Trades and Free Agency - 2022 Off-season

[Dekes For Days]

Evidently the chicago blackhawks are trading kane to the oilers with 50% retained. This deal will be huge for the whole nhl. The oilers are really driving hard now.

Where did you see this?

 

[Americanadian]

But how? RNH or Hyman going the other way?

It would probably be Puljujarvi and Foegele.

 

[Stephen]

So we were supposed to throw 2 young middle 6 wingers overboard so we could keep a broken down old as dirt Marleau during our contention window?

If Dubas had of done something that stupid people like you would be holding it against him as another mistake…

The thing is Dubas traded those guys a season later, and neither of them were special. So there’s got to be some better evaluation and insight in house as to who these players are and if they’re having success because they play with the Big Boys.

 

[notDatsyuk]

What about wasting johnsson as a trade chip.. not trading him earlier

Same with Dermott.. didnt capitalize on his value a year and a half earlier than eventually did.

And i miss barabanov but understand that one

Sorry - you may have missed the sarcasm.

 

[andora]

Sorry - you may have missed the sarcasm.

I just felt the need to whine about the couple that have bothered me... it was late

 

[Hockey 4 Life]

Who cares what has gone on in the past. The team either gets it done this season or major changes are coming. The Leafs are a playoff team as is currently, let the young players fight for a spot and see how they do. If none of them can fill the necessary holes on the team by January then we make a trade and push for a cup.

 

[Sypher04]

Evidently the chicago blackhawks are trading kane to the oilers with 50% retained. This deal will be huge for the whole nhl. The oilers are really driving hard now.

I’ll believe it when I see it. I don’t believe anyone credible has claimed this to be the case

 

[stickty111]

Evidently the chicago blackhawks are trading kane to the oilers with 50% retained. This deal will be huge for the whole nhl. The oilers are really driving hard now.

Not true. Someone misquoted an Oilers reporter on Twitter

 

[stickty111]

Where did you see this?

Apparently Principe said Kane should be plan A for the Oilers, than twitter misquoted and said Kane is plan A for the Oilers. There is a difference in the 2 statements

 

[Voodoo Child]

Apparently Principe said Kane should be plan A for the Oilers, than twitter misquoted and said Kane is plan A for the Oilers. There is a difference in the 2 statements

I mean McJesus or no…do you see Kane waiving to go to Edmonton? I don’t know the stipulations of his NMC but I bet with all he’s done for the organization he can veto any trade to any team like he orders coffee.

And at 50% even for one year, he’d walk to 100 points with McDavid or Drai. Edmonton would need to give up a ‘23 1st, one of Bouchard/Broberg, Puljuarvi and a competent roster player just for him.

Los Angeles, New York, Florida or even here, I’m sure he’d take that trade - but Edmonton? I’m not seeing it. I could see Toews waiving to play with McDavid and he makes sense - he plays 200 foot hockey - but where does he play?

The Oilers would be better off trying to yank a retained EK from San Jose, he has term (a lot of term…) but would cost way less and help them more.

 

[LeafSteel]

Rubbish.

Why would Edmonton go after Kane? He’s never played for the Leafs.

That in itself should disqualify the whole rumour…….

 

[Martin Skoula]

I mean McJesus or no…do you see Kane waiving to go to Edmonton? I don’t know the stipulations of his NMC but I bet with all he’s done for the organization he can veto any trade to any team like he orders coffee.

And at 50% even for one year, he’d walk to 100 points with McDavid or Drai. Edmonton would need to give up a ‘23 1st, one of Bouchard/Broberg, Puljuarvi and a competent roster player just for him.

Los Angeles, New York, Florida or even here, I’m sure he’d take that trade - but Edmonton? I’m not seeing it. I could see Toews waiving to play with McDavid and he makes sense - he plays 209 foot hockey - but where does he play?

The Oilers would be better off trying to yank a retained EK from San Jose, he has term (a lot of term…) but would cost way less and help them more.

Is Towes playing 209 foot hockey a nice way of saying he belongs 9 feet away from the rink at this point?

 

[Dekes For Days]

The thing is Dubas traded those guys a season later, and neither of them were special. So there’s got to be some better evaluation and insight in house as to who these players are and if they’re having success because they play with the Big Boys.

They were traded a year later because the cap stagnated (so did they to an extent), and because we wanted to allocate more to defense and goaltending, and re-sign other depth forwards. We probably shouldn't have played them with Matthews in a contract year, but them not being "special" is largely hindsight, and regardless of how "special" they were, they helped us infinitely more than a whole bunch of dead cap.

 

[Dreakmur]

At forward, we had further development from Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Kapanen, and Johnsson, and a full year from Nylander.

We had the development of Matthews. We had the full season from Nylander but he's never really developed - he's been the exact same player for 6 years now. We had the stagnation of Marner.

We had the stagnation and/or regression of Kapanen and Johnsson. That was predicted, and why they should have been traded before their values dropped.

The primary changes were Kadri, Marleau, Brown, Ennis, and Lindholm for Kerfoot, Spezza, Mikyehev, Engvall, and Timashov, who actually performed at a slightly higher average P/GP and brought more defensive ability.

That's a pretty significant downgrade. Losing Kadri's edge was much more impactful than the points he scored. Losing Marleau's leadership was much more impactful than the points he scored. No coincidence the kids went sideways as soon as he left.

On defense, we had further development from Dermott.

He never developed, which is why he ended up getting traded.

The primary changes were Zaitsev, (a broken down) Gardiner, Hainsey, and Ozhiganov for Muzzin, Barrie, Ceci, and Holl. That's a clear upgrade,

Muzzin was there the year before.

Gardiner may have been broken down, but he was better than Barrie. He may have been bad defensively, but he wasn't as bad as Barrie, and he scored at a similar rate, and he didn't have to take Rielly's PP time to do it.

Hainsey was clearly better than Ceci, and Zaitsev was much better than Holl.

That's a clear downgrade.

and part of the reason our defensive results improved from bottom of the league to middle of the pack.

Our defensive results went the other way. 18th in goals against in 2019 to 27th in 2020.

The only real change in goal was Sparks to Hutchinson, which wasn't a notable change.

Backup goaltending was a huge problem that Dubas didn't address.

We were anywhere from the same to better, which is why when the next coach came in, we played at a 103 point pace the rest of the way, despite significant injuries and Andersen falling off.

Despite supposedly being way better, we lost to the weakest 1st round opponent we had faced up to that point.... only to be outdone the next year.

The biggest thing Dubas did to sabotage Babcock was give the kids permission to quit. He took all the guardrails off and made it very clear that he wanted to fire Babcock.

 

[Stephen]

They were traded a year later because the cap stagnated (so did they to an extent), and because we wanted to allocate more to defense and goaltending, and re-sign other depth forwards. We probably shouldn't have played them with Matthews in a contract year, but them not being "special" is largely hindsight, and regardless of how "special" they were, they helped us infinitely more than a whole bunch of dead cap.

They were traded because they’re average players who deliver less than their cap hit. Which the Leafs made an evaluation and bet on that they’d be more valuable than the first round pick they gave up to ditch Marleau. Aka an error.

 

[TheKrebsCycle]

It would probably be Puljujarvi and Foegele.

Lol and how many 1sts going the other way ?

 

[Dekes For Days]

We had the development of Matthews. We had the full season from Nylander but he's never really developed - he's been the exact same player for 6 years now. We had the stagnation of Marner.
We had the stagnation and/or regression of Kapanen and Johnsson. That was predicted, and why they should have been traded before their values dropped.
That's a pretty significant downgrade. Losing Kadri's edge was much more impactful than the points he scored. Losing Marleau's leadership was much more impactful than the points he scored. No coincidence the kids went sideways as soon as he left.
He never developed, which is why he ended up getting traded.
Muzzin was there the year before.
Gardiner may have been broken down, but he was better than Barrie. He may have been bad defensively, but he wasn't as bad as Barrie, and he scored at a similar rate, and he didn't have to take Rielly's PP time to do it.
Hainsey was clearly better than Ceci, and Zaitsev was much better than Holl.
That's a clear downgrade.
Our defensive results went the other way. 18th in goals against in 2019 to 27th in 2020.
Backup goaltending was a huge problem that Dubas didn't address.
Despite supposedly being way better, we lost to the weakest 1st round opponent we had faced up to that point.... only to be outdone the next year.
The biggest thing Dubas did to sabotage Babcock was give the kids permission to quit. He took all the guardrails off and made it very clear that he wanted to fire Babcock.

Lmao. Wow. Pretty much everything you wrote here was wrong, so it's hard to know where to even start...

Not sure how you're coming to the conclusion that an identical group of young players at a more developed age is worse. That you'd actually claim something so obviously untrue like that Nylander hasn't developed at all over the past 6 years is mind-boggling, not to mention the fact that you're completely dismissing the difference between half a season and a full season of one of our better players.

Muzzin, Barrie, Ceci, Holl, Kerfoot, Spezza, Mikyehev, Engvall, and Timashov is a better group than Zaitsev, (a broken down) Gardiner, Hainsey, Ozhiganov, Kadri, (a broken down) Marleau, Brown, Ennis, and Lindholm. It's an improvement in defensive ability without loss of offense, and there's really no argument otherwise, which is why you resort to fluff words like "edge" and "leadership" - which we didn't even lose; we just stopped massively overpaying for. Muzzin wasn't one of our main 6 defensemen through most of the prior season; only joining closer to the end. Either way, that's an improvement.

Our defensive results did not go the other way. They improved from 23rd in the league to 16th. You know this, which is why you point to a stat (that you didn't even get the right rankings for) that represents defense and goaltending, knowing that the goaltending we received was worse because our inherited starting goalie fell off. There's no notable difference between Sparks and Hutchinson (who wasn't even that bad to end the previous season). Backup goaltending actually was addressed with Campbell, and part of the reason it was hard to get good performances out of our backup goaltending is because Babcock stubbornly refused to utilize them properly and fed them to the wolves.

Nobody went "sideways". Nobody "quit". Nobody "gave permission to quit". Babcock was given a quality roster, and sabotaged himself. Then the next coach came in, and we played at a 103 point pace the rest of the way with the same roster, despite significant injuries and Andersen falling off.

Whether or not Dubas wanted to fire Babcock is irrelevant. He obviously didn't sabotage his team and himself in order to fire him. That's beyond ridiculous.

 

[LeafChief]

We had the development of Matthews. We had the full season from Nylander but he's never really developed - he's been the exact same player for 6 years now. We had the stagnation of Marner.

We had the stagnation and/or regression of Kapanen and Johnsson. That was predicted, and why they should have been traded before their values dropped.



That's a pretty significant downgrade. Losing Kadri's edge was much more impactful than the points he scored. Losing Marleau's leadership was much more impactful than the points he scored. No coincidence the kids went sideways as soon as he left.



He never developed, which is why he ended up getting traded.



Muzzin was there the year before.

Gardiner may have been broken down, but he was better than Barrie. He may have been bad defensively, but he wasn't as bad as Barrie, and he scored at a similar rate, and he didn't have to take Rielly's PP time to do it.

Hainsey was clearly better than Ceci, and Zaitsev was much better than Holl.

That's a clear downgrade.



Our defensive results went the other way. 18th in goals against in 2019 to 27th in 2020.



Backup goaltending was a huge problem that Dubas didn't address.



Despite supposedly being way better, we lost to the weakest 1st round opponent we had faced up to that point.... only to be outdone the next year.

The biggest thing Dubas did to sabotage Babcock was give the kids permission to quit. He took all the guardrails off and made it very clear that he wanted to fire Babcock.

Ladies and gentleman we have now entered the 'conspiracy theory' portion of the summer.

A few more weeks till camp. Try not to have a full blown meltdown before that.

 

[Dekes For Days]

They were traded because they’re average players who deliver less than their cap hit. Which the Leafs made an evaluation and bet on that they’d be more valuable than the first round pick they gave up to ditch Marleau. Aka an error.

They were traded because the cap unexpectedly stagnated. At least one of them would have likely been kept otherwise. Just because we later decided to invest their money into defense, goaltending, and other depth forwards when faced with a tighter cap situation than anybody expected, that doesn't mean they were overpaid or bad, and it certainly doesn't mean that it was an error to keep them over literal dead cap during a competitive phase. We certainly got a king's ransom for Kapanen, based on the way you're describing him.

 

[Dreakmur]

Ladies and gentleman we have now entered the 'conspiracy theory' portion of the summer.

It's been common knowledge since like July of 2019.

Not sure how you're coming to the conclusion that an identical group of young players at a more developed age is worse. That you'd actually claim something so obviously untrue like that Nylander hasn't developed at all over the past 6 years is mind-boggling, not to mention the fact that you're completely dismissing the difference between half a season and a full season of one of our better players.

Just because they got older doesn't mean they got better.

Muzzin, Barrie, Ceci, Holl, Kerfoot, Spezza, Mikyehev, Engvall, and Timashov is a better group than Zaitsev, (a broken down) Gardiner, Hainsey, Ozhiganov, Kadri, (a broken down) Marleau, Brown, Ennis, and Lindholm. It's an improvement in defensive ability without loss of offense, and there's really no argument otherwise, which is why you resort to fluff words like "edge" and "leadership" - which we didn't even lose; we just stopped massively overpaying for. Muzzin wasn't one of our main 6 defensemen through most of the prior season; only joining closer to the end. Either way, that's an improvement.

The return of Nylander made the forward core about equal, but the blueline clearly got worse.

Our defensive results did not go the other way. They improved from 23rd in the league to 16th. You know this, which is why you point to a stat (that you didn't even get the right rankings for) that represents defense and goaltending, knowing that the goaltending we received was worse because our inherited starting goalie fell off. There's no notable difference between Sparks and Hutchinson (who wasn't even that bad to end the previous season). Backup goaltending actually was addressed with Campbell, and part of the reason it was hard to get good performances out of our backup goaltending is because Babcock stubbornly refused to utilize them properly and fed them to the wolves.

Muzzin wasn't added, since he was already here. I already showed that the blueline got worse, and that was reflected in the results.

Nobody went "sideways". Nobody "quit". Nobody "gave permission to quit". Babcock was given a quality roster, and sabotaged himself. Then the next coach came in, and we played at a 103 point pace the rest of the way with the same roster, despite significant injuries and Andersen falling off.

Oh, Matthews, Marner, and Nylander very obviously quit. That was even the vast majority of the justification for the firing.

Whether or not Dubas wanted to fire Babcock is irrelevant. He obviously didn't sabotage his team and himself in order to fire him. That's beyond ridiculous.

It's basic human nature.

 

[rocketman588]

They were traded because the cap unexpectedly stagnated. At least one of them would have likely been kept otherwise. Just because we later decided to invest their money into defense, goaltending, and other depth forwards when faced with a tighter cap situation than anybody expected, that doesn't mean they were overpaid or bad, and it certainly doesn't mean that it was an error to keep them over literal dead cap during a competitive phase. We certainly got a king's ransom for Kapanen, based on the way you're describing him.

Their combined cap hit was over 6. The cap wasn't going up more then 3/4no we didn't get rid of them because of a unexpected stagnant cap.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Just because they got older doesn't mean they got better.

Players generally improve as they develop, gain more experience, and enter their primes. The idea that we didn't see improvements from that grouping of players is unsupported and wrong. The idea that Nylander hasn't developed at all over the past 6 years is mind-bogglingly wrong, to the point where I am legitimately shocked you'd discredit your own argument so much by saying it.

The return of Nylander made the forward core about equal, but the blueline clearly got worse.
Muzzin wasn't added, since he was already here. I already showed that the blueline got worse, and that was reflected in the results.

The return of Nylander for a full season is one of multiple reasons why the forward core improved, and the blueline unquestionably improved. There is literally zero justifiable argument that our defense got worse. Muzzin was added for the full year, instead of just a portion towards the end, which is an improvement FYI. You haven't shown that our blueline got worse, or defensive results at all. You posted incorrect goals against rankings, which is a combination of defense (which improved) and goaltending (which got worse, primarily because Andersen fell off), to misrepresent our defensive results.

Oh, Matthews, Marner, and Nylander very obviously quit. That was even the vast majority of the justification for the firing.
It's basic human nature.

Matthews, Marner, and Nylander did not quit. Babcock was fired because he was dragging the team down, and the entire season was at risk.
It's not "basic human nature" for a GM to sabotage himself and his own team in order to fire somebody. That's a ridiculous conspiracy theory that's based on absolutely nothing.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Their combined cap hit was over 6. The cap wasn't going up more then 3/4no we didn't get rid of them because of a unexpected stagnant cap.

Without the unexpected stagnant cap, we would have likely kept one, and then traded one to do what we ended up doing - reallocate their money into defense, goaltending, and re-signing other depth forwards.

 

[LeafChief]

I think the three of you should get a DM thread going so we can limit the crying in this thread for a little bit but that's just me.

 

[Dekes For Days]

To help get things back on track...

I know that LTIR factors in for many of these situations, but it's really funny to look at Capfriendly and see half the league marked as over the cap. It seems there's a few teams obviously tanking, and then pretty much everybody else riding close to, at, or over the cap. League is in for a tough 2 years.

Also, has anybody heard anything about Jason Robertson negotiations? Maybe my perception is just skewed by the circus around our RFA signings, but it seems weird that I haven't heard anything all offseason about him.