Speculation: Trade / Roster Speculation Thread XXXII: To Smurf or not to Smurf

[Doctyl]

I hated that trade, and I still do.

I hate the St. Louis trade.

Loved the Gaborik trade, still do.

I personally would have kept the core together; Callahan, Dubinsky, Anisimov, Del Zotto, Staal, Girardi, McDonagh, Kreider, Miller, Stepan, Brassard, Zuccarello, J.Moore, Stralman, Hagelin, Boyle.

Would have put McDonagh on the right side, put Del Zotto on the left.

Added a couple pieces via trade/free agency that fit the identity, like Jamie McGinn for example.

Kept building. Kept moving forward.

Not gutting amd overhauling every summer. There is no identity now. No chemistry. Where is the passion? Guts?

Still would have fired Tortorella and brought in a guy who would have tweaked. Added emphasis on transition and forecheck.

When the time and opportunity presented its self, add that "missing piece".

So basically you're a fan if 2nd/3rd line tweeners.

Kreider-Stepan-Zucc
Dubi-AA-Cally
Hagelin-Brassard-Pouliot
4th liners

Staal-G
DZ-McD
Moore-Stralman

That roster looks worse than what we have now. You have to keep in mind that this team revolves around Lundqvist. If he's good we have a shot at beating anyone. Hank only has 4-5 more years of stellar play left at best. This team's window closes with Hanks decline. Nash and MSL will help more than a bunch of 2nd or 3rd liners, despite HFNYR's opinion. Sather is trying to win a cup. Honestly I don't think he's targeting this year. I think the MSL trade was setting up next season. I think we are going to see a classic Sather offseason. I could see him buying a lot of UFAs and shooting for a cup and letting Gorton clean up the mess he made after he's gone.

 

[BBKers]

So basically you're a fan if 2nd/3rd line tweeners.

Kreider-Stepan-Zucc
Dubi-AA-Cally
Hagelin-Brassard-Pouliot
4th liners

Staal-G
DZ-McD
Moore-Stralman

That roster looks worse than what we have now. You have to keep in mind that this team revolves around Lundqvist. If he's good we have a shot at beating anyone. Hank only has 4-5 more years of stellar play left at best. This team's window closes with Hanks decline. Nash and MSL will help more than a bunch of 2nd or 3rd liners, despite HFNYR's opinion. Sather is trying to win a cup. Honestly I don't think he's targeting this year. I think the MSL trade was setting up next season. I think we are going to see a classic Sather offseason. I could see him buying a lot of UFAs and shooting for a cup and letting Gorton clean up the mess he made after he's gone.

Spot on. Well done!!

 

[RangerBoy]

I know some have been speculating that it would be 68M, but the numbers just didn't work to get that low. Mostly fearmongering by some writer in LA that kept on saying the cdn would cause a drastic drop off.

Worst case it's 69.1 from my calculations, with it most likely being somewhere in the 69.8-70.4 if not higher.

People tend to forget that cdn teams don't account or pay salaries in cdn, and that they can always raise ticket prices to offset the difference. It's been going on for years in markets that sell out.

Dean Lombardi made that comment.

 

[BBKers]

Buyout Richards this offseason
Give Staal the "C" and sign him to a reasonable 6 year deal
Make Girardi and McD "A":s
Homegrown on ice leadership
Have Nash and MSL provide veteran leadership from the outside - iow outside of wearing the letters
Bring on board a puckmoving D (You gotta think that is D Boyle in the world of Sather)
Let Stralman walk
Resign Zucc (4 years), Byron Boy (if under 2 M), Carcillo, D Moore
Resign Kreider, J Moore and Brassard to stopgap RFA deals
Bring up cheaper homegrown kids (Fast, Miller, Lindberg, Allen/McIllraith, Bourque??) to fill out the roster or sign a vet or two on stopgap UFA deals if Brass thinks they are not ready
Interesting new guy Haggerty they signed...
Stay away from Statsny
Dangle Dorsett + Kristo at the draft if anything interesting comes up
Hope that Buch and/or The Duke become top 6 talent
If we make a trade - trade for younger NHL ready assets that are an upgrade to our existing holes
Simple

 

[Ola]

I wouldn't say it's getting worried over nothing. There are very legitimate reasons for concern. The thing, for me, is that this is what I have expected since November. I'm not as upset as I normally would be and I'm not in the sky is falling, panic mode I probably have been in in years past because I've learned my lessons. This is the NY Rangers we're talking about. I'm not surprised we're in danger of missing the playoffs; I'm surprised how many of you let them fool you again after what they showed us to start this season. So what, Nash got hot and padded his personal stats. Of course Lundqvist's game normalized, earning us wins by default, because that's what happens when Hank is in net. So what, we looked good during the most meaningless stretch of the season? We never addressed any of the problems or issues though. Did everyone think they just magically went away? Or did you actually start to believe that maybe we actually did have enough scoring? Maybe we didn't actually need to fill that offensive hole on the blue line? Maybe the gaping holes in our roster were just lies that jaded fans made up and didn't need to be addressed? Did you really let the biggest, softest, most heartless mercenary of a Ranger I can remember trick you into thinking he was actually a big game player when he ramped his game up just in time for the Olympics, only to promptly disappear again once he had his gold medal around his neck? I mean, does anyone REALLY think this is a competitive roster?

Don't get me wrong, I've watched 90% of the games this season, but I have never once thought "maybe we can actually make a run". I watch the games because I love hockey, and for the time being, I scout the players we've got, assess the things we need to change and the holes we need to fill and I dream about the future. I've never had hope for this season. I just don't see how you could without completely kidding yourself. This team is poorly assembled. We add pieces that do not make sense and there is no semblance of a plan or a destination. I honestly don't even know if I believe Sather cares about winning a Cup; you could easily sell me on the notion that he gets a percentage of playoff revenue in his contract and all he cares about is two guaranteed home games in the post season. It's all but certain that's all Dolan wants.

Let's take the Callahan/St. Louis scenario. I haven't complained about the trade for a couple of reasons. First, I like Marty St. Louis and second, I really, really did not want us to give Callahan the contract that was being discussed. By moving Callahan for MSL we dodged that bullet, but if you had asked me if I had any interest in trading our 1st and 2nd for a 38 year old, win now pick up I'd have had no hesitation in answering "**** no". Add in the fact that we could have dealt Callahan himself for a 1st, a young player or, at least, a 2nd and you're basically choosing a 38 year old who indicates we're in a win now mind state that we CLEARLY shouldn't be in over our 1st, our 2nd and an additional 1st or young player. To me, there is no clearer proof in the world that this organization has no clue what they're doing and no plan at all. We simply can't compete with the top teams in the league. Adding MSL doesn't change that. Now, I would have been furious had they done this but, for arguments sake, had they added MSL and then followed it up with a couple more win now moves to really bolster the roster and try to make a run (which still would have been futile and a waste of assets), at least it would indicate that they have a plan to actually go for it. But they didn't load up to go for it AND they didn't use Callahan to add a pick/young player and try to set up our future. They just added one 38 year old player, who came at a premium we had no business paying, but didn't make the team any more competitive this year, or any better equipped for the future. No plan. No direction. Nothing.

The kind of process that led to the above is the same process that led us to where we are right now. An identity-less, patch work, unlikable, difficult to invest in roster that doesn't have a particular style or strength, doesn't play for one another, doesn't bring a respectable effort and doesn't have a chance at winning, nor a very bright future. Our prospect pool is not good. Our drafting is not great. Our current roster is a mish mosh of no heart players, only some of whom can contribute. Why would you let this team fool you into thinking they were legit at any point during this season? Going in with guys like Pouliot (who has actually surprised me and been much better than he usually is, everywhere else he's been) and Pyatt to start this season, I knew our roster wasn't competitive. The previous 4 or 5 years were as good as it's going to get any time soon for us Rangers fans, I fear. We've been trending downward since our peak in the ECF and I don't see any prospect in the system who can make an impact to change that, any free agent that would actually right this ship, any draft picks that we can use to get help or any plan from management to address any of it. I like MSL just fine - I've always been a fan - but bringing him in at the expense of our 1st and 2nd when we could have turned Cally into additiional young assets just tells me that I shouldn't get my hopes up any time soon. Turning Cally into a late 1st and then packaging our 1st, the other 1st, a player like Brassard and a prospect like Miller to acquire a genuine impact player under 25 (like Seguin) is the only kind of trade we should be making where first rounders are even considered available. Trading Cally, our 1st and a 2nd for a 38 year old tells you everything you ever needed to know. This team is hopeless. Being a Rangers fan is a self inflicted torture and the less you get your hopes up and let them trick you, the less disappointing the experience.

I agree with everything but the bolded part.

-Yes we can miss the POs.

-Yes we are poorly assembled.

-I agree about MSLs impact, and so forth.

But, all this applies for all teams in the East cept for Boston and Pittsburgh, and Boston and Pittsburgh aren't super human either.

I think your thinking is valid in relation to like a question of "should we give up a bunch of 1st rounders to improve our chances?" You can apply your thinking and come to the conclusion that, no we aren't good enough to take that bet.

But, can we make a run? Yeah, I still think so despite loosing 5 of last 7 and before and after getting MSL. I also think we could miss the POs, but that doesn't rule out us making a run for it.

Pittsburgh could end up playing Philly, nobody who has seen those two teams battle can for sure say that Pittsburgh is winning that series. Boston has struggled against Detroit this year, and could face a Detroit with a healthy Zetterberg and Datsyuk back, all the while other players has stepped up while they have been out. Boston is a bit tired after playing in mid-june. There is a reason for why no team has repeated after the 05' lockout (while Det-Pitt admittedly played the finals two stragiht years), it takes your toll to play in June. Detroit, or any other team, can disturb Boston. Before we know it, we beat Washington in round 1 and we are left in the PO's race side to side with Philly, Detroit and like Tampa.

We have a young and durable team with potentially great POs, of course we could make a run. I also think we could loose against just about any team, but that is antoher issue.

 

[Ola]

I know some have been speculating that it would be 68M, but the numbers just didn't work to get that low. Mostly fearmongering by some writer in LA that kept on saying the cdn would cause a drastic drop off.

Worst case it's 69.1 from my calculations, with it most likely being somewhere in the 69.8-70.4 if not higher.

People tend to forget that cdn teams don't account or pay salaries in cdn, and that they can always raise ticket prices to offset the difference. It's been going on for years in markets that sell out.

You get the answer on the question you ask.

If Lombardi is planning ahead, and don't want to find himself in an impossible position, and asks the numbers guy how far the cap could fall from the 71m prediction -- he is going to get told that nobody can predict that number for sure. Then if he insist, he will get a half-arsed estimate taking into account a CDN nose dive...

I did some rough calculations on 71.5m minus CDN impact, and I got to 69.5 as some kind of half-safe estimate (please still note that the 1/3 of HRR comes from Canada statement was made before Winnipeg moving north of the border so these numbers are a bit rough and old). The math is pretty easy.

To put it like this, I would be very suprised if the cap fell all the way down to 68m even, that just seem very low.

 

[Samuel Culper III]

I agree with everything but the bolded part.

-Yes we can miss the POs.

-Yes we are poorly assembled.

-I agree about MSLs impact, and so forth.

But, all this applies for all teams in the East cept for Boston and Pittsburgh, and Boston and Pittsburgh aren't super human either.

I think your thinking is valid in relation to like a question of "should we give up a bunch of 1st rounders to improve our chances?" You can apply your thinking and come to the conclusion that, no we aren't good enough to take that bet.

But, can we make a run? Yeah, I still think so despite loosing 5 of last 7 and before and after getting MSL. I also think we could miss the POs, but that doesn't rule out us making a run for it.

Pittsburgh could end up playing Philly, nobody who has seen those two teams battle can for sure say that Pittsburgh is winning that series. Boston has struggled against Detroit this year, and could face a Detroit with a healthy Zetterberg and Datsyuk back, all the while other players has stepped up while they have been out. Boston is a bit tired after playing in mid-june. There is a reason for why no team has repeated after the 05' lockout (while Det-Pitt admittedly played the finals two stragiht years), it takes your toll to play in June. Detroit, or any other team, can disturb Boston. Before we know it, we beat Washington in round 1 and we are left in the PO's race side to side with Philly, Detroit and like Tampa.

We have a young and durable team with potentially great POs, of course we could make a run. I also think we could loose against just about any team, but that is antoher issue.

I don't disagree that the scenario you described could come to pass but, one, I don't think high priced, win now moves can be justified on the theory that teams we simply can't beat COULD get unfavorable first round matchups (the kind of disregard for the future that a move like the MSL trade displays should only be justifiable when the strength of your own roster and chances justifies it, not when everyone else being misfortunate might create the perfect storm for you) and, two, should everything fall into place as you described, we would be dismantled by any number of hungry western teams that managed to reach the finals and face us. We're simply a pretender no matter how you slice it.

Now, I understand what you meant when you said my thoughts could be applied to all the teams in the east after Boston and Pittsburgh, but that's not actually true at all. The fact that none of them are true contenders, sure. But the complete lack of a plan, lack of direction, lack of organizational depth and quality prospects to take them to a better future position isn't applicable. Toronto has a younger team with better prospects and a much higher quantity, which gives them flexibility to move young assets when the time is right. Tampa is loaded with rookies and young players contributing and has insanely good prospects like Drouin and Connolly not even on the big club yet. They're young and poised for the future, with a mega star at the helm and they just, albeit grudgingly, traded a 38 year old for a rental,an 1st and a 2nd. This is a team with a future. Detroit hasn't missed the playoffs in 20 years. You'd forgive them for finally starting to fade, and it is a down year for them, but despite Zetterberg, Datysuk and Kronwall all getting on in years, they have a phenomenal prospect pool with Nyquist, Tatar, Mantha, Sproul, Oullette, Jurco, Sheahan and Mrazek in net. Columbus also has an extremely bright future with a deep prospect pool and young team. Montreal, I despise, but has a stud prospect in Galchenyuk and a strong prospect pool and young guys like Price and Subban. Even the Isles have a young star and deep prospect pool; they just have equally poor management. We are the only team with no real future and no plan at all. We're not really win now, because we're not good enough, but we're not building for any future either. It's just about home playoff revenue and jersey sales at this point, IMO.

 

[RangerBoy]

You guys are acting like $68M is really $60M. The NHL(Bill Daly) said the cap drop would be $1M-2M from the $71M. Its a very healthy increase from current upper limit using the 50/50 split. That is a 6% increase.

 

[Punxrocknyc19*]

is their anyway to trade Rick Nash in a deal for E.Kane???




at least when Kane is not scoring, he at least is hitting and is a noticeable and more involved in the game, where as Nash whenever he is not scoring and not trying to deke 3 players at a time, he is never heard from during the game....

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

is their anyway to trade Rick Nash in a deal for E.Kane???




at least when Kane is not scoring, he at least is hitting and is a noticeable and more involved in the game, where as Nash whenever he is not scoring and not trying to deke 3 players at a time, he is never heard from during the game....

Except Nash actually has the capability of scoring at a ppg pace and Kane doesn't.... talk about a drop off in offensive output potential.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Except Nash actually has the capability of scoring at a ppg pace and Kane doesn't.... talk about a drop off in offensive output potential.

I don't know if that's fair. I don't know if I ever saw Kane as ppg capable, but I could also see him and New York as a great fit. (not that I'm advocating a trade) He feeds off the excitement, gets really into games, and he hasn't been bad this season that I've seen. Injuries would be my main worry but the kid is still electric.

 

[Punxrocknyc19*]

Except Nash actually has the capability of scoring at a ppg pace and Kane doesn't.... talk about a drop off in offensive output potential.

Kane is also a more complete player and is willing to go into the dirty areas unlike Rick Nash and can play wing and center...


of course Rangers would need more than Kane if they trade Nash....

 

[Punxrocknyc19*]

I don't know if that's fair. I don't know if I ever saw Kane as ppg capable, but I could also see him and New York as a great fit. (not that I'm advocating a trade) He feeds off the excitement, gets really into games, and he hasn't been bad this season that I've seen. Injuries would be my main worry but the kid is still electric.

exactly Kane has the personality to fit in NY, Nash seems to be too mellow and no emotion even during a bad game.. like what is wrong with Nash's personality


id take Kane over Nash any day...

 

[Samuel Culper III]

Except Nash actually has the capability of scoring at a ppg pace and Kane doesn't.... talk about a drop off in offensive output potential.

Except Nash doesn't score at PPG and rarely ever has any time in his career. I don't really care one lick what he's capable of. I care what he does, and at 7.8M and 29 years old, I honestly think it's only another year or two before Kane's production catches up and surpasses Nash, with Kane being the faster, younger, grittier, better player. I would move Nash for Kane 100 out of 100 times. If Rick Nash never played another game as a Ranger I really wouldn't care.

 

[I Eat Crow]

Some interesting conversation going on here.

I really think that the MSL trade is a sign that we're going for it this year and next. Lundqvist turned 32 a few days ago. The end of his prime years are quickly approaching. I don't blame Sather one bit for trying to extend this team's window while Lundqvist is still playing at the top of his game.

However, I'm in the camp that thinks that this is Sather's last season as GM. He'll remain President, but will hand the reigns to Gorton. If I'm wrong (I really hope not), I can see a UFA spending spree as has been brought up just a few posts ago. I can see both Vanek and Dan Boyle Rangers come this July. The first one makes more sense than the second one, but that's what I can envision.

To fit both, Richards or Brassard are goners. If Gorton's at the helm, Richards will get bought out as he should. If Sather's still running the show, prepare for the worst. I already think Richards will still be a Ranger on opening night next season.

 

[SupersonicMonkey*]

So basically you're a fan if 2nd/3rd line tweeners.

Kreider-Stepan-Zucc
Dubi-AA-Cally
Hagelin-Brassard-Pouliot
4th liners

Staal-G
DZ-McD
Moore-Stralman

That roster looks worse than what we have now. You have to keep in mind that this team revolves around Lundqvist. If he's good we have a shot at beating anyone. Hank only has 4-5 more years of stellar play left at best. This team's window closes with Hanks decline. Nash and MSL will help more than a bunch of 2nd or 3rd liners, despite HFNYR's opinion. Sather is trying to win a cup. Honestly I don't think he's targeting this year. I think the MSL trade was setting up next season. I think we are going to see a classic Sather offseason. I could see him buying a lot of UFAs and shooting for a cup and letting Gorton clean up the mess he made after he's gone.

"3rd liners".

"Setting us up for next season"

"Henrik's windoe closing"

"St. Louis is the missing piece"

"Nash is the missing piece"

"Richards is the missing piece"

"Gomez...Drury...Redden...Shanahan...Sykora...Jagr...Holik...Lindros...Fluery..."

Excuse me if im not dilusional and don't drink the coolaid. There is no shortcut to building a team. Therr is no quick fix for this garbage roster of disinterested mercs.

"Next year is the year! Because this year was supposed to be but isn't!"

Round and round we go.

 

[Punxrocknyc19*]

Except Nash doesn't score at PPG and rarely ever has any time in his career. I don't really care one lick what he's capable of. I care what he does, and at 7.8M and 29 years old, I honestly think it's only another year or two before Kane's production catches up and surpasses Nash, with Kane being the faster, younger, grittier, better player. I would move Nash for Kane 100 out of 100 times. If Rick Nash never played another game as a Ranger I really wouldn't care.

i would not be as mad if Sather dealt Dubinsky Anisimov for Kane.. Kane is younger faster basically i agree with everything you said. he always sticks up for teammates and is more of a leader than Nash and Kane is also a bit selfish on the ice. Rangers need that mentality....

 

[Doctyl]

i would not be as mad if Sather dealt Dubinsky Anisimov for Kane.. Kane is younger faster basically i agree with everything you said. he always sticks up for teammates and is more of a leader than Nash and Kane is also a bit selfish on the ice. Rangers need that mentality....

Kane is selfish, what a guy.

Nash is selfish, get his ****ing ass out of here.

I don't understand you guys

 

[Punxrocknyc19*]

Kane is selfish, what a guy.

Nash is selfish, get his ****ing ass out of here.

I don't understand you guys

Nash is not selfish.. he just floats more than he shout. Kane has that shoot the puck mentality, Rangers need more selfish players..


too much passing when the shot is available. Nash and the rest of the team, always trying to look for the pretty play... too many nice guys on this team that dont show any kind of emotion when they play like crap. Nash takes no responsibility at all i can see why he was the captain on the Jackets, he was their only option

 

[Samuel Culper III]

Kane is selfish, what a guy.

Nash is selfish, get his ****ing ass out of here.

I don't understand you guys

Nash isn't selfish. He doesn't know HOW to use his teammates, but the only way in which he's selfish is that he thinks it's okay to make 8M a year and only show up 30% of the time. Kane, on the other hand, does know how to use his teammates but he's driven and he WANTS to work hard to be THE GUY every night. He may not be there in his development yet but he has elite tools and brings it every game. He also hasn't had much for linemates until Scheifele started breaking out this year. Kane is closer to Lucic than Nash, but he skates like the wind and isn't as agitating.

 

[Riverdale]

Some interesting conversation going on here.

I really think that the MSL trade is a sign that we're going for it this year and next. Lundqvist turned 32 a few days ago. The end of his prime years are quickly approaching. I don't blame Sather one bit for trying to extend this team's window while Lundqvist is still playing at the top of his game.

However, I'm in the camp that thinks that this is Sather's last season as GM. He'll remain President, but will hand the reigns to Gorton. If I'm wrong (I really hope not), I can see a UFA spending spree as has been brought up just a few posts ago. I can see both Vanek and Dan Boyle Rangers come this July. The first one makes more sense than the second one, but that's what I can envision.

To fit both, Richards or Brassard are goners. If Gorton's at the helm, Richards will get bought out as he should. If Sather's still running the show, prepare for the worst. I already think Richards will still be a Ranger on opening night next season.

Bolded: Sorry, I don't see it. I can see Sather here for at LEAST 3-5 more years. I have no evidence to point to. Let's just say that I am not going to get my hopes up for him leaving any time soon.

 

[Doctyl]

"3rd liners".

"Setting us up for next season"

"Henrik's windoe closing"

"St. Louis is the missing piece"

"Nash is the missing piece"

"Richards is the missing piece"

"Gomez...Drury...Redden...Shanahan...Sykora...Jagr...Holik...Lindros...Fluery..."

Excuse me if im not dilusional and don't drink the coolaid. There is no shortcut to building a team. Therr is no quick fix for this garbage roster of disinterested mercs.

"Next year is the year! Because this year was supposed to be but isn't!"

Round and round we go.

Every player we traded was a 2nd/3rd liner. Nash and MSL are both legitimate 1st liners. I'm not saying I agree with Sather, I am speculating that he is trying to win right now and that is the logic behind all of these trades and signings. And henriks window is closing along with our window for a cup.

 

[Ola]

Serge- Drouin is a good prospect, but he is actually not even playing for Tampa yet. Ie I have a bit of a hard time understanding why Drouin improves Tampas PO chances...

Also, I also wrote that we aren't good enough now to make trades where we give up te future for very short term gains. You don't have to argue against me there...

 

[Punxrocknyc19*]

Nash isn't selfish. He doesn't know HOW to use his teammates, but the only way in which he's selfish is that he thinks it's okay to make 8M a year and only show up 30% of the time. Kane, on the other hand, does know how to use his teammates but he's driven and he WANTS to work hard to be THE GUY every night. He may not be there in his development yet but he has elite tools and brings it every game. He also hasn't had much for linemates until Scheifele started breaking out this year. Kane is closer to Lucic than Nash, but he skates like the wind and isn't as agitating.

and Kane will actually stick up for teammates, something Nash never does..... David Backes does the same thing.. id take David Backes over Rick Nash any day as well.

 

[Samuel Culper III]

Serge- Drouin is a good prospect, but he is actually not even playing for Tampa yet. Ie I have a bit of a hard time understanding why Drouin improves Tampas PO chances...

Also, I also wrote that we aren't good enough now to make trades where we give up te future for very short term gains. You don't have to argue against me there...

You mean me? Or someone else? I mentioned that Drouin isn't playing for them; I was indicating that all of these other teams have much stronger futures already lined up, that they're management has been actively planning for while we are just as likely or unlikely to make a run in the east yet don't have any strong future prospects or discernible plan or direction from our management. The rest we agreed on anyways. If not me, I apologize.