Rumor: Trade Rumor Thread IV - "What's all the roar over RoR?"

[Maaxse]

At this point I'll just trust the fact that, concering what is going to happen with RoR, management knows better than I.

 

[Kwayry]

Del Zotto is our only 'point producing' defenseman. It's not a fact, however, as Girardi and Staal both put up over 30 points themselves. But here's the difference: they did it while shutting down oppositions' top offensive players.

Nobody said that. He is our only 40 point producing dman.

He has very good hands, and good vision, but his draw backs, and brain farts are preventing him from taking the next step.

DZ has not reached his ceiling, he is already better than he was last year. He will never be a Staal or Girardi, but he has, and will have, the better offensive production.

Del Zotto will get paid big on his next deal. 5+ million per. For a guy who will be trapped behind McDonagh, Staal, and Girardi. That makes him a #4. You do not pay a #4 that kind of money...while also lacking depth down the middle.

Says who? For all we know he may be paid in the same range as Girardi and Staal.
Everybody was saying he is getting 3.5M+ for his current contract, he ended up with 2.55M.

Rangers need to address the center depth. O'Reilly does that long-term.

Maximizing value, Del Zotto, a luxury, for a future need.

DZ is a luxury?
If any of the top 4 gets injured, guess who has to fill in? Eminger and/or Bickell.

3C is a future need?
I thought Miller was the future 3rd line Center.
This is the list of centers in the pipeline:
Lindberg, Nieves, MSC if he pans out as I think he will.

Is RoR better than anyone of them? Sure, but the difference is not worth DZ.

 

[smoneil]

Simple question here. Do we ever see them again?

I was for the acquisition of Rick Nash, however, I am now beginning to think that what we gave up, we did not replcace.

When do their contracts expire.......and does sather try to bring either of them back?

Does anyone here actually want either of them back?

It completely depends on the team's needs and the other players available when/if those two hit the market. Nobody burned any bridges after the trade, and management had very positive things to say about the guys being sent to Columbus (especially Dubi). I loved having both of them as Rangers, and if it were me, I'd sign them both the second they were available. That said--Sather and Torts (if that's who's in charge in two years' time when they hit the market) have a job to do, and they can't approach that job like fans. If Dubi or AA fit a need better than anyone else on the market, and the price makes sense, I have no doubt one or both of them could return. If not, I don't doubt that Sather/Torts will sign the guy they think is the better fit.

 

[NewLife]

If we do trade for ROR and pay $4-5M, do you think Sather "have to" hand out a similar contract to Stepan?

If so Richards is basically gone.

 

[RangerBoy]

Can we stop with the generalizations? Two comparables were brought up with DZ's 2nd contract. Bogosian at 2 years/$5M and Johnson at 2 years/$5.2M. What did DZ get? 2 years/$5.1M. Right in the middle. Based on what other similar players received such as Carlson and Fowler received in 2nd contracts,DZ was in line for those contracts in longer term deals. Isn't DZ a 40 point D? Staal and Girardi aren't 40 point D. You can't have it both ways. The point guys get paid more.

What did Freidman report last Saturday?

I believe that this week the Avalanche and the New York Rangers went down the road to see what a deal would look like. They talked about Ryan O’Reilly and one of Colorado’s defensemen for a package that I believe would have included Michael Del Zotto, a player that the Avalanche really like. As Colorado started asking for more and more the Rangers pulled back and said ‘no.’ So that is off right now.

http://snyrangersblog.com/znhl-play...asked-for-michael-del-zotto-for-ryan-oreilly/

Then he wrote

6. As mentioned on Hotstove Tonight, Colorado began the process of approaching teams it considers possible trade partners. One was definitely the New York Rangers. I had originally thought the deal involved Michael del Zotto and Derek Stepan for O'Reilly and another defenceman. However, it was strongly denied that Stepan was ever discussed, so I think I was wrong. The Denver Post's Adrian Dater has reported the Avalanche are not as interested in getting a centre back.

7. Even so, del Zotto is exactly the kind of player Colorado would want. Tyson Barrie's goal on Monday against the Nashville Predators was the first by an Avalanche blue-liner this season. I've been asked what defenceman the Rangers liked, but don't have a definite answer. Earlier this season, I'd heard New York was looking for a right-handed shot. However, del Zotto is a lefty.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opinion/2013/02/30-thoughts-hockey-socks-and-safety.html

The Rangers have checked in on Ryan O’Reilly, but are very unlikely to pursue a deal for Colorado’s unsigned restricted free-agent center, The Post has learned.

It is not the yet undetermined cost in assets that the Blueshirts — whose three-game winning streak ended with Thursday night’s 4-3 shootout loss to the Islanders at the Garden — would have to send to the Avalanche in order to acquire the 22-year-old pivot, but rather O’Reilly’s asking price for a contract that is discouraging a pursuit by general manager Glen Sather.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/rangers/blueshirts_unlikely_to_make_offer_R4TiUkMs6m8t18w51TAc2N

The Rangers leak when they have an agenda. They have leaked to Brooks in the past. Richards contract. There was the story in the Post about Richards being too expensive for the Rangers and they wouldn't pursue him. During the Nash stuff,they would leak to Brooks about which players were untouchable and what Columbus was requesting. The Rangers got both guys for their price and on their terms. The same scenario has to work with O'Reilly. The player needs to lower his asking price. Colorado needs to lower their price. Both of those sides need each other but they aren't even talking.

 

[Ail]

Going to be another long day of speculation and trying to convince each other what is or isn't possible.

Del Zotto is both a luxury and not at the same time. I keep seeing the for trading him side (myself included) say he is a luxury, and then the don't trade him side try and refute it, but truthfully we are both right.

Del Zotto's "skills" (which I think some people are over hyping just as much as others are downplaying) as a puck moving defensemen are absolutely 100% a luxury. No where in the lexicon of how to win the Cup does it say you NEED blueliners who can score goals, start a rush and make long outlet passes to succeed. All of those things can be done just as well with proper forward depth. Is it nice to have a 4th forward on the ice who can also play defense? Of course. Is it necessary? No.

However when you look at what Del Zotto brings to the defensive side, and the minutes he logs, he is very much a need, at least for the time being. I think we can all agree on the fact that if Del Zotto is moved they will need to replace him. Unfortunately at the moment they are not at liberty to do so within the organization. So if you don't like the idea of Barrie or anyone else who Colorado might include in a potential deal, why not start making alternative suggestions instead of poopooing on a trade that would otherwise make sense?

If you disagree with deal being good for NYR completely, I understand that, but focusing on who is going to replace his minutes isn't really the major issue rather than the fact that RoR may not be as valuable to this organization in the long run than MDZ will. Which I respectfully disagree with.

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

Let's give up assets to get ROR, who won't even sign a contract


OR

give up nothing, sign Getzlaf this summer, and buy out Bucktooth Beaver

Then continue to pray that Stepan plays like a #2C which seems to be the norm here

Boyle/Miller/Halpern fill out the bottom 2 lines

 

[Trxjw]

The team he never played for because they cut him out of training camp. A team that at the time had a horrendous defense. Yeah. That team.

I'm not misinterpreting Torts' quote at all, btw. You can find it earlier in this thread, where he clearly said that they obviously don't want Stralman playing that many minutes. And the rumor reported was that Stepan and Del Zotto were non-starters. Not a package of Del Zotto and whatever the + was--Stepan and Del Zotto, as players, were non-starters.

They cut him and he ended up on our team playing just fine. Cut from a team that made a stupid decision? Yeah. That team.

He played him in Girardi's spot. Girardi gets 25 minutes a night. That's not 2nd pairing minutes.

That player would not be in the NHL on a team with a half-decent defense. He's not a bad player--he has potential, and I could see him maxing out as an average 2nd pairing guy, but he's not in the same stratosphere as Del Zotto. He'll be lucky if he turns out like Tyutin.

Considering he plays nothing like Tyutin, I'm just going to agree to disagree. Simply don't trust your judgement after that comment.

You think he could be replaced by a rookie on his first cup of coffee in the NHL. So no, you did not literally write out "he would be easy to replace" but you imply it with every post you make. Ten years--one guy managed to do it, and you want to trade that one guy for another lotto ticket. You're like Peter Griffin with the mystery box.

Incorrectly interpreting what I'm saying and then arguing against it is a waste of time. Rozsival hit 40 points. So this "ten years" stuff is nonsense. Never once did I say that legitimate offensive defensemen are easy to find, or easy to replace. All I said was that Barrie has the potential to bring what Del Zotto brings. Sorry if you can't see that. Not my problem.

And Miller, while not ideal, is fine for right now. His offense isn't all there, but I've been pleasantly surprised by how composed he is defensively and in the faceoff circle. I'd be nervous if the playoffs started today, but I'm confident that in a couple of months, he would be an acceptable option. Not as good as O'Reilly, to be sure, but Miller and MDZ gives us a better chance to win than Miller and O'Reilly in my view.

So Miller playing 3rd line center, who is turning the puck over several times per game, and played all of 9 minutes last night, is "fine for right now" but Barrie, who is playing 20 minutes a night is not? Quite the double standard you have going there.

It's called applying your logic to other situations. You don't seem to believe your own argument when it doesn't suit you. What should that tell you about the validity of that argument?

So, can you point me to where I said it was a certainty? Does the term "straw man" mean anything to you?

He fell in the draft because he was a lousy skater (and he's still not great at that part of the game) and because his goal totals went DOWN in his second year in juniors, and because he didn't have a noticeable jump in overall production in his second year in juniors. In short--he fell because of his offense. Why do I question whether he can improve that offense? Easy--I love heart and soul players. There are not many better kinds of player in my mind. That said, heart and soul players with top-shelf talent are better. O'Reilly has never really had that talent offensively. As Kent Wilson (Calgary based hockey writer) noted in his pre-draft analysis of O'Reilly--it's great to hear that a player has intangibles--but when that's ALL you keep hearing about a player, it raises red flags.

He was never a goal scoring center. He was billed as a elite defensive player with solid play making ability. That's what he is. Not sure why that's so hard to grasp. 3 goal drop, but added 17 assists to his totals.

At a younger age? They are a few months apart. You're really reaching now. As for where you said he was better than Richards, it was right in your post. You said, and I quote: "ROR steps in today and he's likely in a deadlock with Stepan as our best center." Are you quibbling on the word "likely" or what? You said it. You even bolded "today."

A "few months" apart? Draft eligibility actually means something.

Was supposed to say "second" best center, but I admit I left that part out and it did in fact say that in my post.

I can't figure out why you guys can't see this one. This is the one point where it looks the same whether you are basing your argument on the stats OR watching the games. Stat-wise: You have a player noted for being offensively limited. Drafted as a defensive specialist. Spends two years in the league as a defensive specialist. Third year in the league, he's suddenly putting up 2nd line production. He doubles his previous career high. How often do you see numbers jump like that?! Answer--you don't. Development is nearly always incremental. What changed? One thing--Landeskog got stapled to his wing.

Now watch the games to see exactly what I'm talking about. Landeskog is a bulldozer on offense. He creates chaos around the crease. The vast majority of O'Reilly's assists to Landeskog are not plays that he "created." O'Reilly would give the puck to Landeskog and Landeskog would create a goal. O'Reilly would fan on a shot, and Landeskog would find a way to put it in on a goal-mouth scrum. It happened over and over again. Landeskog figured into about half of O'Reilly's points. The fact that you refuse to see that is baffling. I hate this HFBoards attack trope, because I think it is used entirely too often, but if you just watch a few of the games from last year it would be easy to see.

3rd year in the league, and he's suddenly putting up 2nd line production. What's the more likely cause: The fact that he's playing with a rookie on his wing who is doing all the work, or the fact that he increased his PP TOI by nearly 2 minutes a night, and was getting more time at even strength? Yes, playing with better players helped considerably, but to imply that Landeskog is the lone reason for his jump in production is completely asinine.

Whatever. Agree to disagree. Tired of arguing in circles.

 

[bernmeister]

If we do trade for ROR and pay $4-5M, do you think Sather "have to" hand out a similar contract to Stepan?

If so Richards is basically gone.

Richards is gone no matter what ASA we can move him, if at all, and if not, the first day he's eligible for compliance.

Also, the above as to similar contract to Stepan raises ? of what is best approach.
Maybe get ROR to upgrade Stepan
Then move Stepan to upgrade MDZ (traded for ROR)

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

This team desperately needs a Patrick Sharp at 2C. Get me Antropov or J. Jokinen at the deadline. Both are a poor man's P. Sharp so they can likely be had for little assets.

Nash
Gaborik
Richards
Stepan
Callahan
Hagelin


That is just not a championship caliber top 6. When they're firing on all cylinders they're not championship caliber.

Nash is out right now and Richards and Stepan are 5 steps behind. Too slow of a top 6 for this league and it needs to be fixed.

 

[NYR Viper]

This team desperately needs a Patrick Sharp at 2C. Get me Antropov or J. Jokinen at the deadline. Both are a poor man's P. Sharp so they can likely be had for little assets.

Nash
Gaborik
Richards
Stepan
Callahan
Hagelin


That is just not a championship caliber top 6. When they're firing on all cylinders they're not championship caliber.

Nash is out right now and Richards and Stepan are 5 steps behind. Too slow of a top 6 for this league and it needs to be fixed.

Antropov has 5 points in 16 games. 5.

 

[Trxjw]

This team desperately needs a Patrick Sharp at 2C. Get me Antropov or J. Jokinen at the deadline. Both are a poor man's P. Sharp so they can likely be had for little assets.

Nash
Gaborik
Richards
Stepan
Callahan
Hagelin


That is just not a championship caliber top 6. When they're firing on all cylinders they're not championship caliber.

Nash is out right now and Richards and Stepan are 5 steps behind. Too slow of a top 6 for this league and it needs to be fixed.

A poor man's Patrick Sharp? More like a bankrupt man.

The irony of saying Richards and Stepan are too slow for the top-six after saying we need to get Antropov is almost painful.

 

[RGY]

This team desperately needs a Patrick Sharp at 2C. Get me Antropov or J. Jokinen at the deadline. Both are a poor man's P. Sharp so they can likely be had for little assets.

Nash
Gaborik
Richards
Stepan
Callahan
Hagelin


That is just not a championship caliber top 6. When they're firing on all cylinders they're not championship caliber.

Nash is out right now and Richards and Stepan are 5 steps behind. Too slow of a top 6 for this league and it needs to be fixed.

When have they ben firing on all cylinders this season? So how could you make that assumption that they are not a championship caliber 6? Now maybe they don't have a championship caliber 9 and they could improve there however I strongly disagree with your assessment.

Antropov has 5 points in 16 games. 5.

Agreed. No way to Antropov. He is a poor poor man's Sharp. Maybe even worse. Keep looking but Antropov and Jokinen don't cut it for me.

 

[Vitto79]

Mursak on waivers.........Claim him, send Miller or Kreider down for now........another shot in the arm to the team bringing a new body in. Guys got talent

 

[Ail]

No way to both of them.

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

Antropov has 5 points in 16 games. 5.

Ah, cue the stats.

Answer me honestly on this, please: have you seen WPGs top 6? It's terrible. If Antropov were getting top 6 minutes on this team do you honestly not seeing him putting up better stats? Our own 2C has a whopping 4 more points than Antropov. Antropov is a bigger body, protects the puck down low better than Step, and has an above average shot

=

A much bigger scoring threat than Stepan. Not to mention he was great here in his first outing and can help this Powerplay tremendously

A poor man's Patrick Sharp? More like a bankrupt man.

The irony of saying Richards and Stepan are too slow for the top-six after saying we need to get Antropov is almost painful.

Definitely. The whole point of those 2 though is to have a realistic deal that won't cost us the farm or half the roster. I could sit here all day and propose our entire team for PITs entire team like some here but because it's not realistic I'm not wasting my time

 

[NYR Viper]

Ah, cue the stats.

Answer me honestly on this, please: have you seen WPGs top 6? It's terrible. If Antropov were getting top 6 minutes on this team do you honestly not seeing him putting up better stats? Our own 2C has a whopping 4 more points than Antropov. Antropov is a bigger body, protects the puck down low better than Step, and has an above average shot

=

A much bigger scoring threat than Stepan. Not to mention he was great here in his first outing

Yes I have. He has looked bad. VERY slow. 4 points in 16 games is actually quite considerable. 4 points over 82 games, maybe not.

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

When have they ben firing on all cylinders this season? So how could you make that assumption that they are not a championship caliber 6? Now maybe they don't have a championship caliber 9 and they could improve there however I strongly disagree with your assessment.

I just feel that the last few cup winning teams had a much better top 6 than us.

Brown
Kopitar
Carter
Richards > us
Gagne
Penner

Seguin
Marchand
Lucic
Bergeron > us
Horton
Krejci

Shall I continue? I'm not even going to bother looking at CHI's top 6. Disclaimer: I'm not saying we have to have a PIT/CHI/LAK type top 6. I just think ours needs to be better. Especially the way Richards and Stepan have looked so far. Any my main point is that even if both regain form to what they played like last season at their peak (regular season for Stepan, playoffs for Richards) I still don't see it being good enough

Agreed. No way to Antropov. He is a poor poor man's Sharp. Maybe even worse. Keep looking but Antropov and Jokinen don't cut it for me.

Open to suggestions. ROR is a defensive minded center. Not interested UNLESS Richards is gone for a Getzlaf

 

[NYR Viper]

I just feel that the last few cup winning teams had a much better top 6 than us.

Brown
Kopitar
Carter
Richards > us
Gagne
Penner

Seguin
Marchand
Lucic
Bergeron > us
Horton
Krejci

Shall I continue? I'm not even going to bother looking at CHI's top 6. Disclaimer: I'm not saying we have to have a PIT/CHI/LAK type top 6. I just think ours needs to be better. Especially the way Richards and Stepan have looked so far. Any my main point is that even if both regain form to what they played like last season at their peak (regular season for Stepan, playoffs for Richards) I still don't see it being good enough



Open to suggestions. ROR is a defensive minded center. Not interested UNLESS Richards is gone for a Getzlaf

ROR is not a defensive minded center. He is a 2-way center. You list Bergeron above. He is the same.

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

ROR is not a defensive minded center. He is a 2-way center. You list Bergeron above. He is the same.

Except that Bergeron is pretty much RORs ceiling. Bergeron can be considered what ROR is projected to be if all goes well. He's not there yet

 

[NYR Viper]

Except that Bergeron is pretty much RORs ceiling. Bergeron can be considered what ROR is projected to be if all goes well. He's not there yet

Seguin barely played that season for Boston. Horton was out of the Finals with a serious concussion.

 

[Punxrocknyc19*]

Mursak on waivers.........Claim him, send Miller or Kreider down for now........another shot in the arm to the team bringing a new body in. Guys got talent

send down Bickel.... claim Mursak. i doubt anyone would claim Bickel....

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

Seguin barely played that season for Boston. Horton was out of the Finals with a serious concussion.

I don't see your point. Basically every cup winning team post lockout had a better top 6 than the current NYR and it's not even debatable. Add to the fact that Nash is injured and Stepan/Richards continue to play like dog **** and we have problems

Staal
Whitney
Brind'Amour
Cole
Stillman
Williams

Getzlaf
Perry
Kunity
Selanne
McDonald
add in Pronger who had I believe 60 pts that year? I'm not even going to touch PIT and DET as I may cry while doing so

 

[NYR Viper]

I don't see your point. Almost every cup winning team post lockout had a better top 6 than the current NYR and it's not even debatable

Add to the fact that Nash is injured and Stepan/Richards continue to play like dog **** and we have problems

The differnce between those teams and this team is those teams played well when it mattered. Boston wasn't an offensive powerhouse their Cup year. Neither was LA.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Stepan has been on of our best forwards.

Saying he's played like ******* just means you have an unhealthy bias against him.