Trottier vs. Crosby

[lazerbullet]

Better player, you have to go with Crosby. He's the consensus best player in the world, and has been for a decently long stretch of time now.

He is? I heard that one of his teammates was pretty decent. And your last statement is even more weird. Crosby has been injured for a decently long stretch of time now.

I understand if people think that he is the best player. But using words like "consensus" and "decently long" is rather strange.

 

[NyQuil]

Skillwise, it's no contest.

But when you start adding up the toughness, the physicality, the consistency, the durability, that's when you start to even things out.

I went with Trottier if only because he proved more over a longer period of time.

I expect Crosby to eclipse Trottier depending on how his career progresses.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Trottier pretty much gives you everything you could want, but Crosby has proven himself to be at worst a top 3 player for a longer period that Trottier was. I give Crosby a slight edge.

How much of that time has Crosby actually been playing? As far as I can tell he's only played in four "full" seasons, missed about half a season twice, and hardly played at all last year. Trottier, on the other hand, for a good chunk of his first nine seasons people were making arguments he was a better player than Gretz.

 

[Fred Taylor]

Skillwise, it's no contest.

But when you start adding up the toughness, the physicality, the consistency, the durability, that's when you start to even things out.

I went with Trottier if only because he proved more over a longer period of time.

I expect Crosby to eclipse Trottier depending on how his career progresses.

If you expect Crosby to eclipse Trottier, isn't that likely because you think he's the better player? Because that's what I want to know, I'm already aware that Crosby's career doesn't quite matchup yet (considering he's only 7 years into it and already missed substantial time).

 

[Fred Taylor]

How much of that time has Crosby actually been playing? As far as I can tell he's only played in four "full" seasons, missed about half a season twice, and hardly played at all last year. Trottier, on the other hand, for a good chunk of his first nine seasons people were making arguments he was a better player than Gretz.

That would be significantly overrating him, don't you agree?

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

That would be significantly overrating him, don't you agree?

In my eyes sure it's overrating him, but it wasn't in the eyes of a LOT or prognosticators in the early '80s.

PS. Comparing anyone favorably to Gretzky in my view is overrating them.

 

[JackSlater]

How much of that time has Crosby actually been playing? As far as I can tell he's only played in four "full" seasons, missed about half a season twice, and hardly played at all last year. Trottier, on the other hand, for a good chunk of his first nine seasons people were making arguments he was a better player than Gretz.

I'm not comparing their total value, which would clearly be Trottier. A freak concussion doesn't really change how good Crosby has been.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I'm not comparing their total value, which would clearly be Trottier. A freak concussion doesn't really change how good Crosby has been.

Here again, though, I think there's a temptation to overrate Crosby based solely on the "wow" factor. We're talking about a player who's cracked the 50 goal mark ONCE in his career. He's gotten better than 70 assists ONCE in his career. Take a look at someone like, say, Joe Sakic during the DPE: Crosby's seasons where he didn't miss many games his yearly totals aren't much different from Sakic's.

 

[NyQuil]

If you expect Crosby to eclipse Trottier, isn't that likely because you think he's the better player? Because that's what I want to know, I'm already aware that Crosby's career doesn't quite matchup yet (considering he's only 7 years into it and already missed substantial time).

Trottier's relative durability speaks in his favour IMO.

If you were asking, who is the more skilled player, I don't think there would be any contest.

When you get around to "better" or "more valuable", it starts to get a bit murky.

Trottier is also a tremendous physical and defensive hockey player, and a good face-off man, which the stats don't always demonstrate.

If I could build a franchise tomorrow with both guys as rookies, which guy would I choose?

Tough, but I'd go with Trottier, based on my expectations for his health and all-around game.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Trottier is also a tremendous physical and defensive hockey player, and a good face-off man, which the stats don't always demonstrate.

Better than just a "good" face-off man.
This is something that is overlooked often when comparing centermen.
Guys like Trots and Yzerman, even at their offensive best, were incredibly dominant in the face-off circle.

 

[NyQuil]

Better than just a "good" face-off man.
This is something that is overlooked often when comparing centermen.
Guys like Trots and Yzerman, even at their offensive best, were incredibly dominant in the face-off circle.

I was trying to be even-keeled.

 

[jack mullet]

Trottier is not all that comparable to Crosby. they both brought/bring different skill sets to the game. Trottier was much tougher and better defensively. If I had to choose one, I would pick Trottier. Trottier was the best center in the game for many years (I would argue 78-82). I have a tough time thinking Crosby has been the best center in the NHL outside his one scoring title.

 

[Rhiessan71]

I was trying to be even-keeled.

Well Crosby is definitely not weak in this regard.
Pretty sure he keeps himself in the mid 50's and is among the better FO guys in the league currently.
I just don't think he's on the same level as Trots or Yzerman. Kinda like Fedorov, he was also a good face-off guy but Yzerman was still a step above.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Better than just a "good" face-off man.
This is something that is overlooked often when comparing centermen.
Guys like Trots and Yzerman, even at their offensive best, were incredibly dominant in the face-off circle.

Well yeah, even when he was pretty much washed up as a player the Penguins kept him on the roster and had him take damn near every important face-off for them. Just an absolutely dominant face-off man.

 

[CpatainCanuck]

Why is Trottier winning this poll?

Trottier: 1.11ppg
Crosby: 1.40ppg

Keep in mind Trottier's career (1975-1994) basically paralleled the high scoring era in hockey.

 

[NyQuil]

Why is Trottier winning this poll?

Trottier: 1.11ppg
Crosby: 1.40ppg

Keep in mind Trottier's career (1975-1994) basically paralleled the high scoring era in hockey.

Well:

Trottier is not all that comparable to Crosby. they both brought/bring different skill sets to the game.

 

[JackSlater]

Here again, though, I think there's a temptation to overrate Crosby based solely on the "wow" factor. We're talking about a player who's cracked the 50 goal mark ONCE in his career. He's gotten better than 70 assists ONCE in his career. Take a look at someone like, say, Joe Sakic during the DPE: Crosby's seasons where he didn't miss many games his yearly totals aren't much different from Sakic's.

I couldn't care less about raw goal or assist totals. That Crosby only cracked those barriers once each is a reflection of his era more than his ability. If you want to look at goals, Crosby leading the NHL in that category is much more impressive than any of Trottier's goalscoring exploits. You could also argue that Crosby finishing top two in assists with his plugs is more impressive than Trottier's high finishes with Bossy on his wing. I don't know what your point is with Sakic, Crosby's point placements (or projected point placements) are generally better than his.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I couldn't care less about raw goal or assist totals. That Crosby only cracked those barriers once each is a reflection of his era more than his ability. If you want to look at goals, Crosby leading the NHL in that category is much more impressive than any of Trottier's goalscoring exploits. You could also argue that Crosby finishing top two in assists with his plugs is more impressive than Trottier's high finishes with Bossy on his wing. I don't know what your point is with Sakic, Crosby's point placements (or projected point placements) are generally better than his.

My point with Sakic is that Crosby's numbers aren't much different than any other top scorer in the dead puck era. Certainly there's nothing there to anoint the man as a Hockey God. So were is it coming from? It's coming from the "wow" factor: His flashiness as a player. My point is that flashiness and "wow" factors aren't a part of evaluating how good a player is. You can be a great player without flashiness and "wow" factors.

 

[NyQuil]

Heh, I can be easily convinced the other way as well.

 

[Analyzer*]

Trottier just based on chirps.

The high pitched voice is Trottier. NSFW!

 

[tarheelhockey]

He is? I heard that one of his teammates was pretty decent. And your last statement is even more weird. Crosby has been injured for a decently long stretch of time now.

I understand if people think that he is the best player. But using words like "consensus" and "decently long" is rather strange.

I realize Malkin is in the conversation. But if you want consensus, go make a poll. Should be pretty clear-cut.

"Decently long time"... how long would you say it's been since Crosby ascended to Best Player status? 4-5 years now? Not Gretzky-esque, but how many players have been at the top of the hill for 4-5 years, injuries notwithstanding? Not a whole lot of them, and not Trottier.

I don't think any of the above is "weird", or even divergent from general mainstream opinion.

 

[saskganesh]

.Many Cananadiens never forgave Trootier for playing for the Americans in 84 CanadaCup.Brian was native and chose to play for the Americans.Previously Brian played for canada.

Meh. We welcomed Peter Stasny to Team Canada; I don't think folks were upset when dual-citizen Brett Hull played for Team USA. Citizenship is what it is.

Or are Metis/Ojibwa somehow different?

To the point: Both great players. But Crosby isn't done yet. So I'll have to abstain.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Here again, though, I think there's a temptation to overrate Crosby based solely on the "wow" factor. We're talking about a player who's cracked the 50 goal mark ONCE in his career. He's gotten better than 70 assists ONCE in his career. Take a look at someone like, say, Joe Sakic during the DPE: Crosby's seasons where he didn't miss many games his yearly totals aren't much different from Sakic's.

During the post-lockout era (2006-12):
Crosby - 1.40 PPG
Malkin - 1.23
Ovechkin - 1.23
Thornton - 1.16
Spezza - 1.13


During DPE (1998-03):
Lemieux - 1.48
Jagr - 1.36
Forsberg - 1.25
Sakic - 1.22
Bure - 1.10

I'd say that the difference is very substantial.

 

[Fred Taylor]

Why is Trottier winning this poll?

Trottier: 1.11ppg
Crosby: 1.40ppg

Keep in mind Trottier's career (1975-1994) basically paralleled the high scoring era in hockey.

While I agree Crosby is better, a more fair assessment would be to take Trottiers best seven year stretch and see how their points per game stacks up. Then adjust for era, maybe another small boost to Crosby since he doesn't play with elite wingers like Bossy.

 

[Czech Your Math]

I realize Malkin is in the conversation. But if you want consensus, go make a poll. Should be pretty clear-cut.

"Decently long time"... how long would you say it's been since Crosby ascended to Best Player status? 4-5 years now? Not Gretzky-esque, but how many players have been at the top of the hill for 4-5 years, injuries notwithstanding? Not a whole lot of them, and not Trottier.

I don't think any of the above is "weird", or even divergent from general mainstream opinion.

I don't know what the "consensus" is. However, I do find it hard to believe that a forward who hasn't won a Ross, Hart or Pearson since '07 should be the "consensus" best player since then. Especially since competition has won these awards since that season. It seems to be built mostly on perpetual expectations that he will separate himself from the pack. He missed over 1/3 of the '08 season... had a very good '09, but still finished behind Malkin & Ovechkin in points... improved his goal scoring to have an outstanding '10 season, but Ovechkin still tied him in points in fewer games... then he seemed to finally separate himself in the first half of '11, when Malkin was hurt and Ovechkin had declined, but then he got the concussion and hasn't been mostly MIA since. So the case for him being the best player, over the past several seasons, seems to mostly be based on 1-1.5 seasons in '10 & '11... but he hasn't even been clearly the most valuable player for an entire season during that stretch. I can't think of another example in recent decades of a player being credited as the "consensus" best forward for that long, when he was never the "consensus" best forward for even one season during that time.