GDT: Training Camp discussion - Rifai and Murray on waivers -- Steeves clears

[conFABulator]

Nowhere close.

It's the same team as last year, just with OEL.

Nowhere close?

It's actually Brodie, Giordano and Klingberg out with Tanev, OEL and Hakanpaa in. If you don't think we have improved dramatically with the latter three playing the 40+ minutes the former three were giving us last year then you are just here to complain.

Throw in Stolarz over Samsonov, literally anyone over Samsonov is an upgrade.

We only lost Bertuzzi and you could argue that Pacioretty will give us the same production, not to mention Knies, Robertson and McMann covering the lost scoring too.

What team was better than this one in the Matthews era?

 

[SprDaVE]

I'm surprised they haven't made cuts yet. I suspect tomorrow might be the day before the last 2 games.

 

[Gallagbi]

the “run it back” criticism has really just become “they didn’t make the changes I wanted so I’ll pretend nothing has changed”

I look at this roster and say we’ve improved areas of need; added versatility and balance to the backend, got one of the most effective goaltenders in the league last year (Stolarz) to replace one of the least (Sammy) - just need to see how he responds to more games. Our forward group is probably better as well. We also changed our nearly the entire coaching staff which is one of the most potentially impactful changes you can possibly make.

There’s been lots of change.

I don’t think there much argument that this is the best roster we’ve had in the Matthews era

We took a step back last year with our roster IMO and this is a step forward from it, but still behind the COVID Canadian Division and TB 1&2 rosters IMO (ignoring TDL)

I don't trade Domi for either Bunting or Hyman, Muzzin was an upgrade on Tanev. The depth on D is good now.

If we improve a lot will depend on our youth and guys like Robertson, Knies, Lilj and McMann becoming impact players

 

[LaPlante94]

I'm surprised they haven't made cuts yet. I suspect tomorrow might be the day before the last 2 games.

Probably don't want to ruin their team bonding trip by cutting players now. I'm sure when they get back tomorrow they'll start to make some cuts

 

[Dekes For Days]

Through all the changes we’ve made to personnel along the way we’ve never really made the D a priority like we did this offseason, outside of acquiring Muzzin which could have been great if he could have stayed healthy, but he didn’t.

That's really not true. Defense was a priority from February 2019 to 2023. It was ignored last year until a misguided scramble at the deadline that made us worse, and then became a focus again this offseason. Even with the focus, it's still unlikely we see better defensive results than 2020-2023.

We also legitimately have young players ready to take on significant roles in the team.

This is really the main difference. A lot depends on them.

The “run it back” complaints are just a months long hissy fit by a portion of people here because the team didn’t agree the path to winning is trading away one of their best players (Marner)

This is true, except it's been years, not months.

What team was better than this one in the Matthews era?

2020-2023.

 

[Antropovsky]

That's really not true. Defense was a priority from February 2019 to 2023. It was ignored last year until a misguided scramble at the deadline that made us worse, and then became a focus again this offseason. Even with the focus, it's still unlikely we see better defensive results than 2020-2023.

This is really the main difference. A lot depends on them.

This is true, except it's been years, not months.

2020-2023.

How do you know our deadline acquisitions made us worse?

Didn't you just say a few weeks ago that you don't present your opinions as facts?

 

[Dekes For Days]

How do you know our deadline acquisitions made us worse?
Didn't you just say a few weeks ago that you don't present your opinions as facts?

I don't see any opinion presented as fact. Not sure what you're talking about. I believe the additions made us worse because we had a worse record after, worse defensive results after, the additions didn't play very well as individuals, and we lost and had one of our worst underlying playoff performances in part due to glaring transition struggles that seemed to pop up when we overloaded with defensemen with poor transition ability.

 

[conFABulator]

2020-2023.

Thanks for answering. First of all, the Leafs have been very good for four of five years now, so I agree the 2020-2023 teams are not easy to be improved upon.

Over that three year window, it was very much the core four leading the way for the forwards. They were supported by a supporting cast that included a 15-goal Hyman (in 55 games) and then Bunting, Mikheyev, Engvall, Kampf, Spezza, and Kerfoot. The defense was Reilly with Brodie, Giordano, a hobbled Muzzin for a while, Holl, Sandin and Liljegren. Our goaltending was a revolving door of Campbell, Andersen (splitting the Covid season with Campbell), Mrazek, Murray, and Samsonov.

With that window as the benchmark, I would say that three of the core four have hit their primes and improved every year, our next tier now includes Knies, Domi, McMann, Robertson, Kampf, Jarnkrok and Holmberg. Even with Tavares losing a step I would say our F this year get the edge over the the benchmark.

As for D. I won't pretend to forget that Brodie was pretty good and Giordano was useful. I would say they are more than replaced by Tanev and McCabe, Benoit gives us more than Muzzin was able to, and OEL and the more mature Liljegren over Sandin and Liljegren. Edge to this year, no?

It's almost amazing we have been as good as we have when you list our goalies over that period. Woll and Stolarz should the best tandem since Campbell/Andersen the Covid year. That has to be a draw or edge to this year.

We also have a new coach and those often come with improvement for good teams.

 

[Gallagbi]

Thanks for answering. First of all, the Leafs have been very good for four of five years now, so I agree the 2020-2023 teams are not easy to be improved upon.

Over that three year window, it was very much the core four leading the way for the forwards. They were supported by a supporting cast that included a 15-goal Hyman (in 55 games) and then Bunting, Mikheyev, Engvall, Kampf, Spezza, and Kerfoot. The defense was Reilly with Brodie, Giordano, a hobbled Muzzin for a while, Holl, Sandin and Liljegren. Our goaltending was a revolving door of Campbell, Andersen (splitting the Covid season with Campbell), Mrazek, Murray, and Samsonov.

With that window as the benchmark, I would say that three of the core four have hit their primes and improved every year, our next tier now includes Knies, Domi, McMann, Robertson, Kampf, Jarnkrok and Holmberg. Even with Tavares losing a step I would say our F this year get the edge over the the benchmark.

As for D. I won't pretend to forget that Brodie was pretty good and Giordano was useful. I would say they are more than replaced by Tanev and McCabe, Benoit gives us more than Muzzin was able to, and OEL and the more mature Liljegren over Sandin and Liljegren. Edge to this year, no?

It's almost amazing we have been as good as we have when you list our goalies over that period. Woll and Stolarz should the best tandem since Campbell/Andersen the Covid year. That has to be a draw or edge to this year.

We also have a new coach and those often come with improvement for good teams.

Muzzin was fantastic for most of those years. The season be played 4 games is really the only "lost step" otherwise he was clearly our 2nd best D over the last 5-10 years

 

[notbias]

Thanks for answering. First of all, the Leafs have been very good for four of five years now, so I agree the 2020-2023 teams are not easy to be improved upon.

Over that three year window, it was very much the core four leading the way for the forwards. They were supported by a supporting cast that included a 15-goal Hyman (in 55 games) and then Bunting, Mikheyev, Engvall, Kampf, Spezza, and Kerfoot. The defense was Reilly with Brodie, Giordano, a hobbled Muzzin for a while, Holl, Sandin and Liljegren. Our goaltending was a revolving door of Campbell, Andersen (splitting the Covid season with Campbell), Mrazek, Murray, and Samsonov.

With that window as the benchmark, I would say that three of the core four have hit their primes and improved every year, our next tier now includes Knies, Domi, McMann, Robertson, Kampf, Jarnkrok and Holmberg. Even with Tavares losing a step I would say our F this year get the edge over the the benchmark.

As for D. I won't pretend to forget that Brodie was pretty good and Giordano was useful. I would say they are more than replaced by Tanev and McCabe, Benoit gives us more than Muzzin was able to, and OEL and the more mature Liljegren over Sandin and Liljegren. Edge to this year, no?

It's almost amazing we have been as good as we have when you list our goalies over that period. Woll and Stolarz should the best tandem since Campbell/Andersen the Covid year. That has to be a draw or edge to this year.

We also have a new coach and those often come with improvement for good teams.

Muzzin > every other D we've had in this era except Rielly, and I think that is debatable.

 

[conFABulator]

Muzzin was fantastic for most of those years. The season be played 4 games is really the only "lost step" otherwise he was clearly our 2nd best D over the last 5-10 years

He might have been good, but he played the full Covid year, then missed half a year, then played four games. I like Muzzin, but he did not contribute (or even play) for half of that window. He only played 187 games as a Leaf. He was a absolutely was very good in the Covid year but that's only one of the three year window I am comparing to.

 

[Gallagbi]

He might have been good, but he played the full Covid year, then missed half a year, then played four games. I like Muzzin, but he did not contribute (or even play) for half of that window. He only played 187 games as a Leaf. He was a absolutely was very good in the Covid year but that's only one of the three year window I am comparing to.

He was good in the COVID year, lockdown year and even the final injury year when he formed a good shutdown pair with Brodie v. TB

 

[conFABulator]

Muzzin > every other D we've had in this era except Rielly, and I think that is debatable.

I don't disagree. I was responding to someone who said the 2020-2023 teams were better than this year's team. Based on this, I am only talking about what Muzzin gave us in each of this years. He had one full season and half where he was very good. You could absolutely argue that the Covid shortened year was our best D of the Matthews era. Reilly, Muzzin, Brodie, Holl, Dermott, Bogosian, and Sandin were pretty good. I think I like Reilly, Tanev, McCabe, OEL, Benoit, Liljegren, and Hakanpaa a bit better and certainly is stronger four through seven.

 

[notbias]

I don't disagree. I was responding to someone who said the 2020-2023 teams were better than this year's team. Based on this, I am only talking about what Muzzin gave us in each of this years. He had one full season and half where he was very good. You could absolutely argue that the Covid shortened year was our best D of the Matthews era. Reilly, Muzzin, Brodie, Holl, Dermott, Bogosian, and Sandin were pretty good. I think I like Reilly, Tanev, McCabe, OEL, Benoit, Liljegren, and Hakanpaa a bit better and certainly is stronger four through seven.

Are we comparing on paper or what people did? Because on paper, those teams were better, what they did, those teams also might be better.

And if we are talking about what people did, Holl was a good 2nd pairing D some seasons.

I think all the teams are comparable, last year was the weakest in my opinion, and then the rest you can argue one way or another.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Muzzin > every other D we've had in this era except Rielly, and I think that is debatable.

Hainsey, Ron

 

[Gallagbi]

Hainsey, Ron

No, just no

 

[conFABulator]

Are we comparing on paper or what people did? Because on paper, those teams were better, what they did, those teams also might be better.

And if we are talking about what people did, Holl was a good 2nd pairing D some seasons.

I think all the teams are comparable, last year was the weakest in my opinion, and then the rest you can argue one way or another.

I don't disagree and I started by saying they are tough teams to be better than. It's a bit tricky to compare this year to a three year window.

I would be happy to stack this year against any one of, the best of those years and see how they line up. Would that be the Covid season? That's a tricky one for other reasons too as we played the same seven teams all year...is that the one?

 

[notbias]

Hainsey, Ron

Are we going to start listing all the D we had that were worse than Muzzin?

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Are we going to start listing all the D we had that were worse than Muzzin?

Are you old enough to remember Hal Gill?

 

[Dekes For Days]

With that window as the benchmark, I would say that three of the core four have hit their primes and improved every year, our next tier now includes Knies, Domi, McMann, Robertson, Kampf, Jarnkrok and Holmberg. Even with Tavares losing a step I would say our F this year get the edge over the the benchmark.

The combined impact from the core is probably going to be pretty similar. In terms of second tier forward differences, unless we see significant improvements from our youth, the likes of Domi/Knies/Robertson/McMann/Holmberg probably aren't going to surpass the Hyman/Bunting/Kerfoot/Mikheyev/Engvall/Spezza/Kase/etc. players that we had previously, especially when considering defensive and PK impacts as well. Not to mention how much we've tanked our 4th line since.

As for D. I won't pretend to forget that Brodie was pretty good and Giordano was useful. I would say they are more than replaced by Tanev and McCabe, Benoit gives us more than Muzzin was able to, and OEL and the more mature Liljegren over Sandin and Liljegren. Edge to this year, no?

I'm going to assume that "Benoit gives us more than Muzzin" was a mistake, because that's just an insane thing to say. Benoit is a #6-7 with a roller coaster of a career so far. Muzzin was a consistent top pairing defenseman, and easily the 2nd best defenseman we've had in this era, at least. Rielly/Muzzin/Brodie easily beats out any other top 3 combination we've had, and OEL/Liljegren/Hakanpaa/Benoit don't really surpass the Giordano/Liljegren/Holl/Sandin/Bogosian/Dermott group we've had previously.

It's almost amazing we have been as good as we have when you list our goalies over that period. Woll and Stolarz should the best tandem since Campbell/Andersen the Covid year. That has to be a draw or edge to this year.

This is actually the most uncertain goaltending we've ever really had. Woll and Stolarz aren't exactly a step above. I get why people are optimistic, but these are two wildly unproven goalies. Neither of these goalies have played more than 28 games in a season, and neither of these goalies have been #1 goalies or even really proper tandem goalies in their NHL careers. Stolarz had a good year last year in a short sample, but the last time we acquired somebody coming off great results in a small sample (Mrazek), they bombed. Samsonov last year was also coming off great results the year before, and he struggled. There are no guarantees in goaltending, and while our goaltending this year may turn out better, there isn't really a way to justify being better situated at this time.

We also have a new coach and those often come with improvement for good teams.

The new coach bump is largely a myth. The group may respond better to a new and fresh voice, and that's the hope, but there isn't really any justification at this point to call it an upgrade.

We still have a good opportunity to win, because people really underrate how good we actually were 2020-2023, but at this point, we'll likely need something unexpected to fall our way in order to surpass the quality of team we had back then.

 

[conFABulator]

The combined impact from the core is probably going to be pretty similar. In terms of second tier forward differences, unless we see significant improvements from our youth, the likes of Domi/Knies/Robertson/McMann/Holmberg probably aren't going to surpass the Hyman/Bunting/Kerfoot/Mikheyev/Engvall/Spezza/Kase/etc. players that we had previously, especially when considering defensive and PK impacts as well. Not to mention how much we've tanked our 4th line since.

I'm going to assume that "Benoit gives us more than Muzzin" was a mistake, because that's just an insane thing to say. Benoit is a #6-7 with a roller coaster of a career so far. Muzzin was a consistent top pairing defenseman, and easily the 2nd best defenseman we've had in this era, at least. Rielly/Muzzin/Brodie easily beats out any other top 3 combination we've had, and OEL/Liljegren/Hakanpaa/Benoit don't really surpass the Giordano/Liljegren/Holl/Sandin/Bogosian/Dermott group we've had previously.

This is actually the most uncertain goaltending we've ever really had. Woll and Stolarz aren't exactly a step above. I get why people are optimistic, but these are two wildly unproven goalies. Neither of these goalies have played more than 28 games in a season, and neither of these goalies have been #1 goalies or even really proper tandem goalies in their NHL careers. Stolarz had a good year last year in a short sample, but the last time we acquired somebody coming off great results in a small sample (Mrazek), they bombed. Samsonov last year was also coming off great results the year before, and he struggled. There are no guarantees in goaltending, and while our goaltending this year may turn out better, there isn't really a way to justify being better situated at this time.

The new coach bump is largely a myth. The group may respond better to a new and fresh voice, and that's the hope, but there isn't really any justification at this point to call it an upgrade.

We still have a good opportunity to win, because people really underrate how good we actually were 2020-2023, but at this point, we'll likely need something unexpected to fall our way in order to surpass the quality of team we had back then.

Again, it's not really fair to compare this upcoming season with a three year window. For example, you list both Hyman and Bunting as the comparable and they never played together. Engvall was decent, but not a real contributor in the year when we had Hyman. You need to pick a specific year l, the best one from this window if we are going to do an actual compare.

"Benoit gives us more than Muzzin" absolutely if we are talking 2022-23 when Jake played four games, probably even more than the year before when he gave us 47. He didn't play 1.5 of the years in this three year window. No doubt, when healthy and available Muzzin was much better than Benoit and probably any other dman we have.

NOTE: the parsed my quote on Muzzin to leave out "was able to". Clearly I was referring to his injury and the fact that he played only around 50% of the games in the three year window being discussed.

I can't dispute we have some uncertainty in the goaltending. I like the tandem and it's probably better than our end of Campbell, Mrazek, Murray and Samsonov years.

Which of those three years do you think was the best? I will do a compare and remember, I am not saying this is the best Leaf team ever I am challenging the statement that this team is "nowhere near" the best team in the Matthews era.

 

[jaric1862]

Kampf just like Jarnkrok are everyday NHL players, most teams in this league would be more than happy to have them, especially because both signed to very affordable contracts. Their contracts only pose a problem here in Toront, because of 4 guys who are being somewhat overpaid.

Just because the dough head former GM compounded his own idiotic mistake by spending a first round pick on a player he truly overpaid, instead of eating 2.5m of his remaining deal doesn't mean it's always going to be a means to an end.

It's not that they aren't capable NHL players, it's the price for cap relief. All teams around the league are aware of Toronto's cap issues ... they're not going to help us out of a bind for free.

The Mathieu Joseph trade from this summer is a good example. Similar abilities/cap hit/term to Kampf/Jarnkrok.

 

[Antropovsky]

I don't see any opinion presented as fact. Not sure what you're talking about. I believe the additions made us worse because we had a worse record after, worse defensive results after, the additions didn't play very well as individuals, and we lost and had one of our worst underlying playoff performances in part due to glaring transition struggles that seemed to pop up when we overloaded with defensemen with poor transition ability.

There are many variables that change outcomes of seasons. But let's look at the GA in recent playoffs:

Leafs allowed 16 goals in 7 games vs Boston in 2024. With injury to their selke center.

Leafs allowed 21 goals in 7 games vs Tampa in 2023

Leafs allowed 14 goals in 5 games vs Florida in 2023

Leafs allowed 23 goals in 7 games vs Tampa in 2022.

Seems the Leafs allowed their lowest goal totals in a while this past playoffs with their defensive core.

 

[Dekes For Days]

There are many variables that change outcomes of seasons. But let's look at the GA in recent playoffs:
Leafs allowed 16 goals in 7 games vs Boston in 2024. With injury to their selke center.
Leafs allowed 21 goals in 7 games vs Tampa in 2023
Leafs allowed 14 goals in 5 games vs Florida in 2023
Leafs allowed 23 goals in 7 games vs Tampa in 2022.
Seems the Leafs allowed their lowest goal totals in a while this past playoffs with their defensive core.

Not only is this not really related to my post, but you still seem to be mixing up goaltending and defense.

 

[freshwind]

Are you old enough to remember Hal Gill?

lol, totally unrelated but for some reason this made me think of mike from buffalo calling andy frost "good evening mr frost, i am calling to discuss one mr aki berg"