Trade and Free Agency Discussion Thread - Don't Expect More Augmenting
- Thread starter BertCorbeau
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LeafChief
Matthew Knies Enthusiast
The Podium
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justashadowof
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2020
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No European contract for Sparks? I could see him flourishing over there. He may not have given up his NHL dream just yet.
probably very few guaranteed contract options. Orlando is one of the few ECHL teams with some money to spend.
Minor, but I think I've spotted an opportunity for a minor trade:
Calle Rosen for a Top 6 AHL RW.
Warsofsky was brought in (productive leader), Marincin could end up in the AHL, Kivihalme re-upped for two-years as a mature prospect, Sandin/Liljegren may go back and forth and Hollowell/Duszak/Rubins/Kral/Hoefenmayer/McCourt/Sapego vying for playing time.
Do they really need three "vets" in Warsofsky/Marincin/Rosen with all of those young players, a few of whom are top AHL D?
On RW, the Marlies will have Anderson or Malgin, and then a ton of AHL deals.
Maybe @SeaOfBlue could put some potential names out there for this minor swap?
Calle Rosen for a Top 6 AHL RW.
Warsofsky was brought in (productive leader), Marincin could end up in the AHL, Kivihalme re-upped for two-years as a mature prospect, Sandin/Liljegren may go back and forth and Hollowell/Duszak/Rubins/Kral/Hoefenmayer/McCourt/Sapego vying for playing time.
Do they really need three "vets" in Warsofsky/Marincin/Rosen with all of those young players, a few of whom are top AHL D?
On RW, the Marlies will have Anderson or Malgin, and then a ton of AHL deals.
Maybe @SeaOfBlue could put some potential names out there for this minor swap?
Fogelhund
Registered User
- Sep 15, 2007
- 24,578
- 29,784
I like the improvements that the team has made this year, but I feel like we are not quite there. I know that I've given up a ton here, and some people aren't going to be happy with this, which I'm ok with. To me, this is a roster that you can really compete with, and it works with the Cap. It rounds out our D, gives us a bit more there, than we've got now, and a good partner for Rielly, while I think Brodie and Muzzin would also make a good partnership. Steel is a decent up and coming C, and would replace Kerfoot in the lineup adequately, probably be a better player long-term.
It's an overpayment, to get the assets we need, and it probably pushes this team to being very competitive.
So, to Anaheim
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It's an overpayment, to get the assets we need, and it probably pushes this team to being very competitive.
So, to Anaheim
- Holl, Justin
- Kerfoot, Alexander
- Liljegren, Timothy
- 2021 1st round pick (TOR)
- Abramov
- Manson
- Steel
| SIZE | SALARY CAP | CAP HIT | OVERAGES
| BONUSES | CAP SPACE |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 22 | $81,500,000 | $81,118,491 | $0 | $0 | $381,509 |
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
| Delete Signed Player | Buyout | Add to Trade |
| Left Wing | Centre | Right Wing |
|---|---|---|
Hyman, Zach $2,250,000 LW, RW M-NTC UFA - 1 |
Matthews, Auston $11,634,000 C UFA - 4 |
Marner, Mitchell $10,893,000 RW UFA - 5 |
|
Mikheyev, Ilya $1,645,000 LW, RW UFA - 2 |
Tavares, John $11,000,000 C NMC UFA - 5 |
Nylander, William $6,962,366 RW, LW UFA - 4 |
|
Vesey, Jimmy $900,000 LW, RW UFA - 1 | 
Steel, Sam $863,333 C RFA - 1 |
Simmonds, Wayne $1,500,000 RW, LW NTC UFA - 1 |
|
Robertson, Nicholas $821,667 LW RFA - 3 |
Spezza, Jason $700,000 C, RW UFA - 1 |
Boyd, Travis $700,000 C, RW UFA - 1 |
|
Thornton, Joe $700,000 C NMC UFA - 1 | ||
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
| Left Defense | Right Defense | Goaltender |
|---|---|---|
|
Muzzin, Jake $5,625,000 LD NMC UFA - 4 |
Brodie, TJ $5,000,000 RD NMC UFA - 4 |
Andersen, Frederik $5,000,000 G M-NTC UFA - 1 |
|
Rielly, Morgan $5,000,000 LD M-NTC UFA - 2 |
Manson, Josh $4,100,000 RD M-NTC UFA - 2 |
Campbell, Jack $1,650,000 G UFA - 2 |
|
Dermott, Travis $874,125 LD RFA - 1 |
Bogosian, Zach $1,000,000 RD NTC UFA - 1 | |
|
Lehtonen, Mikko $925,000 LD UFA - 1 |
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
stickty111
Registered User
- Jan 23, 2017
- 27,313
- 34,319
Thats outragiously bad for the Leafs. In fact it's a deal Dubas should be fired if he signed it. I am going to repeat this but Manson has had one good season and the rest has been average at best.I like the improvements that the team has made this year, but I feel like we are not quite there. I know that I've given up a ton here, and some people aren't going to be happy with this, which I'm ok with. To me, this is a roster that you can really compete with, and it works with the Cap. It rounds out our D, gives us a bit more there, than we've got now, and a good partner for Rielly, while I think Brodie and Muzzin would also make a good partnership. Steel is a decent up and coming C, and would replace Kerfoot in the lineup adequately, probably be a better player long-term.
It's an overpayment, to get the assets we need, and it probably pushes this team to being very competitive.
So, to Anaheim
To Leafs
- Holl, Justin
- Kerfoot, Alexander
- Liljegren, Timothy
- 2021 1st round pick (TOR)
- Abramov
- Manson
- Steel
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
SIZE SALARY CAP CAP HIT OVERAGES BONUSES CAP SPACE 22 $81,500,000 $81,118,491 $0 $0 $381,509
[TBODY] [/TBODY]Roster[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Delete Signed Player Buyout Add to Trade
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Left Wing Centre Right Wing
Hyman, Zach
$2,250,000
LW, RW
M-NTC
UFA - 1
Matthews, Auston
$11,634,000
C
UFA - 4
Marner, Mitchell
$10,893,000
RW
UFA - 5
Mikheyev, Ilya
$1,645,000
LW, RW
UFA - 2
Tavares, John
$11,000,000
C
NMC
UFA - 5
Nylander, William
$6,962,366
RW, LW
UFA - 4
Vesey, Jimmy
$900,000
LW, RW
UFA - 1
Steel, Sam
$863,333
C
RFA - 1
Simmonds, Wayne
$1,500,000
RW, LW
NTC
UFA - 1
Robertson, Nicholas
$821,667
LW
RFA - 3
Spezza, Jason
$700,000
C, RW
UFA - 1
Boyd, Travis
$700,000
C, RW
UFA - 1
Thornton, Joe
$700,000
C
NMC
UFA - 1
[TBODY] [/TBODY][TBODY] [/TBODY]
Left Defense Right Defense Goaltender
Muzzin, Jake
$5,625,000
LD
NMC
UFA - 4
Brodie, TJ
$5,000,000
RD
NMC
UFA - 4
Andersen, Frederik
$5,000,000
G
M-NTC
UFA - 1
Rielly, Morgan
$5,000,000
LD
M-NTC
UFA - 2
Manson, Josh
$4,100,000
RD
M-NTC
UFA - 2
Campbell, Jack
$1,650,000
G
UFA - 2
Dermott, Travis
$874,125
LD
RFA - 1
Bogosian, Zach
$1,000,000
RD
NTC
UFA - 1
Lehtonen, Mikko
$925,000
LD
UFA - 1
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Giving up Liljegren alone is an overpayment for Manson, and then your adding in these pieces and Steel coming back is nowhere near enough.
The deal is pretty much.
Toronto trades
#4-5 d man
1st
Very good prospect
Middle six player
B prospect
For
#4 d man
Good prospect.
I might consider for Lindholm but not this one.
Yep. Manson is not even close to Muzzin when he was traded to the Leafs. If there is a trade for Manson, it will be less than the Muzzin package.
Fogelhund
Registered User
- Sep 15, 2007
- 24,578
- 29,784
I mean really? An ok Defensive prospect, that has 11 games in the NHL, and one point, is an overpayment for an established defender of that quality. I think you are massively overvaluing Liljegren here.
Typically, we overvalue our prospect, and want it to be at best, a slight win for us. You aren't prying away players, other teams have in their plans, without an overpayment of some type. The only way you get a "fair" trade, is if they are shopping them, which Ducks don't appear to, and love the guy. They value what he brings to the table. I appreciate people say one good season, due to him putting up points, but it's the other qualities we want, not the points.
Manson with Rielly, is a better version of Hainsey by far, and gives us two high quality D pairings, which one could argue, would be in an argument for top 4 D in the league.
At some point, you just pay the price, to have the BEST team... not an ok one, or a good one, but the BEST one you could ice. We give up nothing that impacts our team now, and take a good step forward on D... I know it's an overpayment, but to have a truly competitive, best in league team and D... I'd do it.
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stickty111
Registered User
- Jan 23, 2017
- 27,313
- 34,319
Liljegren is not an okay defensive prospect. Everything he has done suggests a solid top 4 defenseman and he is projected to be one. Lilly is way better then an okay prospect. All this is showing is people are severly undervaluing him again.
Whose judging Manson on points? I certainly am not. His play has been just average aside from one season. We need known qualities not someone we think fits. Seems like overvaluing Manson on perception then reality.
You don't pay the price by making a bad deal. There is a difference between paying up which means getting a good piece back, and paying up just because we should. Manson is not that player.
Dubas is out the door if he agreed to it.
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Yea calling Liljegren an okay prospect with 1 point in 11 NHL games shows that you have no idea what his actual value is.
He also put up a 20 year old season comparable to Shea Theodore (0.75 PPG to Theodore's 0.76 PPG) with a more well rounded defensive game and looked way better than higher ranked prospects like Bouchard did in the AHL last year.
Would I give that up for another Muzzin level impact player or better? Maybe. For Manson? Absolutely not.
stickty111
Registered User
- Jan 23, 2017
- 27,313
- 34,319
It's sad Lilly is still viewed as just a meh prospect for whatever reason. The guy is an elite AHL 2 way d man stud at 20-21. Is that not enough to suggest he is projecting to be very good?
SeaOfBlue
The Passion That Unites Us All
- Aug 1, 2013
- 35,591
- 16,777
I think the Leafs keep the defensive depth, especially if there are going to be expanded rosters this year. At this point, they are probably not making many plans to build that team all that much and will likely just keep the guys who are currently loaned where they are (except Thornton, Kossila, and maybe Malgin). I think they use this AHL season as an opportunity to get as many AHL contracts in the lineup as possible, and then just loan a few guys who won't have much playing time to whichever ECHL team will take them.
LW Kenny Agostino – C Travis Boyd – RW Gordie Green
LW Nic Petan – C Adam Brooks – RW Joey Anderson
LW Rourke Chartier – C Kalle Kossila – RW Justin Brazeau
LW Hudson Elynuik – C Tyler Gaudet - RW Jeremy McKenna
LW Bobby McMann - C Colt Conrad - RW Scott Pooley
LW Rich Clune/RW Scott Sabourin
LD Rasmus Sandin – RD Timothy Liljegren
LD David Warsofsky – RD Calle Rosen
LD Teemu Kivihalme – RD Joseph Duszak
LD Noel Hoefenmayer – RD Sergei Sapego
LD Riley McCourt
G Joseph Woll – G Michael Hutchinson
G Ian Scott
Marincin and Dell are assumed to be in the NHL for the entire season, with Rubins, Hollowell, Kral, SDA, Korshkov, etc. staying in Europe. Loan out one of the young defenders and Scott to the ECHL, as well as one of Green or McKenna if Malgin is in the AHL or if the Leafs sign a guy like Perlini for the Marlies. The non-loaned guys can continue just focusing on skill and strength development, which is likely what they've been doing for the past 9 months anyways. For most of them, that is probably more beneficial than playing games right now.
Clearly not. He didn't look good in limited minutes in 11 games as a 20 year old so he sucks.
Has 3 of the best seasons ever for a defensemen his age at the AHL level (his age 19 season was the least impressive despite still being comparable to Brent Burns and Ryan Suter) yet some reason he doesn't get the recognition on prospect boards that kids out of the CHL do.
Heck even if you compare him to the AHL defensemen of the year in Jake Bean, he wasn't far off the season he had despite being a year younger (0.81 PPG for Bean vs 0.75 PPG for Lily with less PP time).
On one hand, Leafsnation wants a strong stay at home Dman who can chip in some offence and play RD, but at the same time undervalue TL bc he is not lighting up AHL in scoring.
If the Leafs actually have a steady vet Dman in 3rd pairing instead of Dermott, TL would be playing in the NHL already.
Just think it is wrong to have another rookie playing with Dermott. If Bogo wins the 3rd pairing job, it will do wonders for Dermott.
stickty111
Registered User
- Jan 23, 2017
- 27,313
- 34,319
It's why you shouldn't look at advanced numbers in a small sample size especially in the NHL. He has grown every year and now become a shutdown d man at that level while providing offense.
Good point on Bean. If Lilly played the whole season there, he would certainly be in the conversation for the award.
That trade with Anaheim is horribad. Leafs giving up way too much, and Steel (who hasn't really proven an ability to hold a 3C spot on a contender) only has one year left on his ELC. Also we'd pay all that just to lose Manson in the expansion draft... Our defense is just fine as is, and if there are issues, I'd rather fix them at the deadline than massively overpay for Manson...
Wait to see how Columbus does and maybe try add Savard @50% retention at the deadline if Columbus is doing poor, the leafs doing well and Lehtonen isn't playing in the top 4. He would only have a prorated hap hit of like 1.5 million depending on when you traded for him. Really think a Muzzin/Savard pairing would be good.
stickty111
Registered User
- Jan 23, 2017
- 27,313
- 34,319
Yup. This is pretty much all accurate. Thankfully Dubas won't make trades like that.
I like the improvements that the team has made this year, but I feel like we are not quite there. I know that I've given up a ton here, and some people aren't going to be happy with this, which I'm ok with. To me, this is a roster that you can really compete with, and it works with the Cap. It rounds out our D, gives us a bit more there, than we've got now, and a good partner for Rielly, while I think Brodie and Muzzin would also make a good partnership. Steel is a decent up and coming C, and would replace Kerfoot in the lineup adequately, probably be a better player long-term.
It's an overpayment, to get the assets we need, and it probably pushes this team to being very competitive.
So, to Anaheim
To Leafs
- Holl, Justin
- Kerfoot, Alexander
- Liljegren, Timothy
- 2021 1st round pick (TOR)
- Abramov
- Manson
- Steel
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
SIZE SALARY CAP CAP HIT OVERAGES BONUSES CAP SPACE 22 $81,500,000 $81,118,491 $0 $0 $381,509
[TBODY] [/TBODY]Roster[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Delete Signed Player Buyout Add to Trade
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Left Wing Centre Right Wing
Hyman, Zach
$2,250,000
LW, RW
M-NTC
UFA - 1
Matthews, Auston
$11,634,000
C
UFA - 4
Marner, Mitchell
$10,893,000
RW
UFA - 5
Mikheyev, Ilya
$1,645,000
LW, RW
UFA - 2
Tavares, John
$11,000,000
C
NMC
UFA - 5
Nylander, William
$6,962,366
RW, LW
UFA - 4
Vesey, Jimmy
$900,000
LW, RW
UFA - 1
Steel, Sam
$863,333
C
RFA - 1
Simmonds, Wayne
$1,500,000
RW, LW
NTC
UFA - 1
Robertson, Nicholas
$821,667
LW
RFA - 3
Spezza, Jason
$700,000
C, RW
UFA - 1
Boyd, Travis
$700,000
C, RW
UFA - 1
Thornton, Joe
$700,000
C
NMC
UFA - 1
[TBODY] [/TBODY][TBODY] [/TBODY]
Left Defense Right Defense Goaltender
Muzzin, Jake
$5,625,000
LD
NMC
UFA - 4
Brodie, TJ
$5,000,000
RD
NMC
UFA - 4
Andersen, Frederik
$5,000,000
G
M-NTC
UFA - 1
Rielly, Morgan
$5,000,000
LD
M-NTC
UFA - 2
Manson, Josh
$4,100,000
RD
M-NTC
UFA - 2
Campbell, Jack
$1,650,000
G
UFA - 2
Dermott, Travis
$874,125
LD
RFA - 1
Bogosian, Zach
$1,000,000
RD
NTC
UFA - 1
Lehtonen, Mikko
$925,000
LD
UFA - 1
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
We can't afford a first rounder. Sorry.
justashadowof
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2020
- 4,025
- 4,230
Not that I put all of my eggs in the advanced stats basket by any means but Liljegren had the worst Corsi by a Leafs' defender with 10 or more games since 2014-15. He did not have a good audition. This doesn't eliminate him from future growth.
It really depended on who he was playing with. When he played with another decent left D in Sandin/Muzzin/Dermott he was fine.
When he played with another RHD or Marincin his Corsi tanked. I believe he was only 16% with Holl, 0% with Ceci, and 23% with Barrie.
You need to be able to insulate young defensemen (like we did with Rielly) but because of the injuries to all the LD we really couldn't do that last year.
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