Speculation: Trade Targets (Part II)

OrrNumber4

Registered User
Jul 25, 2002
16,739
6,197
Trade Clowe now. Shoot to make the playoffs and let it ride. Trade Boyle and whoever else before the draft and continue the refresh the roster, ideally with one or more pieces being NHL ready.

I'd wait to trade Boyle until next year.

There is no reason to think he's going to decline massively before then. Plus, it doesn't do as any favors to load up for just one draft. I'd want no more than 5 picks in the top-60, with no more than two picks in the first-round.
 

hogtownhabsfan*

Guest
A (radio) report coming out of Montreal is that the Habs have officially offered Louis Leblanc and Nashvilles 2nd rounder for Clowe.

Montreal has their own, Calgary's, and Nashvilles 2nd rounders.
 

hockeyball

Registered User
Nov 10, 2007
21,560
944
A (radio) report coming out of Montreal is that the Habs have officially offered Louis Leblanc and Nashvilles 2nd rounder for Clowe.

Montreal has their own, Calgary's, and Nashvilles 2nd rounders.

It's not terrible. Rather have Kristo or Collberg or Koko from the Bruins. Bruins will likely counter with Koko and a 2nd, and that works for me.
 

hogtownhabsfan*

Guest
Change it to Calgary's and I would take it in a heartbeat. Leblanc is going to make it big.

If the report is true, I'm sure San Jose is trying to upgrade that pick to Calgary's. That pick could be immediately after the one Calgary just received from Pittsburgh for Iginla! :laugh:

Leblanc is a pretty obvious trade chip. Former first rounder who was on the fast track then just broke under the pressure of being the great french hope in Montreal this season. But he's one of those rare prospects whose got top 6 upside, as well as the ability to play in a checking role on a third line.
 

pappaf2

Registered User
Feb 24, 2009
2,060
782
Bay Area, CA
I'd wait to trade Boyle until next year.

There is no reason to think he's going to decline massively before then. Plus, it doesn't do as any favors to load up for just one draft. I'd want no more than 5 picks in the top-60, with no more than two picks in the first-round.

I'd prefer to never trade Boyle. Give him a multi year deal after this one so he can retire a shark.
 

Barrie22

Shark fan in hiding
Aug 11, 2009
25,552
7,004
ontario
If the report is true, I'm sure San Jose is trying to upgrade that pick to Calgary's. That pick could be immediately after the one Calgary just received from Pittsburgh for Iginla! :laugh:

Leblanc is a pretty obvious trade chip. Former first rounder who was on the fast track then just broke under the pressure of being the great french hope in Montreal this season. But he's one of those rare prospects whose got top 6 upside, as well as the ability to play in a checking role on a third line.

so basically sheppard 2.0, rushed into the nhl and then basically ruined by the media/fans/organization?
 

OrrNumber4

Registered User
Jul 25, 2002
16,739
6,197
I'd prefer to never trade Boyle. Give him a multi year deal after this one so he can retire a shark.

From a hockey POV, this may have to happen.

Playing as he is, Boyle is a great enough player that he's never going to be redundant. But, if SJ's other defensemen can maintain their play, he becomes expendable. His salary could be used to shore up other parts of the roster.

Forget about Burns, Vlasic, Stuart, Braun, Demers, and Irwin, which itself is a fairly good defense. The Sharks also have Petrecki, who Robinson thinks is ready for prime-time. They have Acolaste, Doherty, Abeltshauser, Tennyson, Demelo...one has to think that one of those D-men is going to become a solid #2-4 guy within the next 3 years.

If Boyle were 31 and signed for the next five years, I'd advocate trading the prospects instead.
 

OrrNumber4

Registered User
Jul 25, 2002
16,739
6,197
and he's the biggest marleau homer on this board lol.

Thornton is generally loved. He doesn't really need defenders. Stupid attacks about Joe Thornton's lack of passion, clutchness, regression with age are quickly shot down. Marleau gets unfairly attacked for this perception that he is inconsistent and heartless. This is a more widely-held tenet. Marleau needs defenders.
 

lsx

Registered User
Oct 19, 2010
3,199
22
Sonoma County, CA
From a hockey POV, this may have to happen.

Playing as he is, Boyle is a great enough player that he's never going to be redundant. But, if SJ's other defensemen can maintain their play, he becomes expendable. His salary could be used to shore up other parts of the roster.

Forget about Burns, Vlasic, Stuart, Braun, Demers, and Irwin, which itself is a fairly good defense. The Sharks also have Petrecki, who Robinson thinks is ready for prime-time. They have Acolaste, Doherty, Abeltshauser, Tennyson, Demelo...one has to think that one of those D-men is going to become a solid #2-4 guy within the next 3 years.

If Boyle were 31 and signed for the next five years, I'd advocate trading the prospects instead.

You've gotta have a couple of good veterans on a young team to be mentors and leaders even if you're not planing on being a contender, Boyle is the perfect solution if he takes a discount to stay in SJ for his next contract.
 

Barrie22

Shark fan in hiding
Aug 11, 2009
25,552
7,004
ontario
You've gotta have a couple of good veterans on a young team to be mentors and leaders even if you're not planing on being a contender, Boyle is the perfect solution if he takes a discount to stay in SJ for his next contract.

the thing is, in san jose you don't really need the older vets like thornton, boyle, marleau. because the 2nd tier of players, vlasic (7 years in league), pavs (7 years in league), and even couture (4 years in league) are basically vets in the meaning of the word.

if those players have not learnt yet what it takes to win in the nhl, then they just aren't going to get it.
 

OrrNumber4

Registered User
Jul 25, 2002
16,739
6,197
the thing is, in san jose you don't really need the older vets like thornton, boyle, marleau. because the 2nd tier of players, vlasic (7 years in league), pavs (7 years in league), and even couture (4 years in league) are basically vets in the meaning of the word.

if those players have not learnt yet what it takes to win in the nhl, then they just aren't going to get it.

Possibly true.

Don't forget, Stuart is "old" and experienced. Vlasic and Burns both have a ton of experience. Plus, the Sharks can always sign a #6-7 guy who fits the bill.

Plus, up front, Thornton, Marleau, Havlat, Pavelski, Gomez, etc. all fit the bill. And again, the team will always have a veteran or two on the lower lines.

Again, I'm not at all advocating trading Thornton or Marleau.
 

Juxtaposer

Outro: Divina Comedia
Dec 21, 2009
49,888
23,248
Bay Area
Thornton is generally loved. He doesn't really need defenders. Stupid attacks about Joe Thornton's lack of passion, clutchness, regression with age are quickly shot down. Marleau gets unfairly attacked for this perception that he is inconsistent and heartless. This is a more widely-held tenet. Marleau needs defenders.

Exactly. I love Thornton almost as much as Marleau, but it seems like I like Marleau way more because I need to defend him more.
 

Blades of Glory

Troll Captain
Feb 12, 2006
18,401
6
California
Regardless of the team's position in the standings, DW is only going to make a move that makes the team better. He already has, just by virtue of getting Douglas Murray off the ice. As horrific as the last two months have been, the chances of this team actually missing the playoffs were and still are exponentially higher in our panic-inclined brains than in reality. I don't think most people (other than Shark fans, of course) understand just how devastating it was for this team when Douglas Murray, Michael Handzus, and Adam Burish stepped foot on the ice. I don't want to make it sound like those three are alone responsible for the Sharks' struggles in the last two months. Bad luck has played a big role. Thornton, Marleau, Couture, and Pavelski are world-class players and they have played like ones throughout this season, as they do every season. They are amassing zone entries, possession, and scoring chances like always. The simple truth is that for the last two months, the puck just would not go into the net at the rate it should considering the caliber of players they are and how they have performed. The Sharks have been horrific at times, but also downright unlucky. The puck was bound to start going into the net at a rate more indicative of the talent at the top of this team's roster. This team has enough top-end talent to go on a playoff run and that is one of the reasons I doubt DW is seriously considering trading Boyle. The entire puck possession system that the Sharks play is based around him moving the puck out of their zone. Brent Burns was acquired to be a secondary puck-mover, as a complement to Boyle and for the other forward lines (Boyle has almost exclusively played with Thornton's line since 2009). There are very few defensemen in the league, maybe 4-5, that can move the puck like Boyle can. There is no way that the Sharks will be able to replace his impact during the season. If he goes, it would be during the summer. Plus, I just don't see him leaving the Sharks. Honestly, I don't.

I would love to add a top-six forward, especially a right-handed shooter, but there are not enough sellers in this market and this is exactly when desperate GM's (which DW has never been) try to justify paying a premium price for a mediocre player. Or paying anything at all for a legitimately bad player. This is a market where Ray Shero, who is certainly in the upper echelon of his profession, was compelled to trade a fairly valuable asset, probably a meaningless one to Pittsburgh, but still an asset nonetheless for Douglas freakin' Murray.
 

lsx

Registered User
Oct 19, 2010
3,199
22
Sonoma County, CA
the thing is, in san jose you don't really need the older vets like thornton, boyle, marleau. because the 2nd tier of players, vlasic (7 years in league), pavs (7 years in league), and even couture (4 years in league) are basically vets in the meaning of the word.

if those players have not learnt yet what it takes to win in the nhl, then they just aren't going to get it.

None of those are elite offensive defensemen...do you want Irwin and Demers taking lessons from Vlasic? ;)
 

Juxtaposer

Outro: Divina Comedia
Dec 21, 2009
49,888
23,248
Bay Area
Vlasic is literally better at batting a puck forward in mid-air than he is at skating forward with it on his stick.

I swear, Vlasic confuses me so much. How can someone be so good at a couple things, and then so bad at others.

If you could combine Burns and Vlasic, you'd have the perfect defenseman. Basically a bigger Lidstrom.
 

Mafoofoo

Jawesome
Jul 3, 2010
18,922
5,111
Laguna Beach
That's because you two are the biggest Thornton-homers on this board. :P

Soon I alone will be the biggest homer. It's just a matter of time.

I swear, Vlasic confuses me so much. How can someone be so good at a couple things, and then so bad at others.

If you could combine Burns and Vlasic, you'd have the perfect defenseman. Basically a bigger Lidstrom.

It's the result of spending his entire youth doing cool guy tricks with the puck to impress the ladies and never actually practicing skating with it.
 

Tkachuk4MVP

32 Years of Fail
Apr 15, 2006
14,841
2,774
San Diego, CA
I swear, Vlasic confuses me so much. How can someone be so good at a couple things, and then so bad at others.

If you could combine Burns and Vlasic, you'd have the perfect defenseman. Basically a bigger Lidstrom.


Another thing that boggles my mind about Vlasic is that despite his lack of offensive ability and average puck-moving skills, every single D partner he's ever had has played their best hockey when paired with him. That's probably not a huge surprise for offensive defensemen like Boyle, Burns, and Demers who allow him to sit back and do his thing, but even guys like Stuart and Murray are better with him. It just goes to show how well he does all of the little things that "don't show up on the score sheet" as they say.
 

hohosaregood

Banned
Sep 1, 2011
32,998
13,618
Hypothetically, which players would you guys be willing to trade Hertl or Nieto or any of our other better prospects for.
 

Blades of Glory

Troll Captain
Feb 12, 2006
18,401
6
California
Another thing that boggles my mind about Vlasic is that despite his lack of offensive ability and average puck-moving skills, every single D partner he's ever had has played their best hockey when paired with him. That's probably not a huge surprise for offensive defensemen like Boyle, Burns, and Demers who allow him to sit back and do his thing, but even guys like Stuart and Murray are better with him. It just goes to show how well he does all of the little things that "don't show up on the score sheet" as they say.

Vlasic does many things that are quantified statistically. Unfortunately, the NHL is by in large still stuck in the dark ages when it comes to advanced performance metrics. And that is primarily because the mainstream media that covers the NHL, whether it be writers or television analysts (especially on NHL Network), are almost exclusively "old-school", traditionalist hockey men who much prefer to conform to what every other traditionalist, old-school hockey man says rather than try to provide readers or viewers with something new and innovative. The funny thing is that ESPN provides fantastic NHL coverage on it's website from Pierre Lebrun and Craig Custance, and has made a commitment to making advanced stats a very large part of their online coverage (it is all Insider though). Yet next to a great (and very in-depth) article by Custance on a potential Sharks' roster "reset", there is a video of Barry Melrose probably saying something typically accurate like "Marleau doesn't want to pay the price to score goals in the playoffs."

Honestly, NHL fans are actually far more knowledgeable and innovative about the sport than the people paid to talk about it. Mention Corsi or PDO or Fenwick or CorsiQualComp to Craig Button, who shows up on NHL Network and TSN quite often, and he might respond with "Douglas Murray is good at moving the puck." Which, BTW, he actually said on TSN last week. I was in a bar in Mexico, which happened to have TSN on, and I literally laughed out loud when I heard him say that. Maybe he meant to say, "the player with the puck is good at moving around Douglas Murray." Hell, the HockeyNews ranked Joe Thornton as the 40th best player in the NHL prior to this season. Even if you use points (12th in the NHL/4th in the West) or assists (3rd in the NHL), that doesn't make sense. But if you go to behindthenet, you will find that no player since they began tracking those stats (5 years) has posted a higher Corsi with a higher CorsiQualComp than Thornton did last year. He was outplaying elite competition at a rate only approached by two other players (who happened to be his linemates). Shows you how dominant that line was last year.

Anyways, my point is that Vlasic is all over the advanced stat sheets. Only two defensemen in the NHL last year posted a higher Corsi (on-ice shot diff) while facing a higher level of competition than Vlasic did. Both were 10-15 years older than him. One was a stud veteran (Kimmo Timonen) and the other was quite possibly the 2nd best defenseman of all-time. I know that the Sharks (along with Detroit and most of the other long-time puck possession teams) value Corsi and other advanced stats. That's why they locked him down long-term. Now, Vlasic and Boyle did play almost exclusively with the Thornton line, so they all did have something to do with the Corsi rate being so high. But the fact that they dominated such high competition as a 5 man unit is extremely impressive. Boyle, Thornton, Marleau, and Pavelski simply played keep away from the opposition like no other four-man unit could. But when Boyle happens to be behind the other teams net and Thornton blindly drops a pass to no one (both are common occurrences), someone had to clean up the mess. :laugh:
 

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