic business/asset option. I may eat crow nut I just don't see a buyout. RJ has value, just not $4.6MM I'm value.

 

[SuperGenius]

Honestly, I put RJ in the same category as Nash - they put in enough time, contributed on the ice, were deeply involved in the community, and presented a very positive image of the Blue Jackets throughout the league. They remain among my CBJ favorites because of these factors. I know this is not a widely shared opinion by those who can't forgive them for asking out, but it is how I see it.

I'm more forgiving of Umby wanting to find a better situation than I am him not showing up in shape for the 2011-12 and 2013 seasons.

 

[punk_o_holic]

So Umbie's list is in. Who do you think are the 10 he won't go to?

I'd guess:
Vancouver
Edmonton
Calgary
Winnipeg
Montreal
Ottawa (previously posted as Quebec because I am an idiot )
Buffalo
Isles
Florida
Nashville? Phoenix? Toronto?

I don't think he would have these teams on the list. Here's my reasonings.

Phoenix- Not a bad city/place to live. Their LW/RW depth chart at the moment looks weak so a chance to crack the number 2 line. They seem to either make the playoff's or just miss. So a potential playoff team.

Calgary- Does Burke still hate him because of the contract dispute he had in Vancouver? If so, I don't think Burke will allow the G.M. to make a trade for him. This would be more of a gamble on Umberger's part though. If he assumes Burke/Calgary won't go after him because of Burke then why would he put Calgary on the list? He is able to take a chance and leave them off the list and put another team on the list. Now if Burke is over the dispute and gives Calgary the green light to go after him then Umberger would be sol.

Vancouver- (if you had them because of Kesler)
1)When asked if the feud between Ryan and him was the reason Kesler had Columbus on his no trade list, he got offended. Said it was unfair for both players to think that. Said he would be fine being teammates because he knows he's a good player and he would help out the team. It seemed like Umberger is over the feud.

2)But by chance he isn't over the feud, Kesler wants out of Vancouver so he's most likely going to get traded. So if Umberger still has a problem with him, nothing to worry about as they won't be teammates in Vancouver.

3)I don't think Kesler is over the feud with Umberger. So if management convinces Kesler to stay, why would they bring in a player that Kesler hates. Could/will cause issues in the locker room and would be a big distraction to the team.
Imo, Umberger can take the chance of not adding Vancouver on his list for my reasons above and add another team on the list.

Florida- Nice city/warm weather. Lots of young talent to play with. They have Luongo now and Tallon said he is willing to spend money. Perhaps they sign some players become a better team. Only issue is, is there a spot for him on the top 2 lines?

 

[MoeBartoli]

Honestly, I put RJ in the same category as Nash - they put in enough time, contributed on the ice, were deeply involved in the community, and presented a very positive image of the Blue Jackets throughout the league. They remain among my CBJ favorites because of these factors. I know this is not a widely shared opinion by those who can't forgive them for asking out, but it is how I see it.

While I have been critical of his play at times, I wholeheartedly agree with your comments. He gave the CBJ some good seasons and is someone who quickly comes to mind when you think about players who have worn a Blue Jacket jersey.

 

[Sore Loser]

Honestly, I put RJ in the same category as Nash - they put in enough time, contributed on the ice, were deeply involved in the community, and presented a very positive image of the Blue Jackets throughout the league. They remain among my CBJ favorites because of these factors. I know this is not a widely shared opinion by those who can't forgive them for asking out, but it is how I see it.

Agreed, Pete.

I think people are worrying too early over this situation ... give it a couple of weeks, let the Draft pass, and if he hasn't been dealt by then, it's time to worry.

Not many teams are going to make roster moves when the playoffs are still going on - or, even, a few days after they've ended. Teams really start getting to work around the 3/4 days before the draft, adding and subtracting from their rosters. My guess is, that week is when a deal will get done.

My thinking on a return for Umberger (one of the following):

1. A player in a similar situation ... this is the most unlikely scenario, because there aren't really any other similar situations in the league. Comparing him to Leino is unfair to Umberger; for me a better comparison would be Tuomo Ruutu. I think Umberger has at least some value left in him, whereas Leino is a complete mess with an ugly contract.

2. The cheap sell-off. The return for Umberger is no better than a 6th or 7th round pick, to a team with plenty of cap space who needs a warm body that can at least compete and be a leader while their youth develops. Contenders for this would be Buffalo, Florida, Calgary, Edmonton, or the likes. As many of you have probably guessed, this is an unlikely scenario because Umberger has probably refused trade to any team in that situation. Which brings us to...

3. (The most likely scenario) ... The retained salary deal. We send Umberger away for a middle round pick, middle tier prospect, or aging veteran; while retaining a good chunk of his salary. I think this is where we would get the most value for him, because we could trade him to a team that is willing to spend in the range of $2.6-$3.3 million/year for a depth wing. Which is what Umberger is. And, most of the teams on his list will likely be looking to spend in that range for a player of his ilk. A third or fourth round pick may not be out of the asking range, in my opinion. Flame away if you'd like

I still don't think it's all that bad. We have a serviceable asset who still has a few good years left. And, with a lesser salary, has plenty to give to a team that wants to add depth. If not, we can use an amnesty buyout on him, and he will be a long-forgotten memory in a year or two.

 

[Samkow]

http://bluejacketsxtra.dispatch.com/content/blogs/puck-rakers/2014/06/umberger-updated.html

Nothing really new here, Portzline pretty much implies that people aren't beating down the doors to get Umberger and that this will be over by June 30th, one way or the other.

 

[Crede777]

3. (The most likely scenario) ... The retained salary deal. We send Umberger away for a middle round pick, middle tier prospect, or aging veteran; while retaining a good chunk of his salary. I think this is where we would get the most value for him, because we could trade him to a team that is willing to spend in the range of $2.6-$3.3 million/year for a depth wing. Which is what Umberger is. And, most of the teams on his list will likely be looking to spend in that range for a player of his ilk. A third or fourth round pick may not be out of the asking range, in my opinion. Flame away if you'd like

I still don't think it's all that bad. We have a serviceable asset who still has a few good years left. And, with a lesser salary, has plenty to give to a team that wants to add depth. If not, we can use an amnesty buyout on him, and he will be a long-forgotten memory in a year or two.

Yeah but if we end up trading Umberger for a different depth player PLUS retain salary, then we likely end up massively overpaying that depth player.

It makes sense to retain salary if all we're getting back is a pick or a prospect (as you hypothesized). It does not make sense to retain salary if we're bringing back a player who is already slightly overpaid. In that case, we should just bury him.

Edit: I know Umberger wouldn't waive for Edmonton, but as an example, we shouldn't retain salary if we're trading him for Gagner. Gagner makes $10 million in salary alone over the next 2 years. Adding the retained salary from Umberger would make that situation even worse (it'd end up in the realm of $16 million which is ludicrous).

 

[EspenK]

http://bluejacketsxtra.dispatch.com/content/blogs/puck-rakers/2014/06/umberger-updated.html

Nothing really new here, Portzline pretty much implies that people aren't beating down the doors to get Umberger and that this will be over by June 30th, one way or the other.

Well, I'm pretty sure some folks here are surprised by that;others not so much. Buyout here we come.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I'll post this here, since Leino and Vancouver have both been mentioned in the poast page or so...

Booth and Leino both waived today for purposes of comp buyout.

 

[Sore Loser]

Yeah but if we end up trading Umberger for a different depth player PLUS retain salary, then we likely end up massively overpaying that depth player.

It makes sense to retain salary if all we're getting back is a pick or a prospect (as you hypothesized). It does not make sense to retain salary if we're bringing back a player who is already slightly overpaid. In that case, we should just bury him.

Edit: I know Umberger wouldn't waive for Edmonton, but as an example, we shouldn't retain salary if we're trading him for Gagner. Gagner makes $10 million in salary alone over the next 2 years. Adding the retained salary from Umberger would make that situation even worse (it'd end up in the realm of $16 million which is ludicrous).

I guess I mis-worded myself a little bit here...

My point on the third example was acquiring a less expensive/less valuable piece as a method of offloading the contract, while retaining salary.

What you're describing reads pretty well into my first example, the player in a similar situation ... if that's the case (Gagner, as your example states), then I agree. Do not retain any salary.

 

[JoeCBJfan]

I' don't like him but, in looking into other bad contacts to make a "hockey" trade

Umberger and Nikitin's rights
for
Dion Phaneuf

Any thoughts....