Blue Jays Discussion: Turn out the lights, the season's over.

[Cor]

The way this is going, I’m gonna put money on the Rays tonight

 

[Suntouchable13]

Lol. Dodgers are a bunch of choke artists.

 

[jcollins]

Giles wouldn't have helped LAD, because he'd have been sitting in the pen with the rest of their relievers not getting used.

Manager cost them the game.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Dodgers could’ve used Giles. Wouldn’t be shocked if they come calling when the jays shop him this winter.

Josiah Gray, DJ Peters and Edwin Rios and you have yourself a Giles.

 

[Superstar]

Giles wouldn't have helped LAD, because he'd have been sitting in the pen with the rest of their relievers not getting used.

Manager cost them the game.

Yep, seems like Roberts was more concerned about pumping up Kershaw than doing the right thing to help his team win.

 

[theaub]

The way this is going, I’m gonna put money on the Rays tonight

Rays/Nats WS, loser moves to Montreal.

 

[Woodman19]

Josiah Gray, DJ Peters and Edwin Rios and you have yourself a Giles.

I think I want my money back....

 

[Discoverer]

Yep, seems like Roberts was more concerned about pumping up Kershaw than doing the right thing to help his team win.

Which relievers didn't pitch yesterday who are better than Clayton Kershaw?

 

[BlueForever75]

Which relievers didn't pitch yesterday who are better than Clayton Kershaw?

Ultimately I don't think there is a pitcher in the LA bullpen that is better the Kershaw as an overall pitcher. But when you give someone an opportunity to do something that they are not accustomed to like pitching Kershaw on short rest and in the middle of the game. Mental toughness and focus is needed for that. Im not saying Kershaw doesn't have it, but hyping yourself for a start and prepping yourself for one is different then coming in 2/3rds in the middle of a game. Different preparation.

So no the Dodgers probably didn't have a reliever that has better stuff then Kershaw overall. But I think they were mentally ready and better prepared to carry out their roles then Kershaw was. With a 3-1 lead there was not reason for the Dodgers to not go to the bullpen to its regular relievers. That's why you have them. For these type of situations.

Sorry bad call by manager. Game lost is on him.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Mike Trout and the Others Once Again Fail to Make the Playoffs

To have the best position player in baseball, and not sniff contention year after year...

Invest in pitching and pitching development. At all levels of the organization. At all times. Rinse and repeat.

I give the Shapiro infrastructure some benefit of the doubt, but I do worry that in six years, I’ll be sitting here saying “dang, those Vlad/Bo teams were fun, but never won a damn thing because the pitching was doodoo.”

 

[BlueForever75]

Mike Trout and the Others Once Again Fail to Make the Playoffs

To have the best position player in baseball, and not sniff contention year after year...

Invest in pitching and pitching development. At all levels of the organization. At all times. Rinse and repeat.

I give the Shapiro infrastructure some benefit of the doubt, but I do worry that in six years, I’ll be sitting here saying “dang, those Vlad/Bo teams were fun, but never won a damn thing because the pitching was doodoo.”

Give it sometime, Shapiro and Atkins have a track record of building the organization with depth. There shrewd drafting and trades have made us one of the best prospect pools in baseball. Yes the pitching is a little thin for the immediate future. But we have some great prospects at the lower levels that will be players in the next 2-4 years. That being said both Vladdy and Bo are still young enough that in their prime they will have the fruits of Shapiro and Atkins to play with.

Between now and then, they still need to continue to find players as they have been and hope for a home run here and there. Its a lot to look forward to but in them I trust. The Angels have been poor in decision making since Trout made it big. As we have seen with this Blue Jays regime, they are not afraid to lose at the cost of the future. They let Bautista, Donaldson, EE, Stroman and Sanchez all go for what seems to be minimal returns but only the future will tell if it was the right moves to let the younger players develop at the MLB level and those acquired develop under their watchful eye.

Give it a chance. It is moving in the right direction and I like our chances better then these other teams that were spoken of in that article.

 

[Eyedea]

Mike Trout and the Others Once Again Fail to Make the Playoffs

To have the best position player in baseball, and not sniff contention year after year...

Invest in pitching and pitching development. At all levels of the organization. At all times. Rinse and repeat.

I give the Shapiro infrastructure some benefit of the doubt, but I do worry that in six years, I’ll be sitting here saying “dang, those Vlad/Bo teams were fun, but never won a damn thing because the pitching was doodoo.”

Buttt you can invest in pitching without the need to draft them. Cubs and Stros 101.

 

[kb]

Mike Trout and the Others Once Again Fail to Make the Playoffs

To have the best position player in baseball, and not sniff contention year after year...

Invest in pitching and pitching development. At all levels of the organization. At all times. Rinse and repeat.

I give the Shapiro infrastructure some benefit of the doubt, but I do worry that in six years, I’ll be sitting here saying “dang, those Vlad/Bo teams were fun, but never won a damn thing because the pitching was doodoo.”

They have some serious upside kids in the lower minors. Having said that, the washout rate on pitchers is ridiculous. Mark Appel anyone?

I think the Jays are banking on up and coming position players to be able to get the pitching they need.

Pretty sure you could trade a box of Count Chocula to get Price back at this point.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Buttt you can invest in pitching without the need to draft them. Cubs and Stros 101.

100%

Good organizations are able to make average prospects good, 40FV pitchers into 50PV pitchers, and see diamonds in the rough everywhere. Just look at Tampa for godsakes. Its ridiculous.

Give it sometime, Shapiro and Atkins have a track record of building the organization with depth. There shrewd drafting and trades have made us one of the best prospect pools in baseball. Yes the pitching is a little thin for the immediate future. But we have some great prospects at the lower levels that will be players in the next 2-4 years. That being said both Vladdy and Bo are still young enough that in their prime they will have the fruits of Shapiro and Atkins to play with.

Between now and then, they still need to continue to find players as they have been and hope for a home run here and there. Its a lot to look forward to but in them I trust. The Angels have been poor in decision making since Trout made it big. As we have seen with this Blue Jays regime, they are not afraid to lose at the cost of the future. They let Bautista, Donaldson, EE, Stroman and Sanchez all go for what seems to be minimal returns but only the future will tell if it was the right moves to let the younger players develop at the MLB level and those acquired develop under their watchful eye.

Give it a chance. It is moving in the right direction and I like our chances better then these other teams that were spoken of in that article.

That's the problem. Yes, Eric Pardinho could be developed into a Shane Bieber, but if he breaks out in 2024, I've wasted four years of cheap Vlad\Bo.

If they're smart, they'll buy this winter and next.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

They have some serious upside kids in the lower minors. Having said that, the washout rate on pitchers is ridiculous. Mark Appel anyone?

I think the Jays are banking on up and coming position players to be able to get the pitching they need.

Pretty sure you could trade a box of Count Chocula to get Price back at this point.

Its about lining up a window. No doubt there's lots of high ceiling arms in the org currently.

 

[kb]

Its about lining up a window. No doubt there's lots of high ceiling arms in the org currently.

Exactly. The pitching window is currently behind the position player window. Ideally, you want the pitching to be even or slightly ahead.

Which is why I could see some prospect for prospect trades this winter. And if they lose Shapiro and get Dombrowski, I can see the system being gutted in short order.

 

[BlueForever75]

100%

Good organizations are able to make average prospects good, 40FV pitchers into 50PV pitchers, and see diamonds in the rough everywhere. Just look at Tampa for godsakes. Its ridiculous.



That's the problem. Yes, Eric Pardinho could be developed into a Shane Bieber, but if he breaks out in 2024, I've wasted four years of cheap Vlad\Bo.

If they're smart, they'll buy this winter and next.

Not if they are smart and lock up both Bichette and Vladdy long term like they did back in the Wells, Rios era. Yes those players didn't work out, but its a risk of business that you need to take. Look at the Braves with Acuna!!!! Lock up both to 8-10 year deals for 100 million dollar deals total each. Hope they are bargains later. That's what I would do.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Not if they are smart and lock up both Bichette and Vladdy long term like they did back in the Wells, Rios era. Yes those players didn't work out, but its a risk of business that you need to take. Look at the Braves with Acuna!!!! Lock up both to 8-10 year deals for 100 million dollar deals total each. Hope they are bargains later. That's what I would do.

That's a wretched example.

Further, the strategy in general is predicated on the players actually wanting to sign such deals.

 

[theaub]

But really smh at how bad the Acuna (and Albies) contracts are

 

[BlueForever75]

But really smh at how bad the Acuna (and Albies) contracts are

Bad for the player? Or Organization?

To me there is risk on both sides. Organization takes a risk paying a player long term that doesn't develop into much of anything see Rios. For the player there is risk that they outplay their contract, see Acuna.

But there is also reward, a player is guaranteed money for the long term with risk of injury. The team can pay an all-star lower salary compared to what others are making with same stats.

Are the Acuna and Albies contracts really bad? That's something to be seen. Someone will come out on top. Either the organization or player. Time will tell.

 

[theaub]

Bad for the player? Or Organization?

To me there is risk on both sides. Organization takes a risk paying a player long term that doesn't develop into much of anything see Rios. For the player there is risk that they outplay their contract, see Acuna.

But there is also reward, a player is guaranteed money for the long term with risk of injury. The team can pay an all-star lower salary compared to what others are making with same stats.

Are the Acuna and Albies contracts really bad? That's something to be seen. Someone will come out on top. Either the organization or player. Time will tell.

Ronald Acuña Jr.’s New Contract is Staggering
Ozzie Albies’s New Deal Could Be the Worst an MLB Player Has Ever Signed
Here’s Why the Ozzie Albies Deal Was Terrible

Firstly, these are two players who already had established themselves at the MLB level. Acuna's 3.7 WAR season as a 20 year old is one of the highest of all-time for that age, and Albies put up 5.7 WAR over 900 PA as a 20/21 year old.

By WAR dollars, Acuna was worth $45M this year. His deal is $100M/8 with two additional team options @ $17M per, so of the guaranteed portion he is already almost halfway there after one season. He will be 31 at the end of the option years so there is no albatross backend of the contract.

Albies was worth $37M this year. His deal is $35M/7 with two additional team options @ $7M per. He could just not show up for the next six years and the Braves would have surplus value on his contract.

They are terrible, horrible, no good, very bad contracts.

e: Just to add onto this, the truly bad part of these extensions is how many FA years they give away. The nature of the game is that good players will easily outperform their pre-arb/arb years, but I believe the Acuna contract gives up 4 FA years and Albies 3, for way, way, waaaaaay below market value.

 

[phillipmike]

Lost in all this is Martin goes out with the Dodgers. Will be interesting to see if he retires.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Bad for the player? Or Organization?

To me there is risk on both sides. Organization takes a risk paying a player long term that doesn't develop into much of anything see Rios. For the player there is risk that they outplay their contract, see Acuna.

But there is also reward, a player is guaranteed money for the long term with risk of injury. The team can pay an all-star lower salary compared to what others are making with same stats.

Are the Acuna and Albies contracts really bad? That's something to be seen. Someone will come out on top. Either the organization or player. Time will tell.

We in fact do not need time to tell. Those contracts are going to(already are) provide ridiculous surplus value.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Lost in all this is Martin goes out with the Dodgers. Will be interesting to see if he retires.

We should sign him as a closer replacement after we trade Ken Giles. He's essentially Ryan Tepera.

 

[Discoverer]

Ronald Acuña Jr.’s New Contract is Staggering
Ozzie Albies’s New Deal Could Be the Worst an MLB Player Has Ever Signed
Here’s Why the Ozzie Albies Deal Was Terrible

Firstly, these are two players who already had established themselves at the MLB level. Acuna's 3.7 WAR season as a 20 year old is one of the highest of all-time for that age, and Albies put up 5.7 WAR over 900 PA as a 20/21 year old.

By WAR dollars, Acuna was worth $45M this year. His deal is $100M/8 with two additional team options @ $17M per, so of the guaranteed portion he is already almost halfway there after one season. He will be 31 at the end of the option years so there is no albatross backend of the contract.

Albies was worth $37M this year. His deal is $35M/7 with two additional team options @ $7M per. He could just not show up for the next six years and the Braves would have surplus value on his contract.

They are terrible, horrible, no good, very bad contracts.

e: Just to add onto this, the truly bad part of these extensions is how many FA years they give away. The nature of the game is that good players will easily outperform their pre-arb/arb years, but I believe the Acuna contract gives up 4 FA years and Albies 3, for way, way, waaaaaay below market value.

The Albies contract is mind-bogglingly bad. It pays him $15 million for his three arb years, which is maybe half of what he likely would have gotten through arbitration, and the rewards for taking that hit is... and extra four years at $7 million each, the last two of which aren't even guaranteed if he has a catastrophic injury or something.

If you literally double his salary in every year of the contract, I would probably look at it and say it's a decent extension for both sides; it would look fairly cheap for the team, but you could at least understand the player taking it for the added insurance down the road. But holy shit, that's if you DOUBLE the contract.

Does he still have the same agent? If so, how? And how did the agent ever manage to become an agent?