Proposal: Trouba Mega Thread Part VII

[Whileee]

Between this and the argument from the other Jets fan that pace doesn't actually exist, I do wonder how it is you folks think draft choices develop into NHLers. Does your fanbase believe players pop out of nothingness, like a hockey-esque Big Bang? Is that what you're hoping saves Chevy from the Trouba situation?



A shame, then, that time is not at all on his side. He has just three weeks to determine who the wheels will fall off the rest of the way and who is legit. It's certainly possible Skjei or whoever's shine will have faded a bit by then, but not likely by so much that it drastically changes the mind of Gorton or another GM in a similar position.

Trouba, at this point, is a luxury for 29 other teams. He's not going to turn any one of them into a contender all by himself, and as such no GM will be willing to surrender an equal player just for the pleasure of stitching his name on the back of their club's jersey. A team will only give up something that doesn't hurt them; if Chevy continues to insist on that being a young D, it must follow, then, that it won't be one who drastically changes Winnipeg's fortunes, either.

A shame, because had Kev not been on it, I believe this situation would have resolved itself amicably for all parties involved a long time ago. Unfortunately it looks as though any resolution at this stage of the game will be a resounding loss for the Jets.

Ridiculous post. Why do you even care so much?

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

Ridiculous post. Why do you even care so much?

Ah, yes, the siren song of Jets fans when faced with incontrovertible logic. You all should recite that instead of the Canadian anthem before games, as it seems to be the most popular response to any sort of criticism these days.

 

[Avs44]

Ah, yes, the siren song of Jets fans when faced with incontrovertible logic. You all should recite that instead of the Canadian anthem before games, as it seems to be the most popular response to any sort of criticism these days.

I seem to recall you singing such a tune about Barrie during the summer. All that stuff about when Barrie's value would be highest, if Sakic would be smart enough to move him at the right time (because he was as good as gone), whether Sakic had learned from his past mistakes, and on, and on, and on. I remember you using words like "alas" to describe how badly Sakic had screwed up after things went to arbitration, how they'd lost the opportunity to sign Barrie to anything reasonable, and the overall "brutal job by the Avalanche..." (direct quote), because they were going to lose Barrie now.


My point is...have you ever considered that your "incontrovertible" logic might be wrong? Because you were every bit as confident in your infallible logic back then too, and the two scenario's you concocted due to Sakic's abysmal job - trading Barrie for a mediocre return because he waited too long, or signing Barrie to a bridge deal then losing him in the future - didn't come true.

 

[Riptide]

Man, this whole thing makes me think the pendulum has swung too far in the owners' favor. It's absurd that the Jets can basically ruin Trouba's career because he wants to work somewhere else. We would think this a massive violation of somebody's rights if it happened outside of hockey. It's one thing if the Jets are waiting for the right trade, but if they're doing this to get back at Trouba, that's unacceptable. The problem is the latter looks exactly like the former from the outside.

There should be some kind of very expensive compensatory mechanism for a player to leave a team he doesn't want to play for. Or the player should be able to petition the league, and the league should monitor the situation and make sure the team is making a good-faith effort to find a trade.

I don't think the issue is so much that he "wants to play somewhere else" but that he wants to have some sort of say in where that "somewhere else" actually is. The fact that he wants out sucks for everyone. The fact that he wants to have say in where he's moved to is absurd.

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

I seem to recall you singing such a tune about Barrie during the summer.

I was, yes- and Sakic somehow managed to mangle even my lowest expectations.

All that stuff about when Barrie's value would be highest, if Sakic would be smart enough to move him at the right time (because he was as good as gone), whether Sakic had learned from his past mistakes, and on, and on, and on. I remember you using words like "alas" to describe how badly Sakic had screwed up after things went to arbitration, how they'd lost the opportunity to sign Barrie to anything reasonable, and the overall "brutal job by the Avalanche..." (direct quote), because they were going to lose Barrie now.

If you want to consider signing Tyson Barrie right to UFA a win, I can't really stop you. Ultimately, his agent won that battle, and the Avs are worse off long-term for it. They neither get team control next time his contract up, nor did they save an appreciable amount of cap space. Make no mistake; Sakic was taken to school.

My point is...have you ever considered that your "incontrovertible" logic might be wrong? Because you were every bit as confident in your infallible logic back then too, and the two scenario's you concocted due to Sakic's abysmal job - trading Barrie for a mediocre return because he waited too long, or signing Barrie to a bridge deal then losing him in the future - didn't come true.

Well, except for "signing Barrie to a bridge deal then losing him in the future" being exactly what appears to be the case. Otherwise, you're totally right...

As said, Sakic lost that little chess match. His team is also a mess for the third straight year as GM, and five out of six years since he's been in the front office.

There are actually a lot of parallels between Sakic's (mis)management and Chevy's tenure in Winnipeg to date; both have promised little and delivered less, all while their respective fanbases cling to the draft and the future and so on and so forth as evidence they're going to be real good one day, just you wait.

Oh, and to revive this ancillary discussion since you seem to like reveling in the past: how about that Ryan O'Reilly? His team-leading 8 points is more than Zadorov, Grigorenko and Compher combined. Zadorov is once again a #5D, having failed to take the next step, and Grigorenko... well, is Grigorenko. Compher might be the best piece Colorado acquired in that particular transaction, but even he's a magic bean yet.

Along with Barrie, I was right about the Avs blowing the ROR deal; we'll have to see if Chevy lives up to my prognostications about Trouba, but if so I'll have nailed the bad GM hat-trick.

 

[Barnaby]

I thought the Rangers would be a top suitor, but it's hard to imagine them dealing two players off of their roster with the way they're playing. The players rumored to possibly be involved have been playing great if you believe Skjei and Miler rumors. Kreider or Miller with a first makes sense, but I'm not sure that gets it done. They could add a solid D prospect like Graves, but he's hardly a can't miss prospect.

 

[Avs44]

[collapse=5432]

I was, yes- and Sakic somehow managed to mangle even my lowest expectations.

If you want to consider signing Tyson Barrie right to UFA a win, I can't really stop you. Ultimately, his agent won that battle, and the Avs are worse off long-term for it. They neither get team control next time his contract up, nor did they save an appreciable amount of cap space. Make no mistake; Sakic was taken to school.

Any long term deal with Barrie would have taken him "right to UFA," as you put it. As is, it's four years of Barrie at a very friendly cap hit. Giving 7 or 8 years for a Barrie type of player is simply silly, only franchise players deserve that commitment, so while 1-2 years more would have been preferable, ideally 5 years, he hardly got taken to school, or anything remotely close to it. Your changing tune from then compared to now (back then a bridge deal, giving Barrie even more time to prove how much he was worth, was the dumbest thing Sakic could have done - and now it would have been preferable) says it all about the silliness of your argument.

Well, except for "signing Barrie to a bridge deal then losing him in the future" being exactly what appears to be the case. Otherwise, you're totally right...

As said, Sakic lost that little chess match. His team is also a mess for the third straight year as GM, and five out of six years since he's been in the front office.

And none of that is remotely relevant.

There are actually a lot of parallels between Sakic's (mis)management and Chevy's tenure in Winnipeg to date; both have promised little and delivered less, all while their respective fanbases cling to the draft and the future and so on and so forth as evidence they're going to be real good one day, just you wait.

Unfortunately all teams don't get a what - 13.5% chance to bail them out? The Lacroix's managed a terrible rebuild, Sakic has to rectify that. Your mistake is assuming that he could have just waved his hands and fixed the numerous issues with the franchise he inherited. He's made mistakes, no doubt, any rookie GM would, but he's done a decent job.

Oh, and to revive this ancillary discussion since you seem to like reveling in the past: how about that Ryan O'Reilly? His team-leading 8 points is more than Zadorov, Grigorenko and Compher combined. Zadorov is once again a #5D, having failed to take the next step, and Grigorenko... well, is Grigorenko. Compher might be the best piece Colorado acquired in that particular transaction, but even he's a magic bean yet.

Along with Barrie, I was right about the Avs blowing the ROR deal; we'll have to see if Chevy lives up to my prognostications about Trouba, but if so I'll have nailed the bad GM hat-trick.

Your subtle and nuanced analysis is at a childlike level quite frankly here. Your logic is "player X has more points, therefore the team that traded player X lost!" You're ignoring position, age, development, you name it. Every one of the five pieces the Avs eventually got in return for ROR were 21 or under at the time - two were not even drafted - yet here you are trying to do a cross-comparison of what everyone has done in the NHL just two years later...not even mentioning the fact that 3/5 pieces in return have yet to even play in the NHL. That is some of the dumbest logic I've seen on this board in a while, and that is something.

Aren't you also the guy who thought the Avs had gotten Jeremy Roy as part of the deal for ROR? Considering you only know 3/5 of the pieces involved in the transaction and have made up pieces in return before, I'm not sure why I take you seriously, but regardless, I'll start and end this with Zadorov.

Zadorov is not just a #5 this year, I see you went to NHL.com and checked ice time before posting. His minutes have been controlled in key situations - such as in third periods - but he's been on the top pairing every night with EJ, has the best CF% among all Avs defenders, and has easily been one of the brightest spots on the team. In terms of development he looks way better than last year. They are handling him carefully and holding him back offensively while working on his defensive game, but Zadorov has looked far calmer, far more poised, and under far more control than he was last season, when he often looked panicky. At least you just admitted you haven't bothered to watch him play before that brilliant hot take. I think you have proven, again, that trying to debate you is pretty pointless, since you make things up as you go to patch in your numerous knowledge gaps. For someone who advocates logic, some of the above "logic" makes me feel like smashing my head into a wall. Please don't crack out the champagne quite yet.


Now on to Trouba.

Between this and the argument from the other Jets fan that pace doesn't actually exist, I do wonder how it is you folks think draft choices develop into NHLers. Does your fanbase believe players pop out of nothingness, like a hockey-esque Big Bang? Is that what you're hoping saves Chevy from the Trouba situation?

There's nothing to "save" Chevy here. He's perfectly aware of what he's done, as is ownership, as are the fans. Trouba created this mess, not Chevy, and Chevy was put in a pretty mediocre position. A player, in a small market that might have trouble retaining talent, got on his high horse and requested a trade, wouldn't even talk a contract, and, to make it better, apparently decided to direct where he goes by saying he won't sign in Canada. Chevy doesn't need to be saved because he's blameless here.

A shame, then, that time is not at all on his side. He has just three weeks to determine who the wheels will fall off the rest of the way and who is legit. It's certainly possible Skjei or whoever's shine will have faded a bit by then, but not likely by so much that it drastically changes the mind of Gorton or another GM in a similar position.

Why does Chevy have to blink? Trouba is 3 weeks away from bombing his career and missing out on millions. The guy has made what, three million in his career so far? After taxes, that's still a great sum for a 22 year old, but that isn't going to last forever unless he's been brilliant with it. In 3 weeks, Trouba is going to miss out on millions and a year of hockey - which means even more millions lost. If the kid doesn't sign if he's not traded he's an idiot. For Chevy, what's the worst that happens? Worst case scenario is he doesn't get an offer he likes, Trouba remains dumb, and Trouba kills his own career by not playing for four years. However, the chances of that happening due to how stupid that would be or Trouba are about 0%. So what's the likely scenario? Chevy has already displayed he won't cave to a bad offer, so either he gets what he wants or Trouba signs a bridge deal and Chevy trades him at his leisure...and Chevy will have set an example for everyone else in Winnipeg.


As already established, Trouba won't and wouldn't be with the Jets long term, regardless of how Chevy handled it - so Chevy is utterly blameless there - which means the only thing Chevy has possibly lost here is about a month of whatever return he would have gotten for Trouba already in the lineup. Considering this a developmental year for the Jets, that's not a big loss. The big loss you seem to think exists is that Chevy will get a bad return - but obviously no offer so far has been great, so you can't have lost out on something that was never there - and as I'll say below, I don't think Chevy is going to be forced to accept offers that are even worse than offers that were already not good enough.

Trouba, at this point, is a luxury for 29 other teams. He's not going to turn any one of them into a contender all by himself, and as such no GM will be willing to surrender an equal player just for the pleasure of stitching his name on the back of their club's jersey. A team will only give up something that doesn't hurt them; if Chevy continues to insist on that being a young D, it must follow, then, that it won't be one who drastically changes Winnipeg's fortunes, either.

Trouba will not get an equal player in return, but he never would have, so Chevy has lost on nothing there. I don't believe any GM would have put an offer forward a month ago, or a couple months ago, and then now not be comfortable with it. Obviously no 1 for 1 piece was offered then, otherwise Chevy would have done it (what he has wanted the entire time, as said by valid sources, was a 1 for 1 young defensman - if that was actually offered, it would have been done. Since it's not done, it was never offered. Basic deduction), so, despite the fantasy world you created for yourself earlier in which Chevy could have gotten back Werenski or Provorov had he simply pulled the trigger earlier, that idea is bunk. Kindly provide a source for your claims, or stop polluting this thread with made-up fantasies of what could have been if it wasn't for stupid "Kev."


Understanding that had a 1 for 1 deal been offered, it would have already been done, we can safely assume that no such deal was ever tabled, barring you providing a source for your claims. As such, what Chevy was likely offered from the start was pieces that wouldn't hurt the other team - and those offers are logically still on the table now, as no team is going to pass on a 22 year old right handed top four defensman for pieces that don't hurt their club to lose...which means Chevy has probably lost very little here in terms of offers.

A shame, because had Kev not been on it, I believe this situation would have resolved itself amicably for all parties involved a long time ago. Unfortunately it looks as though any resolution at this stage of the game will be a resounding loss for the Jets.

No doubt that would have been fantastic for Trouba and the acquiring team. Get Trouba for pieces it doesn't hurt to lose, and the Jets look weak with an RFA.


Keep up the crocodile tears, though. I am sure that saying "alas" a few more teams will really drive your point home.[/collapse]

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

[collapse=432]

Any long term deal with Barrie would have taken him "right to UFA," as you put it.

Anything a day beyond the 2017-18 season, which was the Barrie camp's goal all along.

As is, it's four years of Barrie at a very friendly cap hit. Giving 7 or 8 years for a Barrie type of player is simply silly, only franchise players deserve that commitment

What's silly is assuming a GM wouldn't sign a useful young top four defender to 7 or 8 years if the option was at all on the table. Barrie's goal the entire way along was to make as much money as possible as fast as possible; he not only got that relative to his peers, but is earning a more-than-fair paycheck for the time being. Perfectly played- not so for the Avs.

, so while 1-2 years more would have been preferable, ideally 5 years, he hardly got taken to school, or anything remotely close to it.

So you admit Sakic didn't get the best deal possible...

Your changing tune from then compared to now (back then a bridge deal, giving Barrie even more time to prove how much he was worth, was the dumbest thing Sakic could have done - and now it would have been preferable) says it all about the silliness of your argument.

...and yet, again, I am the silly one. Strike two for Sakic.

And none of that is remotely relevant.

The performance of the team Sakic is supposed to be managing is irrelevant. Wow, that's quite a world to live in! GM for life, I suppose. If there are no benchmarks, after all, he should/can never be fired.

Unfortunately all teams don't get a what - 13.5% chance to bail them out? The Lacroix's managed a terrible rebuild, Sakic has to rectify that. Your mistake is assuming that he could have just waved his hands and fixed the numerous issues with the franchise he inherited. He's made mistakes, no doubt, any rookie GM would, but he's done a decent job.

Sakic walked into the smoldering remains of a terrible rebuild, and apparently decided he wanted to try and one-up it. Either that, or he's just not good at his job. I'll let you decide which is the case.

Your subtle and nuanced analysis is at a childlike level quite frankly here. Your logic is "player X has more points, therefore the team that traded player X lost!"

Yes, how dare I use points to evaluate a deal in which three out of the four remaining assets on both sides are forwards! How heinous!

You're ignoring position, age, development, you name it. Every one of the five pieces the Avs eventually got in return for ROR were 21 or under at the time - two were not even drafted - yet here you are trying to do a cross-comparison of what everyone has done in the NHL just two years later...not even mentioning the fact that 3/5 pieces in return have yet to even play in the NHL. That is some of the dumbest logic I've seen on this board in a while, and that is something.

So, to the bolded- it's almost as though Sakic and co. had control over what they could have returned... like, and I want to say, almost like he was in a role to influence the outcome of that deal somehow... or that the Avalanche, as a whole, had the ability to... I don't know... choose the assets they wanted from another team.

But sure, it's not Sakic's or the team's fault they traded ROR for magic beans that are more spoiled seeds than viable plants as of today.

Hint: The "but they haven't played in the NHL yet!!111!!" excuse depreciates every year that that doesn't happen. Not to mention the ones that are are no great shakes as players, and, well... I'll let those who aren't Avs fans decide if that was a great return or not.

Aren't you also the guy who thought the Avs had gotten Jeremy Roy as part of the deal for ROR?

I might have been; it was some time ago. However, if that was the case, that that particular detail actually makes the trade worse for Sakic is quite funny.

Zadorov is not just a #5 this year, I see you went to NHL.com and checked ice time before posting. His minutes have been controlled in key situations - such as in third periods - but he's been on the top pairing every night with EJ, has the best CF% among all Avs defenders, and has easily been one of the brightest spots on the team. In terms of development he looks way better than last year. They are handling him carefully and holding him back offensively while working on his defensive game, but Zadorov has looked far calmer, far more poised, and under far more control than he was last season, when he often looked panicky. At least you just admitted you haven't bothered to watch him play before that brilliant hot take

lol, the only hot take here is somehow trying to divine #5 minutes = top pairing. You can try and apply any "controlled" or "key situations" you want, but the facts are what they are; Zadorov is not only not a top pair defender, he's not even a top four.

I think you have proven, again, that trying to debate you is pretty pointless, since you make things up as you go to patch in your numerous knowledge gaps. For someone who advocates logic, some of the above "logic" makes me feel like smashing my head into a wall. Please don't crack out the champagne quite yet.

I'm liable to smash my own head into a wall trying to figure out how, exactly, playing the fifth-most minutes out of six players on a nightly basis makes Player X a team's #2 most-used/best, but I'll leave that task to someone who values their well-being less than I do. As was the case in the summer, there's a whole lot of fantasizing and hand-waving going on here, but as usual it's not coming from my side.

Now on to Trouba.

There's nothing to "save" Chevy here. He's perfectly aware of what he's done, as is ownership, as are the fans. Trouba created this mess, not Chevy, and Chevy was put in a pretty mediocre position.

And yet he somehow made it worse. It's like being that guy the movie 127 Hours was based on, but deciding not only to cut off his arm, but also both legs as well.

A player, in a small market that might have trouble retaining talent, got on his high horse and requested a trade, wouldn't even talk a contract, and, to make it better, apparently decided to direct where he goes by saying he won't sign in Canada. Chevy doesn't need to be saved because he's blameless here.

Right, he'd be blameless if he complied and tried to make the best of it. He still hasn't done that, and now has a veritable ticking time bomb in the form of the December 1st signing deadline. He's officially not blameless in making this situation worse for himself and the Jets than it already was.

Why does Chevy have to blink? Trouba is 3 weeks away from bombing his career and missing out on millions. The guy has made what, three million in his career so far? After taxes, that's still a great sum for a 22 year old, but that isn't going to last forever unless he's been brilliant with it. In 3 weeks, Trouba is going to miss out on millions and a year of hockey - which means even more millions lost. If the kid doesn't sign if he's not traded he's an idiot.

Well, let's compare here...

For Chevy, what's the worst that happens? Worst case scenario is he doesn't get an offer he likes, Trouba remains dumb, and Trouba kills his own career by not playing for four years.

One involves a single individual hurting his own career path. The other is a manager of a team- essentially the CEO of a company- hurting his entire organization to spite that one individual. You tell me which is actually the worst/stupidest idea here.

However, the chances of that happening due to how stupid that would be or Trouba are about 0%.

Players have sat out whole seasons before. It's not common, but it happens. I would not be so quick to put that at 0%.

So what's the likely scenario? Chevy has already displayed he won't cave to a bad offer, so either he gets what he wants or Trouba signs a bridge deal and Chevy trades him at his leisure...and Chevy will have set an example for everyone else in Winnipeg.

But we don't know what "bad" or "good" constitutes; we only know what (limited) parameters Chevy has placed on his trade demands, and anything else is unacceptable. As such, he has chosen that specific thing over the well-being of the Jets.

You also grossly over-estimate the impact on "everyone else in Winnipeg"; players will always look out for themselves and their families first. If they don't want to play somewhere- even Chicago, or Pittsburgh- they won't. It's pointless to sewer a season and/or an asset merely because you want to try and set a precedent that may only be in place for your term as GM- and maybe even not that long.

As already established, Trouba won't and wouldn't be with the Jets long term, regardless of how Chevy handled it - so Chevy is utterly blameless there - which means the only thing Chevy has possibly lost here is about a month of whatever return he would have gotten for Trouba already in the lineup.

...plus all those months beforehand when he knew that Trouba refused to negotiate. He had an opportunity prior to things going public; that leverage is gone. As said, Chevy is to blame for that.

Considering this a developmental year for the Jets, that's not a big loss

And, once again, that makes no sense given the age of the Jets core. That Chevy was even allowed to declare this a "developmental year" was bonkers in the first place. He's run virtually in place since the day he was hired, save for one playoff appearance that ended in a sweep; that's frankly unacceptable.

The big loss you seem to think exists is that Chevy will get a bad return - but obviously no offer so far has been great, so you can't have lost out on something that was never there - and as I'll say below, I don't think Chevy is going to be forced to accept offers that are even worse than offers that were already not good enough.

Again, "bad" return would be anything less than the parameters he's set out for this deal. He painted himself into that corner, not Trouba's agent. That's on Chevy.

Trouba will not get an equal player in return, but he never would have, so Chevy has lost on nothing there.

So then why demand it, sewering a month of the season in the process?

I don't believe any GM would have put an offer forward a month ago, or a couple months ago, and then now not be comfortable with it.

Well, you can believe that... but it doesn't really make sense. If you were Jeff Gorton, and weren't sure what you had in Brady Skjei beyond his 7 NHL games last year, you might have been more inclined to move him for Trouba in the summer. Now he's arguably your second-best blueliner. The impetus is gone, and so is one of Chevy's trade partners.

Obviously no 1 for 1 piece was offered then, otherwise Chevy would have done it (what he has wanted the entire time, as said by valid sources, was a 1 for 1 young defensman - if that was actually offered, it would have been done.

Correct, and that was a stupid limitation to put in place. Again, that's on Chevy.

Since it's not done, it was never offered. Basic deduction), so, despite the fantasy world you created for yourself earlier in which Chevy could have gotten back Werenski or Provorov had he simply pulled the trigger earlier, that idea is bunk. Kindly provide a source for your claims, or stop polluting this thread with made-up fantasies of what could have been if it wasn't for stupid "Kev."

Wait, so because Chevy has refused to take less than equal value for Trouba from what you agree are "valid sources", I have to still prove that he was offered less than equal value and refused? I mean... the answer is right there. Do you really need me to point it out for you? Would maybe underlining the relevant portion help- perhaps bolding it too?

Understanding that had a 1 for 1 deal been offered, it would have already been done, we can safely assume that no such deal was ever tabled, barring you providing a source for your claims.

I would agree none was forthcoming. It makes no sense for another team. Hence, Chevy either a) has intentionally chosen to refuse to trade Trouba, and thus has chosen to make his team worse b) didn't and doesn't understand that no one would give him equal value.

Neither conclusion is especially flattering to Chevy. I'll let you choose which one you like most.

As such, what Chevy was likely offered from the start was pieces that wouldn't hurt the other team - and those offers are logically still on the table now, as no team is going to pass on a 22 year old right handed top four defensman for pieces that don't hurt their club to lose...which means Chevy has probably lost very little here in terms of offers.

So you admit that Chevy could have made a deal months ago, but chose not to. Got it. How again does that make him a skilled GM? I mean, you've gone in circles to defend his thinking... but at no point have you actually shown how his thinking is in any way helpful to the Jets or, indeed, to finding a solution to this problem.

No doubt that would have been fantastic for Trouba and the acquiring team. Get Trouba for pieces it doesn't hurt to lose, and the Jets look weak with an RFA.

Which, apparently, is what you expect to happen, based on:

"no team is going to pass on a 22 year old right handed top four defensman for pieces that don't hurt their club to lose"

Ergo, Chevy will have to accept less than his asking price- something you note he could have done at any point- and has therefore dragged this soap opera out for longer than he needed to. Not a good look for him, and certainly not a "strong" one.

Keep up the crocodile tears, though. I am sure that saying "alas" a few more teams will really drive your point home.

Alas, the facts and simple logic have once again shown your defense of the ROR and Barrie situations to be faulty, and Chevy's handling of Trouba just as negligent. I'm sorry to have to keep doing this to you, but you're apparently a glutton for punishment.[/collapse]

 

[g00n]

Please stay on topic.

Also, if you're going to "line item" long responses that require scrolling please use a collapse tag or take it to PM. Thanks.

 

[Whileee]

Ah, yes, the siren song of Jets fans when faced with incontrovertible logic. You all should recite that instead of the Canadian anthem before games, as it seems to be the most popular response to any sort of criticism these days.

I said your post was ridiculous. So clearly I reject any notion that you offer anything close to "incontrovertible logic". Mostly, I see angry and incoherent rants from you, rather than cogent criticism.

 

[cobra427]

Therein lies the problem. Just three months ago, the Jets and Chevy were in a position where they could have come out of this difficult situation looking okay- not great, but okay.

They could have- should they have been so inclined- entertained a litany of trade proposals involving younger, less proven assets performing well in camps and pre-season, knowing their continued development would make the whole Trouba affair a bad memory and not an on-going nightmare. Everyone would have praised them for putting team before personal pride, and making the best of a bad hand.

But sure enough, Skjei- a player Jets fans poo-pooed all over, and who would have been excluded from any serious consideration by the organization due to their well-known parameters for a trade- is now playing at a level superior to any Trouba has ever reached, even considering the small sample size.

His story is not unique; Werenski, (PPG) Provorov, (0.5 PPG) Nurse and even Carlo (on pace for 30 points) have all acquitted themselves as NHL regulars who would be a definite boon to the current Jets roster.

Alas, thanks to the constraints Chevy placed on the return he'd accept, he's now likely missed the boat on all of them- not to mention several others hitting an upswing in their development. This same situation is now bound to repeat itself next year, and the year after that should this forsaken affair drag out that long.

At this point, all Winnipeg can hope to expect is a highly-regarded prospect not presently performing well or even at all in the NHL- otherwise why would another team bother- and perhaps a pick or two. In other words, it's the Kyle Turris trade all over again. Kev's on it, and as the clock ticks down to the December deadline, that should be ever the more troubling to Jets fans.

I've been think this all along that Chevy has misplayed his hand. Think about an offer Chevy might have received this summer. Now he is receiving lesser offers. How does he trade Trouba now for less than what he was offered this summer? Some where along here, Chevy has to realize this only gets worse and he cuts bait.

 

[xxreact9]

I've been think this all along that Chevy has misplayed his hand. Think about an offer Chevy might have received this summer. Now he is receiving lesser offers. How does he trade Trouba now for less than what he was offered this summer? Some where along here, Chevy has to realize this only gets worse and he cuts bait.

He admits he is wrong and proceeds accordingly. This is something most GMs in the league won't do, or are incapable of doing. Because they're mostly 60-80 year olds who's mind for the game is more stale than a bag of chips left out for 4 months.

 

[GoJetsGo55]

I don't think the issue is so much that he "wants to play somewhere else" but that he wants to have some sort of say in where that "somewhere else" actually is. The fact that he wants out sucks for everyone. The fact that he wants to have say in where he's moved to is absurd.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

 

[lomiller1]

No, I don't think it would be an "overpay". Miller (and a bunch of Rangers) are benefitting from crazy-high shooting percentages. He's not a point/game player. He's also getting killed in shot metrics (Corsi). I think Miller and Skjei or another good prospect might be okay for Trouba, but it would be a mistake for the Jets to overrate Miller based on the Rangers' hot start offensively (their 5v5 shooting percentage is about 12%, which is ridiculous).

At least Miller looked like a top 6 forward last year. Skjei would concern me more, he is really struggling with his puck possession numbers on heavily sheltered min. IMO what they probably are is a top 6 W and a bottom pair D, which isn’t the return I’d be looking for from Trouba.

 

[lomiller1]

I said your post was ridiculous. So clearly I reject any notion that you offer anything close to "incontrovertible logic". Mostly, I see angry and incoherent rants from you, rather than cogent criticism.

Yeah not incontrovertible because IMO Edmonton Express is missing something this: It’s pretty clear McDavid will get an offer sheet the Oilers will be unable to match. With their need for a #1D if Edm is smart they move him now for a D before his value drops. If the Jets offer Trouba + a 2nd they would be idiots not to jump at it. Then again, maybe they already did try to work out that deal and Trouba’s agent told them he wouldn’t sign there.

 

[Riptide]

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Doesn't change the fact that I think Chevy messed up. Trouba should have been moved months ago.

 

[zsam]

Doesn't change the fact that I think Chevy messed up. Trouba should have been moved months ago.

Chevy is slow to recognize when a player is due to be moved but I think it is early to make this conclusion on Trouba. We are 3 weeks away though ...

 

[kdog82]

Have to think Sweeney needs Trouba more than any other team. And I also believe Chevy isn't going to get what he thinks.

The longer he waits and the more the Jets lose the more desperate he will be to trade his asset as opposed to letting him sit.

 

[tony d]

The time to do something with Trouba is long past. Now the Jets look desperate and will get less than fair value for Trouba.

 

[Royale With Cheese]

The time to do something with Trouba is long past. Now the Jets look desperate and will get less than fair value for Trouba.

I see no desperation. Zero.

Stafford, Armia, Little, Perrault, Matthias, Myers, Stuart. All on the IR right now, and I still don't see or feel any desperation from the Jets.

Chevy obviously has the full support of ownership on this, and I don't think they blink. If they make a move, it will be because Chevy feels it's a good hockey deal. I don't think any other options are really on the table.

With the emergence of Josh Morrissey, now essentially filling Trouba's spot, the Jets "may" be less likely to want a young top 4 LHD back in trade, but it will still be a hockey trade when it happens IMO. If a trade happens for something other than a young LHD, it should not necessarily be construed that they somehow settled for less.

 

[Whileee]

The time to do something with Trouba is long past. Now the Jets look desperate and will get less than fair value for Trouba.

It all depends on the market. Reporters have repeatedly noted that there are a lot of teams very interested in acquiring Trouba. Chevy will get a deal that is based on a competition among bidders. The final price in a bidding situation is not determined by circumstances other than the interest of the various bidders in the product. It doesn't really matter how motivated the seller is; it depends on the motivation of the buyers. I doubt that has changed much in the past month, and there might actually be an increased interest on the part of some potential buyers.

 

[Whileee]

I see no desperation. Zero.

Stafford, Armia, Little, Perrault, Matthias, Myers, Stuart. All on the IR right now, and I still don't see or feel any desperation from the Jets.

Chevy obviously has the full support of ownership on this, and I don't think they blink. If they make a move, it will be because Chevy feels it's a good hockey deal. I don't think any other options are really on the table.

With the emergence of Josh Morrissey, now essentially filling Trouba's spot, the Jets "may" be less likely to want a young top 4 LHD back in trade, but it will still be a hockey trade when it happens IMO. If a different trade happens, it should not necessarily be construed that they somehow settled for less.

I completely agree. Waiting puts pressure on Trouba to accept a more team-friendly contract, which improves his trade value. It's also afforded Chevy an opportunity to see how Morrissey fits in as a top-4 LD (very well, it turns out).

The Jets have had a ridiculous spate of injuries and are icing the most inexperienced line-up in the NHL (10 rookies and sophomores last night). I think there's no chance that they'll be pressured into a panic move to "salvage" the season. Chevy is still focused on building around his very young and very talented core.

 

[SCP Guy]

While this may be my feeling and only in my circle of friends that range from hockey nuts to very casual fans who just go to games to drink....I have yet to hear one of them say we should trade Trouba for whatever we can get before the season gets away from us....Chevy is getting little to no pressure from the fans and very surprisingly the media in Winnipeg seem to be fully behind Chevy in waiting this out.....It may change on Nov 30th but up to this point it seems like everyone here is ready to wait this out long term. If this was to happen in most other markets it would be the opposite IMO.


If we are only going to get a 1st and a very good prospect for him (neither will help us now) I am 110% sure that same deal will be on the table before the draft....I think there is ZERO chance the offers we are getting now from the 4 teams that can fit JT in under the cap are better then the offers we will get from the 15 that can do it after the season ends. So I am fine with putting Jacob on ice for the season (He can play a year in Europe no biggy) and letting Josh Morrissey develop and play the top 4 minutes he has been logging up to this point. It will be the case of taking 1 step back to move 2 steps forward. Worst thing we could do is move him for 90 cents on the dollar in the next 2 weeks.

Some may have different opinions but that is how I want to see this played out.

 

[Benstheman]

Classic "get rejected and then instantly bash the other team's player to make people change their minds".

No, the question is : Who worths more??

 

[wintersej]

Have to think Sweeney needs Trouba more than any other team. And I also believe Chevy isn't going to get what he thinks.

The longer he waits and the more the Jets lose the more desperate he will be to trade his asset as opposed to letting him sit.

With Carlo exceeding expectations and the best prospect in the system being a RHD, I'm not sure that is true anymore.