Tyson Barrie

[The Abusement Park]

And we are back to this...

You bring up Duchene asking to be moved...

When was the last time an offer sheet was signed? Oh yeah! Ryan O'Reilly. Making that move became necessary when he made the decision to sign a two year deal to play hockey in Russia. Then signed an offer sheet that was guaranteed to get him to UFA as fast as possible. Up until that contract dispute, no one wanted O'Reilly gone, he forced his way out.

Yes, O'Reilly on this team would be great. Again, I ask... The Avs sign O'Reilly for 8M a season, because that's what he wanted to stay here. Then when Mackinnon's contract comes up his agents are going to use the O'Reilly deal as the baseline. Look at the issue that Toronto is having with Marner right now. That is exactly why the Avs tried to maintain an internal cap on their young players. They knew by giving huge raises to one player would have a trickle down effect on the other players moving forward.

The ROR contract issue all started with Eric Lacroix completely f***ing up contract negotiations by being a prick offering a completely insulting long term offer to ROR. Yeah ROR could’ve dealt with the while thing better but so could the Avs. There’s faults on both sides there but in hindsight getting ROR on 7.5 deal would have been great.

Who knows what would’ve happened with the team had he signed though. Assuming Mack continued to under perform chances are his contract wouldn’t be too much different than it is now. But then does Duchene get traded and do we get Girard? What happens now that we don’t have Zadorov or Compher? There’s too much that could’ve changed to know whether or not trading ROR was the right move or not. What we do know is that we’re in a good spot going forward for the first time in about 20 years.

 

[xbestboybandever]

The ROR contract issue all started with Eric Lacroix completely ****ing up contract negotiations by being a prick offering a completely insulting long term offer to ROR. Yeah ROR could’ve dealt with the while thing better but so could the Avs. There’s faults on both sides there but in hindsight getting ROR on 7.5 deal would have been great.

Who knows what would’ve happened with the team had he signed though. Assuming Mack continued to under perform chances are his contract wouldn’t be too much different than it is now. But then does Duchene get traded and do we get Girard? What happens now that we don’t have Zadorov or Compher? There’s too much that could’ve changed to know whether or not trading ROR was the right move or not. What we do know is that we’re in a good spot going forward for the first time in about 20 years.

I would much rather have O'Reilly, but he and his agency (the same agency that has had 2 very difficult contract negotiations with Tyson Barrie and this organization) forced his way out. So to sit there and say that move wasn't necessary is completely false. Was it necessary at the very beginning? No, but O'Reilly made it as such with his actions.

 

[McMetal]

Tell me one thing, who is going to create the same offense from defense If we trade Barrie? Makar? The guy who has played few games in NHL. Girard is not on the same level at all. Johnson? Yep.. No one. You think it's easy to replace Barrie but it's not. We will be all crying for offensive defenseman If we trade him. He is elite in his role.

Keeping Barrie is crucial. We can always trade him later if Makar and Girard both breakthrough but before that, nope.

Not to mention Best friend of MacK

Nobody needs to replicate his offense from the back end if we can trade him for a forward who can be a dual threat behind MacKinnon. Barrie won't just disappear if we trade him, we will get something back.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I would much rather have O'Reilly, but he and his agency (the same agency that has had 2 very difficult contract negotiations with Tyson Barrie and this organization) forced his way out. So to sit there and say that move wasn't necessary is completely false. Was it necessary at the very beginning? No, but O'Reilly made it as such with his actions.

I said both sides were at fault in my post. ROR wanted to go long term after his ELC(which is completely reasonable) and the avs didn’t. So they offered him something completely insulting like 2mil for 6 years or something. After that ROR and Newport played hardball and went for all the money they could. Both sides play a part in the split and it’s probably for the best. But in a vacuum you’d obviously prefer to keep ROR.

 

[xbestboybandever]

Tell me one thing, who is going to create the same offense from defense If we trade Barrie? Makar? The guy who has played few games in NHL. Girard is not on the same level at all. Johnson? Yep.. No one. You think it's easy to replace Barrie but it's not. We will be all crying for offensive defenseman If we trade him. He is elite in his role.

Keeping Barrie is crucial. We can always trade him later if Makar and Girard both breakthrough but before that, nope.

Not to mention Best friend of MacK

Makar and Girard will both takes steps forward this season. THEY WILL NOT REPLACE BARRIE'S OFFENSIVE NUMBERS, however, if the right trade comes along, that brings in a good scoring option for the 2nd line and that player produces ~60 points, then you are getting similar point production from a different role while expecting that Makar and Girard can contribute about 25-35 points this year.

But here, for you and all of those that claim he is elite. What do elite players get paid? Elite money. So what happens when Barrie signs his contract extension and let's just say Makar get close to his offensive numbers while providing a substantial upgrade in the d-zone by the time he's due for a contract extension. Let's say both Makar and Girard overtake Barrie after his monster extension. How much do you pay them?

 

[xbestboybandever]

I said both sides were at fault in my post. ROR wanted to go long term after his ELC(which is completely reasonable) and the avs didn’t. So they offered him something completely insulting like 2mil for 6 years or something. After that ROR and Newport played hardball and went for all the money they could. Both sides play a part in the split and it’s probably for the best. But in a vacuum you’d obviously prefer to keep ROR.

Okay... I would like to see the link to that contract offer, because that is completely made up.

 

[Gatorbait19]

Tell me one thing, who is going to create the same offense from defense If we trade Barrie? Makar? The guy who has played few games in NHL. Girard is not on the same level at all. Johnson? Yep.. No one. You think it's easy to replace Barrie but it's not. We will be all crying for offensive defenseman If we trade him. He is elite in his role.

Keeping Barrie is crucial. We can always trade him later if Makar and Girard both breakthrough but before that, nope.

Not to mention Best friend of MacK

Listen I (and probably the other trade-Barrie wagoners) won’t say that’s not a concern, it is.

But from what we’ve seen so far (yes it’s a small sample size), I think we all expect the breakthrough for Makar/Girard come sooner rather than later. Sure, it’s a gamble, but you’ve got to take some gambles here and there and this is essentially coming down to a question of who are you betting on - Makar/Girard or Barrie? I’m betting on Makar/Girard.

Obviously we’d feel the impact more next year than any other year, but that 1 year of growing pains (which does not mean we’re rebuilding or sacrificing next season), if any, is worth avoiding getting locked into a $7-8m x 5-8 year deal for Tyson. A player who’s value to us decreases each year of that contract.

Good teams have players that complement each other. Barrie doesn’t really complement Makar/Girard very much. Makar/Girard are offensively-minded Dmen that jump up into the play (as is Barrie). Get other Dmen that complement that style and do the things that Girard/Makar don’t excel in or focus on - physical play and stay at home defending.

The team instantly gets better defensively (no matter who we’d eventually get - say Nemo though), i don’t think that’s even a debate.

Then offensively, you’re much better off spending Barrie’s $7m+ elsewhere. It opens so many possibilities including an offersheet, or just signing/trading for an entire solid second line. No more kerfoots, ghettos, bourques or brassards.

 

[TheForsbergShow]

A solid -59 for his career, with only 2 positive +/- seasons (2013-14 and 14-15).

Sure, some of his really bad years came when we were really bad, but also remember, he doesn’t play PK. So while many Dmen suffer in +/- due to playing PK, Barrie only plays ES and PP.

You do realize that +/- isn't counted if you are scored on while Pking right?

 

[The Abusement Park]

Okay... I would like to see the link to that contract offer, because that is completely made up.

I don't remember what the exact offer was but RockLobster has brought it up multiple times in ROR discussions.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Makar and Girard will both takes steps forward this season. THEY WILL NOT REPLACE BARRIE'S OFFENSIVE NUMBERS, however, if the right trade comes along, that brings in a good scoring option for the 2nd line and that player produces ~60 points, then you are getting similar point production from a different role while expecting that Makar and Girard can contribute about 25-35 points this year.

But here, for you and all of those that claim he is elite. What do elite players get paid? Elite money. So what happens when Barrie signs his contract extension and let's just say Makar get close to his offensive numbers while providing a substantial upgrade in the d-zone by the time he's due for a contract extension. Let's say both Makar and Girard overtake Barrie after his monster extension. How much do you pay them?

It depeneds on a lot of things. First off paying for RFA years is usually cheaper than UFA years. But lets say Girard gets a bump in offense this upcoming year and hits 35 points while being as good as he usually his defensively. He'd be in the ~4 or 5's I'd guess. Makar is where the big number could come in. Now I'll assume he'll get ~40 pts next year and then maybe go up to ~50 the season after that. Then it comes down to his defensive game, if he's showing signs of being an elite #1 than Mcavoy's upcoming contract will probably be the baseline for Makars deal so I'd assume he could be from anywhere from 5-8 possibly.

 

[Gatorbait19]

You do realize that +/- isn't counted if you are scored on while Pking right?

Totally forgot. I withdraw that part of my argument.

 

[Iceberg]

I would like to know how far the Barrie lovers would go to re-sign him.

How much money and term would you pay him and what kind of trade protection would you be willing to give him?

 

[EdAVSfan]

A solid -59 for his career, with only 2 positive +/- seasons (2013-14 and 14-15).

Sure, some of his really bad years came when we were really bad, but also remember, he doesn’t play PK. So while many Dmen suffer in +/- due to playing PK, Barrie only plays ES and PP.

Did I read that last sentence properly?

 

[Gatorbait19]

Makar and Girard will both takes steps forward this season. THEY WILL NOT REPLACE BARRIE'S OFFENSIVE NUMBERS, however, if the right trade comes along, that brings in a good scoring option for the 2nd line and that player produces ~60 points, then you are getting similar point production from a different role while expecting that Makar and Girard can contribute about 25-35 points this year.

But here, for you and all of those that claim he is elite. What do elite players get paid? Elite money. So what happens when Barrie signs his contract extension and let's just say Makar get close to his offensive numbers while providing a substantial upgrade in the d-zone by the time he's due for a contract extension. Let's say both Makar and Girard overtake Barrie after his monster extension. How much do you pay them?

I was thinking that exact point total for Girard/Makar. You also have to add whoever our 6th dman’s offensive production (however little that may be).The 60 point player we can get on top of the rest of our cap space will more than replace Barrie’s production.

If we don’t trade him for a 2c like RNH (we’d prob have to add) or Nylander, I’d like to try and somehow acquire 14oa+ from the Yotes for him.

If we go with the package for current piece - let’s say Nylander ($7m) straight up (as an example but certainly other alternatives) - here’s what we could have:

Landy-MacK-Zucc/Skinner ($6-8m)
Nylander ($7m)-Hayes ($6-7m)-Rants
Jost-Soda-Compher

That’s a dangerous lineup, plus we’d have some money left over for a 6th dman. We haven’t even touched any of our picks/prospects.

If we go with picks/future assets - let’s say Yotes 14oa+ then we’ve got 2 really good options:

1. Similar to first proposal but more prospect driven and opens a lot of doors -

Landy-MacK-Zucc/Skinner ($6-8m)
Jost-Hayes ($6-7m)-Rants
Calvert-Soda-Compher

This however gives us 3 picks in the top 16 of the draft. We could select 3 really good players or we trade up with 14oa and 16oa and get 2 top 10 players.

2. Balls to the walls - Offer sheet Point or Marner ($11.5-12):

Landy-MacK-Zucc/Skinner ($6-8m)
Jost- Point ($12m)-Rants
Jost-Soda-Compher

Yes we give up 4 firsts but if we add someone of Marner/points caliber, those picks aren’t THAT valuable in comparison. This Barrie trade gives us 2-3 top picks in this year’s draft, making up for the prospects we’ll lose.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I would like to know how far the Barrie lovers would go to re-sign him.

How much money and term would you pay him and what kind of trade protection would you be willing to give him?

I made a post earlier in this thread talking about a couple comparables. Yandle who’s probably his closest one makes 6.28 per year on a contract signed a couple years ago. So including inflation Barries probably worth around ~7.5per. OEL just got signed to an 8.25per this year and he’ll probably be the highest end “comparable” you could make for him. Now granted Barrie is slightly better than him offensively while being a bit worse than him defensively. So I’d say Barries market value should be anywhere in the 7-8 range and I’d be ok with going up 8 for him.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

Nobody needs to replicate his offense from the back end if we can trade him for a forward who can be a dual threat behind MacKinnon. Barrie won't just disappear if we trade him, we will get something back.

Offense will suffer if there's no good puckmoving defenseman. Girard and Makar is not enough imo.

I think they will be good enough in the future but putting all the weight on them would be too much.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

Makar and Girard will both takes steps forward this season. THEY WILL NOT REPLACE BARRIE'S OFFENSIVE NUMBERS, however, if the right trade comes along, that brings in a good scoring option for the 2nd line and that player produces ~60 points, then you are getting similar point production from a different role while expecting that Makar and Girard can contribute about 25-35 points this year.

But here, for you and all of those that claim he is elite. What do elite players get paid? Elite money. So what happens when Barrie signs his contract extension and let's just say Makar get close to his offensive numbers while providing a substantial upgrade in the d-zone by the time he's due for a contract extension. Let's say both Makar and Girard overtake Barrie after his monster extension. How much do you pay them?

If Makar puts up Barrie numbers and plays solid defense, you pay him happily the 10 million he will get.

I doubt Girard will be ever in same tier, though. I hope I am wrong.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

Listen I (and probably the other trade-Barrie wagoners) won’t say that’s not a concern, it is.

But from what we’ve seen so far (yes it’s a small sample size), I think we all expect the breakthrough for Makar/Girard come sooner rather than later. Sure, it’s a gamble, but you’ve got to take some gambles here and there and this is essentially coming down to a question of who are you betting on - Makar/Girard or Barrie? I’m betting on Makar/Girard.

Obviously we’d feel the impact more next year than any other year, but that 1 year of growing pains (which does not mean we’re rebuilding or sacrificing next season), if any, is worth avoiding getting locked into a $7-8m x 5-8 year deal for Tyson. A player who’s value to us decreases each year of that contract.

Good teams have players that complement each other. Barrie doesn’t really complement Makar/Girard very much. Makar/Girard are offensively-minded Dmen that jump up into the play (as is Barrie). Get other Dmen that complement that style and do the things that Girard/Makar don’t excel in or focus on - physical play and stay at home defending.

The team instantly gets better defensively (no matter who we’d eventually get - say Nemo though), i don’t think that’s even a debate.

Then offensively, you’re much better off spending Barrie’s $7m+ elsewhere. It opens so many possibilities including an offersheet, or just signing/trading for an entire solid second line. No more kerfoots, ghettos, bourques or brassards.

You said it yourself, it's a big gamble. As much as we love Makar and Girard, I think giving them too much playing time now would be like throwing them to the wolves. I don't think they are ready. Sakic doesn't strike me as a gambler so I doubt he would be willing to take a risk like that.

Makar needs development year and as we all know, sometimes prospects struggle and it takes time to get going at NHL level. Even MacK struggled after a great start.


Concern about the team balance is true. We don't want to end up like Edmonton. All offense and no defense or our case all defense, no offense depth.. Balance is very important .

2019 draft will be very important for us. If we get Turcotte, it helps us a lot more than Byram would. Turcotte could give us much needed depth upfront.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

I would like to know how far the Barrie lovers would go to re-sign him.

How much money and term would you pay him and what kind of trade protection would you be willing to give him?

I've seen too many no trade clauses mess up the trades, so maybe i could give him no trade clause for few years but that's about it. I wouldn't give for the whole contract.

 

[Miri]

Nobody needs to replicate his offense from the back end if we can trade him for a forward who can be a dual threat behind MacKinnon. Barrie won't just disappear if we trade him, we will get something back.

But then some want to trade him for " low 1st and 2 depth forwards". Because reasons. Would love to see how any of those would replace his offensive numbers.

 

[Gatorbait19]

You said it yourself, it's a big gamble. As much as we love Makar and Girard, I think giving them too much playing time now would be like throwing them to the wolves. I don't think they are ready. Sakic doesn't strike me as a gambler so I doubt he would be willing to take a risk like that.

Makar needs development year and as we all know, sometimes prospects struggle and it takes time to get going at NHL level. Even MacK struggled after a great start.


Concern about the team balance is true. We don't want to end up like Edmonton. All offense and no defense or our case all defense, no offense depth.. Balance is very important .

2019 draft will be very important for us. If we get Turcotte, it helps us a lot more than Byram would. Turcotte could give us much needed depth upfront.

I did say it’s a gamble, but it’s a gamble on both sides. You’re gambling on Barrie and his contract (which will be either the largest or 2nd largest deal in team history), just like I am that Makar/Girard will be both ready and good.

I don’t think the “throwing them to the wolves” argument works here for a couple reasons. First, Girard already averaged 20mins/game last year and Bednar threw Makar out in defensive zone face offs in playoff OT. He’s already been thrown to the wolves and came out just fine. I’d argue it’d be throwing them to the wolves much more if we ask Girard/Makar to do things they aren’t suited for or not comfortable with yet - physical puck battles in front of the net, etc.

Regarding the balance thing, it’s not just balance offensively and defensively, but a balance amongst the defenders themselves and their skill sets. Too many offensively minded/suited Dmen, and not enough defense oriented defenders, and we’re a Ferrari trying to drive through an off-road course.

I do want Turcotte over Byram and pray he’s the answer, but either way, our team will be better constructed without Barrie’s massive contract (and hopefully the return we get for him).

 

[Gatorbait19]

But then some want to trade him for " low 1st and 2 depth forwards". Because reasons. Would love to see how any of those would replace his offensive numbers.

Reality is that even if Barrie’s on the team next year, he won’t be able to replicate his numbers from this year due to Makar’s increase in minutes (both ES and PP) and (likely) not playing with MacK (or at least decreased minutes with MacK).

I think that alone will reduce Barrie’s career high point total last year (59) to probably around 45. I think Makar will probably score 30ish and Girard should increase as well.

There’s a myriad of potential Tyson trades out there, but regardless of what we choose in return (say decent player like Nylander or 1st+), the cap space we get will allow us to get a 60pt forward. That, coupled with Makar’s point total more than makes up for Barrie’s offensive production. Even if it was a wash offensively (which I don’t think is the case, but for argument sake here), we’d be much better off b/c we’d be much improved defensively.

 

[Foxtail]

Zadorov +19
Girard +8
Johnson +8
Nemeth+5
Cole -1
Barrie -3 while being defensively sheltered and given all the primo time with the top line

All his points 59 while being a minus player well I'll be damned.

Anyone care to check the Avs record over the last 2 years with Barrie out of the lineup?

Come on guys do you think the front office doesn't know this. It's only going to get worse with Makar and Girard taking over and playing big minutes , trade him while we can be something useful for him

 

[Ivan13]

Mikko Rantanen was even in +/- in 17/18 with 84 points despite being sheltered and playing on the same line with Nathan MacKinnon. I guess he's not that great either. Patrick Nemeth was +25, I guess he is God among men. Or you know, +/- is a garbage stat that tells you nothing about an individual player, a concept even the casual NHL fans understand.

PS

I love this narrative that Tyson was sheltered, and how people dump on him because of this absurd narrative (he was used a #1 D and the horse of the D by Bednar as evidenced by usage and ES TOI), but at the same time they circle jerk and write sonnets about Mack and Mikko who basically were allowed to do any damn thing they wanted because Landeskog did all the heavy lifting, even playing the role of a centre defensively, and were used predominately in offensive situations, being used to their strengths to exploit matchups. If you want to dog on Ty, dog on everyone that fits the criteria.

But what takes the cake is not wanting to pay him what he is worth, and then at the same time arguing he should be traded for a one-dimensional primadonna winger in Nylander who is getting 7mil per season.

 

[Iceberg]

Offense will suffer if there's no good puckmoving defenseman. Girard and Makar is not enough imo.

I think they will be good enough in the future but putting all the weight on them would be too much.

I think Makar will be more than good enough, on his own, to replace Barrie's offense starting next season... for me this is the worst argument to keep Barrie.

Having both of them (Makar and Barrie) on the team putting up points from D is a much more compeling argument, IMO.