Value of: Tyler Toffoli

[blankall]

Without retention? Kadri trade was hockey trade, so that's pretty doubtful. Trochek? That trade was as bad as the Forsberg one. The Tatar trade is far more comparable.

With retention? You're not getting a player like Toffoli with 2.125 mil AAV for 3 playoff runs without paying through the nose.

Toffoli is also 30 in a few months and has broken 50 points once. One year of good hockey in the defensively awful north division doesn't change things as much as you think it does.

No team is giving up a top prospect for a complimentary piece. The Flames aren't even sure what their future will be, so they are the last team that should be doing that.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Toffoli is also 30 in a few months and has broken 50 points once. One year of good hockey in the defensively awful north division doesn't change things as much as you think it does.

No team is giving up a top prospect for a complimentary piece. The Flames aren't even sure what their future will be, so they are the last team that should be doing that.

What a predictable way to describe him on these boards. And who said anyone was?

That's why its unlikely a team is going to get him at 50% retention. He's already probably underpaid for what he brings, retention on top of that is what would be so expensive.

Its perfectly fine if Calgary doesn't have the cap space to afford him, its not like there aren't other teams out there. Montreal doesn't need to trade him either.

 

[blankall]

What a predictable way to describe him on these boards. And who said anyone was?

That's why its unlikely a team is going to get him at 50% retention. He's already probably underpaid for what he brings, retention on top of that is what would be so expensive.

Its perfectly fine if Calgary doesn't have the cap space to afford him, its not like there aren't other teams out there. Montreal doesn't need to trade him either.

Do what you want. No team is giving up a top prospect for a 30 year old player. It's just awful asset management. $2 million in retention doesn't really move the needle.

If he is traded, Toffoli will return a late 1st from a contender plus some other assets. The strength of the other assets will depend on whether Toffoli can get his game together this season before the trade deadline.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Do what you want. No team is giving up a top prospect for a 30 year old player. It's just awful asset management. $2 million in retention doesn't really move the needle.

If he is traded, Toffoli will return a late 1st from a contender plus some other assets. The strength of the other assets will depend on whether Toffoli can get his game together this season before the trade deadline.

Getting a 2nd line play-driving winger with term at 2 mil for 3 seasons always moves the needle for contenders, its just not worth it to the retaining team unless you really get a piece you want. Which never happens.

And Toffoli's game is fine, he's playing at around his normal career pace when healthy.

 

[blankall]

Getting a 2nd line play-driving winger with term at 2 mil for 3 seasons always moves the needle for contenders, its just not worth it to the retaining team unless you really get a piece you want. Which never happens.

And Toffoli's game is fine, he's playing at around his normal career pace when healthy.

So his normal career pace is 53 points then? Once again, not team is sending you a top prospect back for that. Late 1st+ is the market rate, and has been for quite a while.

The benefit of a top prospect making the roster is far greater than $2 million/year, because they are cost controlled until they hit UFA status. Once again, not team is trading their top prospects for Toffoli.

 

[Captain Mountain]

So his normal career pace is 53 points then? Once again, not team is sending you a top prospect back for that. Late 1st+ is the market rate, and has been for quite a while.

The benefit of a top prospect making the roster is far greater than $2 million/year, because they are cost controlled until they hit UFA status. Once again, not team is trading their top prospects for Toffoli.

Toffoli's P/60 this season is literally 6th highest out of his 11 NHL seasons.

And do me a favour and please read what I wrote, because you clearly not doing that.I don't expect Montreal to get a top prospect for Toffoli.

The benefit is only realized if that top prospect fits a teams window and will no doubt be as good as a player like Toffoli is now. I know this is HF boards, but that requires an optimistic outlook unless we're talking about a top-20 or top-30 prospect, which we aren't.

 

[jfhabs]

Do what you want. No team is giving up a top prospect for a 30 year old player. It's just awful asset management. $2 million in retention doesn't really move the needle.

If he is traded, Toffoli will return a late 1st from a contender plus some other assets. The strength of the other assets will depend on whether Toffoli can get his game together this season before the trade deadline.

Depends what you're definition of top prospect means. Do you consider Pelletier and Zary (arguably flames top2 prospects) as top prospects? I think they are probably off the table for Toffoli because they are closer to help the Flames then the player picked with a late first, but I wouldn't consider them top prospect/blue chip prospects. FYI, there's no one in the habs prospect pool I'd consider a blue chip either. Guhle is probably a sure shot, but lacks a bit of upside IMO. Similarly to Pelletier.

For me a top prospect, is a top prospect league wide. Guys like Power, Beniers, Byfield, Wright, etc. There aren't a ton of them by definition.

But I think most agree (you included) he's worth a first from a playoff team with a small add.

 

[blankall]

Depends what you're definition of top prospect means. Do you consider Pelletier and Zary (arguably flames top2 prospects) as top prospects? I think they are probably off the table for Toffoli because they are closer to help the Flames then the player picked with a late first, but I wouldn't consider them top prospect/blue chip prospects. FYI, there's no one in the habs prospect pool I'd consider a blue chip either. Guhle is probably a sure shot, but lacks a bit of upside IMO. Similarly to Pelletier.

For me a top prospect, is a top prospect league wide. Guys like Power, Beniers, Byfield, Wright, etc. There aren't a ton of them by definition.

But I think most agree (you included) he's worth a first from a playoff team with a small add.

The Flames aren't trading Pelletier or Zary, and I was referring to a franchises top prospects. It would be an absolute absurdity to ever consider a league wide "AKA blue chip" prospect in a Toffoli trade. I doubt any franchise trades prospects of even that level, unless they have way too many of them. The Flames have devoted a lot of resources to developing those players, and having them enter the lineup as middle six cost controlled forwards is a huge benefit.

Once again, Toffoli clearly falls into that late 1st+ category of acquisition.

If you are looking at the Flames as a trade partner, Pelletier, Zary, Valimaki, Corronto, etc...are all off the table, unless it's an Adam Fox scenario where they demand out. The upsides to having a single one develop into a cost controlled 2nd pairing d-man or 2 liner are just too huge.

 

[blankall]

Toffoli's P/60 this season is literally 6th highest out of his 11 NHL seasons.

And do me a favour and please read what I wrote, because you clearly not doing that.I don't expect Montreal to get a top prospect for Toffoli.

The benefit is only realized if that top prospect fits a teams window and will no doubt be as good as a player like Toffoli is now. I know this is HF boards, but that requires an optimistic outlook unless we're talking about a top-20 or top-30 prospect, which we aren't.

Yeah no. With the new NHL cap set up and draft rules, teams need a constant inflow of prospects into their system or they are F-ed. The only time a team goes all in now is if you have a Crosby that you want to get one last run out of. The Flames aren't there. For all we know both Gaudreau and Tkachuk could not re-sign next year, and then they've traded away their top prospect for......Toffoli, who is 30, and for two more years...when they are not competing.

It's all a moot point anyways, as Toffoli is not an all in player to begin with. Once again late 1st+.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Yeah no. With the new NHL cap set up and draft rules, teams need a constant inflow of prospects into their system or they are F-ed. The only time a team goes all in now is if you have a Crosby that you want to get one last run out of. The Flames aren't there. For all we know both Gaudreau and Tkachuk could not re-sign next year, and then they've traded away their top prospect for......Toffoli, who is 30, and for two more years...when they are not competing.

It's all a moot point anyways, as Toffoli is not an all in player to begin with. Once again late 1st+.

You're still clearly not reading and have a very loose definition of "top prospect".

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Without retention? Kadri trade was hockey trade, so that's pretty doubtful. Trochek? That trade was as bad as the Forsberg one. The Tatar trade is far more comparable.

With retention? You're not getting a player like Toffoli with 2.125 mil AAV for 3 playoff runs without paying through the nose.

Then you can have a 1st 2nd and like Kuznetsov. Nothing here justifies moving a prospect of Coronato's caliber

 

[Captain Mountain]

Then you can have a 1st 2nd and like Kuznetsov. Nothing here justifies moving a prospect of Coronato's caliber

...isn't that a much better return? Like, even with Kuznetsov's off-ice question marks, odds are Coronato won't be nearly as good as him.

 

[VaporTrail]

How about Toffoli straight up for an injured/Covid-infected Dustin Tokarski ? Re-unite The Toker back with the Habs

 

[ole ole]

How about Toffoli straight up for an injured/Covid-infected Dustin Tokarski ? Re-unite The Toker back with the Habs

Tokarski is too much.
Just send us your 1st instead.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

...isn't that a much better return? Like, even with Kuznetsov's off-ice question marks, odds are Coronato won't be nearly as good as him.

Yan Kuznetsov has off-ice question marks?

 

[deaderhead28]

Tyler Toffoli trade value will be similar to when Kings traded him to Canucks. Toffoli in exchange for Tim Schaller, prospect Tyler Madden, a 2020 second-round pick plus a conditional 2022 fourth-round selection.

 

[IGGY2JOHNNY]

From the flames I’d offer Jeremie Poirer + one of our 2nds + lower level prospect / 4th. Not sure if Poirer fits a big need for Montreal long term but he’s our best prospect from QC which always entices the habs lol

 

[ole ole]

From the flames I’d offer Jeremie Poirer + one of our 2nds + lower level prospect / 4th. Not sure if Poirer fits a big need for Montreal long term but he’s our best prospect from QC which always entices the habs lol

You keep your crap and we will keep Toffoli

 

[nilan30]

Last time Boston got Ryder from the Habs it ended up working out pretty good for them

 

[Captain Mountain]

Yan Kuznetsov has off-ice question marks?

Wait, you mean Yan Kuznetsov? Oh, then that's definitely not worth Toffoli at 50%.

 

[alasania94]

That's cool. We're also assuming that:

1) Coronato has the same upside (offensively he does, but he's got size concerns) and will reach that upside.
2) A 31 year old Martin Erat and a 29/30 year old Toffoli are the same player (Toffoli's probably better).
3) Erat with a cap hit of 4.5 mil (in a 70, 64, 69 mil cap era) and Toffoli with a 2.125 mil cap hit (in a 81.5 mil cap era) is comparable (it very clearly is not).
4) Toffoli will immediately fall of a cliff like Erat.

It was bad trade that ended up looking much worse for Washington. Doesn't mean the outcome was fait accompli.

^

 

[QCNords]

We gonna retain on Gally, Price and possibly Petry, dont think Toffoli need retention to get something decent.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Wait, you mean Yan Kuznetsov? Oh, then that's definitely not worth Toffoli at 50%.

Best comparable to Toffoli @50% I can find in recent history is Versteeg to Chicago. He returned 2 average prospects and a 5th. So how can you justify Coronato?

 

[Captain Mountain]

Best comparable to Toffoli @50% I can find in recent history is Versteeg to Chicago. He returned 2 average prospects and a 5th. So how can you justify Coronato?

I didn't? I'm pretty sure I said that its likely his name was inadvertently not excluded.

And Versteeg is a pretty bad comparison, his game then wasn't even close to where Toffoli's is right now. Ignoring underlying stuff, he was coming off a season he played 10 games and Toffoli is coming off a season where he was one of the better goal scorers in the NHL. You want to talk about Hoffman then we can talk, but come on.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

I didn't? I'm pretty sure I said that its likely his name was inadvertently not excluded.

And Versteeg is a pretty bad comparison, his game then wasn't even close to where Toffoli's is right now. Ignoring underlying stuff, he was coming off a season he played 10 games and Toffoli is coming off a season where he was one of the better goal scorers in the NHL. You want to talk about Hoffman then we can talk, but come on.

If you can find an example of a multi year deal with a large percentage of retention for a similar caliber player than by all means. Jeff Carter is like the next best example and he only got some conditional mid picks