Turcotte- time to worry?

[mysterman2]

Was totally optimistic he was going to be a Bergeron type two way center and followed him through NCAA and his WJC performance which was encouraging but now development seemingly stalled. Really hope this kid can make the NHL and be a contributor but week by week those hopes diminishing and he is not really not even standing out at the AHL level. Wondering if he is nursing some injuries given his history but Right now he is looking more and more like a bust sad to say. Im I being pessimistic here? I am totally open to hearing something optimistic about his development. Maybe something Im missing or not seeing?

2019 NHL Entry Draft Picks at hockeydb.com

Click to read more...

 

[ibleedkings]

Frankly I’m worried with most of our prospects not just Turcotte. Kings are the black hole for developing talent unfortunately.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Was totally optimistic he was going to be a Bergeron type two way center and followed him through NCAA and his WJC performance which wa encouraging but now development seemingly stalled. Really hope this kid can make the NHL and be a contributor but week by week those hopes diminishing and he is not really not even standing out at the AHL level. Wondering if he is nursing some injuries given his history but Right now he is looking more and more like a bust sad to say. Im I being pessimistic here? I am totally open to hearing something optimistic about his development. Maybe something Im missing or not seeing?

2019 NHL Entry Draft Picks at hockeydb.com

If you're basing this on raw production, that's your problem. Really really have to catch an Ontario game, dude is everywhere.

In addition, you'll notice everyone producing more than him has the gap nearly completely made up by powerplay points--because this organization is so good at player development the PP main unit doesn't include him. So I guess from an external development standpoint, yeah, maybe worry about that. Just like the NHL club is prioritizing vets...so goes the AHL club.

Keep in mind this is a guy playing a HARD two-way game vs. men right now and getting better all the time, he's just so reckless he gets banged up and until he has his full man strength we'll have to get used to that. Kind of dude who will excel at the NHL level because he's an elite three-zones player with excellent puck support and he doesn't really get that kind of 'flow' in the AHL. I can't even count how many crazy passes the guy made over the last few games that linemates couldn't finish.

 

[DoktorJeep]

He’s looking like a guy who will need 2-3 years to hold down a job on an NHL lineup. I think his projection is still top six, not a role player. But it’s going to be a D+4 years situation, which is what all but a handful of players require.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Frankly I’m worried with most of our prospects not just Turcotte. Kings are the black hole for developing talent unfortunately.

Actually this is problem the more streamlined view--if you're worried about Turcotte, you should be worried about EVERYONE.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

He’s looking like a guy who will need 2-3 years to hold down a job on an NHL lineup. I think his projection is still top six, not a role player. But it’s going to be a D+4 years situation, which is what all but a handful of players require.

Yeah people aren't going to like that answer but he's going t need some time to reach peak effectiveness.

That being said, he CAN play in the nhl right now on raw ability, and SHOULD have already had at least a callup. That's an organizational f***up, not a Turcotte fault.

 

[Ray Martyniuk]

Was totally optimistic he was going to be a Bergeron type two way center and followed him through NCAA and his WJC performance which wa encouraging but now development seemingly stalled. Really hope this kid can make the NHL and be a contributor but week by week those hopes diminishing and he is not really not even standing out at the AHL level. Wondering if he is nursing some injuries given his history but Right now he is looking more and more like a bust sad to say. Im I being pessimistic here? I am totally open to hearing something optimistic about his development. Maybe something Im missing or not seeing?

2019 NHL Entry Draft Picks at hockeydb.com

I'm worried too...I've it a million times where the player thinks he's ready for the next step and then struggles or falls on their asses...Turcotte should have stayed in college for 2 more seasons...I can say that of most of LA prospects...Madden needed to put on more mass and strength,2 more years of college would done a World of good. 2 more for Fagemo in Sweden, playing a ton and coming over scoring 30 plus goals...2 more for Kupari to play first line centre in Finland and not Ontario...Byfield needs to get his head outta his ass and not think of himself as the next great one! At this rate he'll be Lucky to the 3rd line centre on the Kings...as for Vilardi...well shite he's not a 1st or 2nd line centre but maybe a 3rd line RWinger if he can develop some strength...I can go on and on and on

 

[DoktorJeep]

Actually this is problem the more streamlined view--if you're worried about Turcotte, you should be worried about EVERYONE.

Agreed, Turcotte’s ups and downs is a symptom, not the disease. The wings were able to stash Datsuyk and Zetterberg in Grand Rapids till they were 24 years old because the big club was stocked and rolling.

Unfortunately, the Kings big club has steadily shat the bed in one way or the other since 2015. So these kids have a microscope on them where every projected game night lineup is scrutinized to the nth degree.

 

[DoktorJeep]

Yeah people aren't going to like that answer but he's going t need some time to reach peak effectiveness.

That being said, he CAN play in the nhl right now on raw ability, and SHOULD have already had at least a callup. That's an organizational f***up, not a Turcotte fault.

You hear players talk all the time about gaining man strength and thickening out the body. It is what it is, a function of time and experience.

 

[mysterman2]

That being said, he CAN play in the nhl right now on raw ability, and SHOULD have already had at least a callup. That's an organizational f***up, not a Turcotte fault.

totally agreed....no reason he shouldnt be given a shot to be given a taste or see what he can do- seeing tynan get a callup and the other non producers never be scratched is philosophically puzzling for sure. In the same spot as kupari- could he have matched all of Kuparis 6 pts and/or make better decisions than Kupari?

 

[KingsFan7824]

If you're basing this on raw production, that's your problem. Really really have to catch an Ontario game, dude is everywhere.

In addition, you'll notice everyone producing more than him has the gap nearly completely made up by powerplay points--because this organization is so good at player development the PP main unit doesn't include him. So I guess from an external development standpoint, yeah, maybe worry about that. Just like the NHL club is prioritizing vets...so goes the AHL club.

Keep in mind this is a guy playing a HARD two-way game vs. men right now and getting better all the time, he's just so reckless he gets banged up and until he has his full man strength we'll have to get used to that. Kind of dude who will excel at the NHL level because he's an elite three-zones player with excellent puck support and he doesn't really get that kind of 'flow' in the AHL. I can't even count how many crazy passes the guy made over the last few games that linemates couldn't finish.

Even in the AHL, and even though it is a developmental league, you cannot give coaches veteran options. Being paid a lot of money to coach makes you want to win, because that's how you keep your job. And coaches, almost universally, will trust a vet over a young guy every day.

Frk is a holdover. You bring in a former AHL MVP in Tynan. Bring Burke in a trade. Re-signing Sutter again. Johnson. Sending Wagner down. Then of course Danault, Arvidsson, and Edler on the Kings. Lizotte. You can't do any of that if you want young guys to play. Spots have to be specifically opened up. The vet you bring in to occupy the 2nd line spot, is unlikely going to be pushed to the 4th line, during the season, when the young guy shows he's a 1st line talent. If you're bringing in a vet, it has to be a 4th line vet, to occupy a 4th line spot.

Not that Sutter is the 1C with the Reign, but Tynan is. Ok, you get a more winning environment because of Tynan, but you have 100 C prospects, why are you bringing in an AHL vet like that? You don't want the Reign wining because of Tynan and Frk.

The Ducks did damn near nothing over the summer, almost literally nothing, and that's why they have so many young guys playing and contributing. Their coach has no other players to play. The youth has to play. Doughty had to open his big mouth at the end of last season though, and so instead of having a disgruntled Doughty stuck in LA, the organization actually spent money.

 

[Schmooley]

totally agreed....no reason he shouldnt be given a shot to be given a taste or see what he can do- seeing tynan get a callup and the other non producers never be scratched is philosophically puzzling for sure. In the same spot as kupari- could he have matched all of Kuparis 6 pts and/or make better decisions than Kupari?

Why pick on Kupari? Kopitar is a minus player, Danault only has 4 goals, Lizotte only has 7 points, Brown 4 goals on the top line, AA 3, Moore 6 points, Grundstrom 8 points. Hed being doing just as well in the NHL as a center or winger right now than most of these guys. If he got a chance and proved he wasnt better then you start to worry

 

[DoktorJeep]

Even in the AHL, and even though it is a developmental league, you cannot give coaches veteran options. Being paid a lot of money to coach makes you want to win, because that's how you keep your job. And coaches, almost universally, will trust a vet over a young guy every day.

Frk is a holdover. You bring in a former AHL MVP in Tynan. Bring Burke in a trade. Re-signing Sutter again. Johnson. Sending Wagner down. Then of course Danault, Arvidsson, and Edler on the Kings. Lizotte. You can't do any of that if you want young guys to play. Spots have to be specifically opened up. The vet you bring in to occupy the 2nd line spot, is unlikely going to be pushed to the 4th line, during the season, when the young guy shows he's a 1st line talent. If you're bringing in a vet, it has to be a 4th line vet, to occupy a 4th line spot.

Not that Sutter is the 1C with the Reign, but Tynan is. Ok, you get a more winning environment because of Tynan, but you have 100 C prospects, why are you bringing in an AHL vet like that? You don't want the Reign wining because of Tynan and Frk.

The Ducks did damn near nothing over the summer, almost literally nothing, and that's why they have so many young guys playing and contributing. Their coach has no other players to play. The youth has to play. Doughty had to open his big mouth at the end of last season though, and so instead of having a disgruntled Doughty stuck in LA, the organization actually spent money.

Doughty and Kopitar cost more than the entire Reign roster. When you sink so much into a couple of guys, their opinions will have an outsized effect.

If things aren’t working against expectations at the top, everything underneath is misaligned because holes are filled using patchwork that can’t be relied upon for any stretch of time when under moderate use.

 

[Telos]

From what I've seen Turcotte has looked good in Ontario. He would have had a cup of coffee by now if we weren't so log jammed, but so far he still looks top 6 and has a lot of potential left. It is still way too early to worry about Turcotte. Vilardi is the one that should be drawing worry. He has officially be moved to the wing so we will see if that jump starts anything or if it is time to ship him off.

 

[mysterman2]

Why pick on Kupari? Kopitar is a minus player, Danault only has 4 goals, Lizotte only has 7 points, Brown 4 goals on the top line, AA 3, Moore 6 points, Grundstrom 8 points. Hed being doing just as well in the NHL as a center or winger right now than most of these guys. If he got a chance and proved he wasnt better then you start to worry

Because he is a youngster in the prospect pool- Kopi is an all star legendary center. You are comparing proven NHL players tackling top line NHL talent to a 21 year old finnish kid who is shaky on decision making. Seriously----you think Kupari is on the same level as Kopi and Danualt?

With you on Lizotte and Brown. I could have used Lizotte as an an example as well. Brown is getting the legendary player treatment for his past accomplishments. I advocated he should be healthy scratched occasionally to give him some rest and give a young player top line time with Kopi.

 

[Mats26]

totally agreed....no reason he shouldnt be given a shot to be given a taste or see what he can do- seeing tynan get a callup and the other non producers never be scratched is philosophically puzzling for sure. In the same spot as kupari- could he have matched all of Kuparis 6 pts and/or make better decisions than Kupari?

Kupari led the AHL in scoring early in the season last year, got the call up, Kaliyev took over and led the Reign in points. Durzi led the D men in points this year. All are on the team now...see the trend.

Unless Turcotte gets his offense going he is just another Trevor Moore right now on the roster. Same goes for Fagemo, he needs to show more to get a call up. There is still time but the clock is ticking, only so many roster spots are available each year.

It's pretty sad that no prospect can beat out Lizotte for 4th line center right now but not surprised. Said it many times this team can't develop top 6 forwards. So now we have a log jam for bottom 6 forwards.

 

[Schmooley]

Because he is a youngster in the prospect pool- Kopi is an all star legendary center. You are comparing proven NHL players tackling top line NHL talent to a 21 year old finnish kid who is shaky on decision making. Seriously----you think Kupari is on the same level as Kopi and Danualt?

With you on Lizotte and Brown. I could have used Lizotte as an an example as well. Brown is getting the legendary player treatment for his past accomplishments. I advocated he should be healthy scratched occasionally to give him some rest and give a young player top line time with Kopi.

No I dont think Kupari is as good as Kopitar and Danault. I actually think Kupari is the odd man out and should be moved in a package for a scoring winger or left dman. My point was Kopitar isnt taking this team to the cup so why do they keep things revolving around him. They have 4 top 10 picks and 1 #11 in Vilardi and refuse to put any of them in a meaningful role.

 

[Schmooley]

It's pretty sad that no prospect can beat out Lizotte for 4th line center right now but not surprised.

JAD did it last season but it wasnt good enough. They havent given the chance to anyone else anyway. When he went down this season they gave the spot to Moore.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Doughty and Kopitar cost more than the entire Reign roster. When you sink so much into a couple of guys, their opinions will have an outsized effect.

If things aren’t working against expectations at the top, everything underneath is misaligned because holes are filled using patchwork that can’t be relied upon for any stretch of time when under moderate use.

Their opinion didn't mean anything in 18-19 when management started tearing things down. They could've kept trying, despite the team obviously quitting in that pre-season.

They were paid for the Cups. That's what happens. Nothing else was going to happen. Certainly not at the time of when they needed those new contracts. The one instance where it didn't happen was when Pietrangelo didn't stay in St.Louis. But then the Blues turned around and spent that money on other aging players, because they wanted to remain competitive. Which they have.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Kupari led the AHL in scoring early in the season last year, got the call up, Kaliyev took over and led the Reign in points. Durzi led the D men in points this year. All are on the team now...see the trend.

Unless Turcotte gets his offense going he is just another Trevor Moore right now on the roster. Same goes for Fagemo, he needs to show more to get a call up. There is still time but the clock is ticking, only so many roster spots are available each year.

It's pretty sad that no prospect can beat out Lizotte for 4th line center right now but not surprised. Said it many times this team can't develop top 6 forwards. So now we have a log jam for bottom 6 forwards.

Tha'ts the thing...it's smoke and mirrors

here's the Reign's NON-PP production for forwards:

Frk: 8g, 8a, 16p in 22 games. (.72 PPG)
Tynan: 4g, 11a, 15 pints in 16 games (.94)
Tkachev; 3g, 7a, 10p in 14 games (.714)
JAD: 1g, 5a, 6p in 18 games (.33)
Madden: 7g, 2a, 9p in 21 games (and 5-6 of those goals are just in the last few games) (.43)
Fagemo: 5g, 2a, 7p in 21 games (.33)
Dudas: 5g, 5a, 10p in 22 games (no pp points) (.45)
Burke: 2g, 5a, 7p in 16 games (.435)
Turcotte: 3g, 6a, 9p in 18 games (.5)

So, in a tougher role, and after being banged up with injuries, Turcotte is only getting outscored at even strength by AHL/KHL lifers/MVPs in their late 20s.

Just give him an actual role on the PP and it'll make people 'feel better' about his production.

 

[Mats26]

JAD did it last season but it wasnt good enough. They havent given the chance to anyone else anyway. When he went down this season they gave the spot to Moore.

JAD played well last year until he got hurt then Lizotte stole the spot from him. I get the point, when Lizotte was out recently, why put Moore there and not call up JAD who is producing in the AHL?

 

[DoktorJeep]

Their opinion didn't mean anything in 18-19 when management started tearing things down. They could've kept trying, despite the team obviously quitting in that pre-season.

They were paid for the Cups. That's what happens. Nothing else was going to happen. Certainly not at the time of when they needed those new contracts. The one instance where it didn't happen was when Pietrangelo didn't stay in St.Louis. But then the Blues turned around and spent that money on other aging players, because they wanted to remain competitive. Which they have.

I think their opinions back in 18/19 were why we saw guys like Pearson and Muzzin go first, instead of more senior guys like Brown and Carter. The tear down started from the bottom of the list of guys on one way, big money deals.

As far as having to overpay because of cup wins, I think Petro is the way going forward. Everyone has seen how much of an anchor it is to have contracts like Toews, Kane, Doughty, and Kopitar limiting your flexibility. Not saying that GMs won’t continue to overpay for UFA years, but with a stagnant cap, I doubt we see another Taveras situation for at least 5 years.

 

[mysterman2]

Tha'ts the thing...it's smoke and mirrors

here's the Reign's NON-PP production for forwards:

Frk: 8g, 8a, 16p in 22 games. (.72 PPG)
Tynan: 4g, 11a, 15 pints in 16 games (.94)
Tkachev; 3g, 7a, 10p in 14 games (.714)
JAD: 1g, 5a, 6p in 18 games (.33)
Madden: 7g, 2a, 9p in 21 games (and 5-6 of those goals are just in the last few games) (.43)
Fagemo: 5g, 2a, 7p in 21 games (.33)
Dudas: 5g, 5a, 10p in 22 games (no pp points) (.45)
Burke: 2g, 5a, 7p in 16 games (.435)
Turcotte: 3g, 6a, 9p in 18 games (.5)

So, in a tougher role, and after being banged up with injuries, Turcotte is only getting outscored at even strength by AHL/KHL lifers/MVPs in their late 20s.

Just give him an actual role on the PP and it'll make people 'feel better' about his production.

TY for some stat based reasons for optimism.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

TY for some stat based reasons for optimism.

It's basically the exact same thing he did at the WJC--just an insane play driver and strong producer at 5v5

 

[Mats26]

Tha'ts the thing...it's smoke and mirrors

here's the Reign's NON-PP production for forwards:

Frk: 8g, 8a, 16p in 22 games. (.72 PPG)
Tynan: 4g, 11a, 15 pints in 16 games (.94)
Tkachev; 3g, 7a, 10p in 14 games (.714)
JAD: 1g, 5a, 6p in 18 games (.33)
Madden: 7g, 2a, 9p in 21 games (and 5-6 of those goals are just in the last few games) (.43)
Fagemo: 5g, 2a, 7p in 21 games (.33)
Dudas: 5g, 5a, 10p in 22 games (no pp points) (.45)
Burke: 2g, 5a, 7p in 16 games (.435)
Turcotte: 3g, 6a, 9p in 18 games (.5)

So, in a tougher role, and after being banged up with injuries, Turcotte is only getting outscored at even strength by AHL/KHL lifers/MVPs in their late 20s.

Just give him an actual role on the PP and it'll make people 'feel better' about his production.

I really hope those stats translate to a productive top 5 pick who can drive a top line in the NHL. I just don't see it right now, he needs a lot more growth\maturity to make it. And it will take some time to get there.