GDT: Training Camp discussion - Rifai and Murray on waivers -- Steeves clears

[Suntouchable13]

If Dewar is healthy hopefully they send Kampf packing

 

[Fogelhund]

Yeah maybe possibly.

1 goal every ten games last year and one year older.....

Two seeing eye goals v Mont in an exy, skated behind the play all night, gets an absolutely. I don't know man it just doesn't seem to be enough to cost Robertson and/or Cowan

If it were me it's still a no

I've heard this but.....

Robertson will be in the lineup, Cowan will be in the OHL. Cowan isn't ready, independent of Patches.

I'm not big on him, but the guy is skating with the main group, and currently practicing with the PP group. He probably replaces a guy like Reaves, or maybe even Jarnkrok at a lower price.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1841542473165787340

 

[Dekes For Days]

I don't know man it just doesn't seem to be enough to cost Robertson and/or Cowan

Cowan still needs development time and is likely headed back down. Having Pacioretty doesn't mean not having Robertson. Both can co-exist.

 

[LeafSteel]

It's almost as if the doctors are trying wash their hands of this one.


They have to clear space first...

So Liljegren on waivers, probably.

To be honest, I’m floored by the bolded.

How did you come to the decision to waive one of our RHD who can potentially slot into our 4RHD slot?

25 years old and looking at our RHD, we have 34 year old Tanev, Timmins, and Hakanpaa, with Niemala as our next up.

This list inspires so much confidence you are letting our 25 year old RHD go for nothing?

Horrendous asset management.

We don’t even know if hakanpaa can play.

How do you decide on Liljegren to be waived?

 

[Fogelhund]

To be honest, I’m floored by the bolded.

How did you come to the decision to waive one of our RHD who can potentially slot into our 4RHD slot?

25 years old and looking at our RHD, we have 34 year old Tanev, Timmins, and Hakanpaa, with Niemala as our next up.

This list inspires so much confidence you are letting our 25 year old RHD go for nothing?

Horrendous asset management.

We don’t even know if hakanpaa can play.

How do you decide on Liljegren to be waived?

Some people are fixated on Lilly... it's ridiculous. See the Rifai vs. Lilly thread too... I mean sure... a 7/8 LD is replacing a RD in our lineup.

 

[LeafSteel]

Some people are fixated on Lilly... it's ridiculous. See the Rifai vs. Lilly thread too... I mean sure... a 7/8 LD is replacing a RD in our lineup.

I don’t know what to say.

On other teams, Liljegren would be a valued asset that has a role to play.

For us, with our pathetic RHD depth, he’s the automatic to be discarded for nothing, with no asset or replacement coming in the opposite direction.

Just give him away, and use the savings to sign PTO forwards….

 

[Fogelhund]

I don’t know what to say.

On other teams, Liljegren would be a valued asset that has a role to play.

For us, with our pathetic RHD depth, he’s the automatic to be discarded for nothing, with no asset or replacement coming in the opposite direction.

Just give him away, and use the savings to sign PTO forwards….

Objectively, moving Sandin was the right move for our club... but he has been a 20 minute plus D man for Washington since being moved. IMO, Lilly is a better D, and would end up becoming a 20 minute + D man elsewhere if moved, and we'd all be talking about letting him go in a negative way in a few years.

 

[Antropovsky]

He's actually literally avoided those points everytime he's been quizzed up on the results of last year's playoffs vs the years under Dubas.

James would have given his left nut to have those kinds of excuses for the playoff failures under Dubas.

But if someone else presents information about Marner with actual break downs of data reviewed, @Dekes For Days says it's cherry picked, and too simplified or something of that nature.

Meanwhile, his info is just factual statements by himself with no evidence to back up his opinion necessary.

@Dekes For Days Remember this convo the next time you nitpick others breakdowns of Marners game and call the data arbitrary and cherry picked.

 

[Fogelhund]

""

 

[All Mod Cons]

Do you actually see Pacioretty being signed?

100%

 

[LeafSteel]

Objectively, moving Sandin was the right move for our club... but he has been a 20 minute plus D man for Washington since being moved. IMO, Lilly is a better D, and would end up becoming a 20 minute + D man elsewhere if moved, and we'd all be talking about letting him go in a negative way in a few years.

Add to it we got a 1st for Sandin that turned into Cowan vs waiving Liljegren…..

Can’t possibly see how that would even look like, other than just brutal.

 

[conFABulator]

That wasn't me. That was Rare Jewel. I just responded to your question "What team was better than this one in the Matthews era?". I agree that "nowhere close" is a stretch.

I answered with 3 years because we were better in each of those 3 years. Nowhere did I "assemble an all-star team of players across those three years as a comparison to what we have this single year". You were discussing our second tier of forwards, so I gave examples of past players we've had in that tier; noting that this year's group doesn't surpass the group we had in any of those individual years unless there's meaningful advancement in our youth.

What Knies has shown so far is not all that close to Hyman.
Domi is not better than Kerfoot.
Kampf is not equal to Spezza.
Reaves is not equal to Simmonds.
Lorentz doesn't even have a contract, and isn't an upgrade on anybody. Cowan is likely headed back to the OHL.
Robertson is really the only current roster player with an argument of being better than a 2020-2021 counterpart, but it doesn't make up for the rest.
Hopefully we see big progression in our youth to push us ahead, but there's really no argument for it being better (than even our 3rd best forward group of those 3 years) at this point in time.

Holl and Dermott are not behind OEL and Benoit. Muzzin is a decent step above everybody not named Rielly. And while I like Tanev, there are questions around if 35-year old Tanev can live up to prime Brodie; not to mention the uncertainty around Hakanpaa coming off what some considered a career-threatening injury.

I think it would be pretty hard to argue Woll/Stolarz as a better quality tandem going into this season than Andersen/Campbell would have been going into 2020-2021. Andersen was still considered a starting goalie at that point, and had a lot more experience. Campbell wasn't well established, but had some decent past results, played well after joining us the previous year, and had 11th overall pedigree. Ideally, our goaltending results this year are better, but that's really just hoping.

Apologies, I thought I was discussing with the guy who had made the quote nowhere close comment.

You already said you agree so I won't belabour the point and the specific years that we're discussing it does feel like you are possibly comparing players during their prime as opposed to what the players did that year or projected to have done that year.

Take Hyman verse Knies for example. In 2020 / 21 Hyman was 28 years old and his career highs before that were around about 21 goals and 40 points. Matthew Knies is 21 years old and in his first 83 games has 15 goals and 36 points. I don't think it's a stretch to say Knies could give us close to what Hyman gave us that year which projected to be around 30 goals and 60 points playing a full year with Matthews and Marner.

If you look at what Spezza, Thornton, Simmonds, Kerfoot and Engvall gave us that year you might see that my comparables make sense too. I also think anyone at the bottom of our roster could give us more than Vesey and Boyd gave us that year.

We also don't agree on Dermott/Holl vs OEL and Benoit and I am not a Holl hater.

Anyway I'm not even convinced myself that this year is going to be a better team than 2020/21 but I had to challenge the statement, which it turns out was not made by you that this team is "nowhere close" to that team which I consider to be the best of the Matthews era.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[ACC1224]

https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/berube-is-a-believer-in-the-matthews-marner-chemistry~3004163

https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/marner-on-matthews-he-doesn-t-look-like-there-s-any-pressure~3004162

Few interviews from camp

 

[francis246]

Also Dermott is with the Oilers now

Makes sense the Oilers coach, coached him in junior. A bunch of Erie Otters have ended up in Edmonton now

To be honest, I’m floored by the bolded.

How did you come to the decision to waive one of our RHD who can potentially slot into our 4RHD slot?

25 years old and looking at our RHD, we have 34 year old Tanev, Timmins, and Hakanpaa, with Niemala as our next up.

This list inspires so much confidence you are letting our 25 year old RHD go for nothing?

Horrendous asset management.

We don’t even know if hakanpaa can play.

How do you decide on Liljegren to be waived?

Liljegren won’t be waived but I’m not so certain he isn’t going to be traded. I mentioned in before pre season starts but moving him makes the most sense. You can get the best value for him and also clear 3 mill in cap space. I just don’t think he is what we hoped for and that’s alright.

 

[Rare Jewel]

To be honest, I’m floored by the bolded.

How did you come to the decision to waive one of our RHD who can potentially slot into our 4RHD slot?

25 years old and looking at our RHD, we have 34 year old Tanev, Timmins, and Hakanpaa, with Niemala as our next up.

This list inspires so much confidence you are letting our 25 year old RHD go for nothing?

Horrendous asset management.

We don’t even know if hakanpaa can play.

How do you decide on Liljegren to be waived?

That is what I think may happen; there was chatter in the summer that may not have received a QO.

To be clear, I'm still a fan of his, and I would only move him if something interesting is coming back. But just reading the way camp is going, at least in Berube's eyes, he may be surplus to requirements.

 

[hamzarocks]

Actually completely forgot about that.

And apparently he's having trouble cracking their D core in training camp.

Well thats cu dermott sucks and has sucked since 2020ish when he had a few major injuries

He dodnt ever develop his skating, rushing, strength, and breakout passing at the level needed to be a consistent top4D in the league

Oilers have Bouchard (top 5ishD), Ekholm (top 15ishD), Nurse (#3-4D), Kulak (#5-6D) ahead of Dermott along with a more projectable and expectrd higher upside player in Eberblom (23, better size and more chance to grow and develop)

That leaves spot #6 vs that small guy who used to play for the Canucks that we wanted a couple years back, forgetting his name, but this player was a strong defensive player despite being built like a small PMD.

Dermott is a #7-8D league wide at this point.

 

[Dekes For Days]

But if someone else presents information about Marner with actual break downs of data reviewed, @Dekes For Days says it's cherry picked, and too simplified or something of that nature. Meanwhile, his info is just factual statements by himself with no evidence to back up his opinion necessary.

I supported my position (which was really just a passing comment you decided to jump on) quite extensively. I looked at record, playoff outcome, playoff performance, defensive results, individual performances, player history, the specific issues that popped up, etc. And contrary to the claim in the post you're responding to, I addressed your note about the injuries and their potential impacts, like always. People are free to present information about Marner. You just tend to run into issues when, instead of looking at the whole picture like I did here, you look at a fraction of the picture and make a broad conclusion that isn't supported by a deeper look at the information you choose, or the rest of the evidence.

 

[Dekes For Days]

it does feel like you are possibly comparing players during their prime as opposed to what the players did that year or projected to have done that year.
Take Hyman verse Knies for example. In 2020 / 21 Hyman was 28 years old and his career highs before that were around about 21 goals and 40 points. Matthew Knies is 21 years old and in his first 83 games has 15 goals and 36 points. I don't think it's a stretch to say Knies could give us close to what Hyman gave us that year which projected to be around 30 goals and 60 points playing a full year with Matthews and Marner.

I am looking at the players in those years, not the best version of them. Our past depth just tends to get undervalued. Hyman was already playing at a 60 point pace in 2019-2020. Compared to what Knies has shown so far, Hyman was better offensively, better defensively, and already one of our top PKers. Can Knies get there in time? Absolutely. But I think it's a stretch to say that that is the expected impact we'll get from Knies this year. That would take some of that "meaningful advancement in our youth" that I was talking about.

 

[RoadWarrior]

Not surprised Timmins has found his way to into the top 6, he's had a really good preseason.

Timmins is very positionally sound and moves the puck exceptionally well. He’s not going to lead the league in hits but he does everything else. He could fill in with top 4 role if the team has injuries.

 

[conFABulator]

I am looking at the players in those years, not the best version of them. Our past depth just tends to get undervalued. Hyman was already playing at a 60 point pace in 2019-2020. Compared to what Knies has shown so far, Hyman was better offensively, better defensively, and already one of our top PKers. Can Knies get there in time? Absolutely. But I think it's a stretch to say that that is the expected impact we'll get from Knies this year. That would take some of that "meaningful advancement in our youth" that I was talking about.

Sure and maybe I am accelerating Knies' development curve a bit, but I don't think 25 and 50 is a big leap if he stays on the top line. I had Hyman better than him, just not by so much. I am a big Knies fan.

I am not diminishing how good guys in those teams were, I just think this team is "somewhere near" those teams

 

[Racer88]

It’s funny that we are debating which teams in the Matthews era have been the best when by the results they have all been crap. First round losses abound. This fact is beyond debate…..it’s real. We can throw all the excuses we want but they have been playoff failures

 

[TheBeastCoast]

It’s funny that we are debating which teams in the Matthews era have been the best when by the results they have all been crap. First round losses abound. This fact is beyond debate…..it’s real. We can throw all the excuses we want but they have been playoff failures

Do you think this is news to everyone or something? We all watched them lose the series too lmao

 

[Racer88]

Do you think this is news to everyone or something? We all watched them lose the series too lmao

I’m pretty sure I didn’t announce that it was news. Just commenting on multiple pages of which losing team was better then the other losing team

 

[ACC1224]

Do you think this is news to everyone or something? We all watched them lose the series too lmao

That record has been skipping for months(years?) and yet it's still trotted out like some great revelation.