Torts Reform: Coaching Discussion Thread III

[NotWendell]

Dumb because what? You think it's possible that they can play even worse? I'm not sure if that is possible.

In other words, when it is this bad, what do you have to lose?

Worse with a coach at the end of his tenure is definitely worse than worse with a coach at the start of his/her tenure.

 

[LoneFunyan]

We don't know, at this point

• if Domi has forgotten how to play hockey or is being misused, or something in between
• if Jones has an issue or is just feeling stiffled
• if Laine is a thing
• if Roslovic is an acceptable 2C, good 3C, acceptable 3C,...
• if Grigorenko has anything to offer anywhere, ever
• etc.

If we leave Torts around for the season, we go into next year without any sense of whether the team was underperforming due to coach/system fatigue etc. It might also help to signal to Jones, Werekski and others who may be souring on the org that we're committed to a new direction.

Beyond Torts, I'm wondering how anyone justifies keeping Jarmo around. Top to bottom, it feels like we haven't been in a position this bad since mid-MacLean era.

• The on-ice product is as bad as it was back then, and kind of feels worse because we know there's more talent than what's shown on the ice
• The cupboard is devoid of any high-end talent or even imminent "pretty good" talent. The three Russian saviors are seasons away and while they may be good, aren't likely to be franchise type players.
• We have few draft picks for 2021 and 2022. I saw a post somewhere earlier pointing out 2021 we only have 4 picks or 5. We only have four for 2022: rounds 3, 5 and 7 have been dealt already. I don't want Jarmo dealing any more away on long shot trades to juice the team in the hopes we can limp into the playoffs
• Two significant pieces of the future have pretty much forced their way out of town in the last 12 months
• Since his first draft in 2013, Jarmo has made 9 first rounds picks. Four (Werenski, Carlsson, Foudy, Chinakhov) remain in the system. Carlsson is trending to bust or number 7 d-man at best, Foudy doesn't look much more promising than speedy 3rd liner with some scoring and Chinkhov is too new to know what we have.
• And the team is underperforming.

At this point, I see nothing that would recommend anyone on the coaching staff or front office should be retained.

 

[LoneFunyan]

I continue to believe that firing Torts just for the sake of change and promoting Shaw or Larsen is dumb.

Maybe jarmo believes the same.

it’s almost assured that torts won’t be back. But I’m somewhat happy he will finish the year here. He deserves it. Hopefully it won’t impact Jones Werenski or Laine staying

I'm seriously asking, and not trying to be snarky: What do you mean firing Torts would be just for the sake of change? Isn't firing any coach just for the sake of change?

I mean, there's no absolutes, ever, when if comes to firing coaches - you're always going based on performance, what you think that performance should be and whether there's a gap that could come from coaching issues. Unless you get players coming in and straight-up saying "we're dogging it on purpose until this guy is removed", you're always getting rid of a coach based on "I think this is what I can do right now to make the team better." which to me is akin to "we gotta make a change to make a change".

 

[DarkandStormy]

If you believe this team could turn it around, now is the time to make a change. Look at the Pens - hired Bylsma mid-season, won a Cup. Fired Bylsma mid-season, won a Cup. Look at the Blues - fired Yeo mid-season, won a Cup. Look at the Stars last season - fired coach mid-season, made the Cup Final.

I'm not saying this team is going to make a Cup Final, or even has the talent to do so, but if you believe they're there...there is precedent for firing the coach mid-season.

 

[majormajor]

We don't know, at this point

• if Domi has forgotten how to play hockey or is being misused, or something in between
• if Jones has an issue or is just feeling stiffled
• if Laine is a thing
• if Roslovic is an acceptable 2C, good 3C, acceptable 3C,...
• if Grigorenko has anything to offer anywhere, ever
• etc.

If we leave Torts around for the season, we go into next year without any sense of whether the team was underperforming due to coach/system fatigue etc.

Absolutely, there's information here that we need to discover this year.

 

[stonec]

I read this and I say to myself "how?" and keep going...


...and yet after reading the rest of this post, I'm still not seeing an answer to that question. I mean, yeah, that's a decent enough sum-up of what happened to the center depth, but there's nothing in there that talks about coaching influence at all.

I see it as a coaching problem that both Dubois and Koivu, who were supposed to be the current franchise center and the experienced guy, are gone within the first couple of games after just signing new contracts with the team. Dubois gets benched and Koivu doesn't make it into the line-up after playing almost 15 seasons in a top six role in Minnesota. It *could* all be due to other circumstances of course and have nothing to do with coaching, but it's becoming a little too co-incidental to see all these players wanting out.

 

[MissADD]

We don't know, at this point

• if Domi has forgotten how to play hockey or is being misused, or something in between
• if Jones has an issue or is just feeling stiffled
• if Laine is a thing
• if Roslovic is an acceptable 2C, good 3C, acceptable 3C,...
• if Grigorenko has anything to offer anywhere, ever
• etc.

If we leave Torts around for the season, we go into next year without any sense of whether the team was underperforming due to coach/system fatigue etc. It might also help to signal to Jones, Werekski and others who may be souring on the org that we're committed to a new direction.

Beyond Torts, I'm wondering how anyone justifies keeping Jarmo around. Top to bottom, it feels like we haven't been in a position this bad since mid-MacLean era.

• The on-ice product is as bad as it was back then, and kind of feels worse because we know there's more talent than what's shown on the ice
• The cupboard is devoid of any high-end talent or even imminent "pretty good" talent. The three Russian saviors are seasons away and while they may be good, aren't likely to be franchise type players.
• We have few draft picks for 2021 and 2022. I saw a post somewhere earlier pointing out 2021 we only have 4 picks or 5. We only have four for 2022: rounds 3, 5 and 7 have been dealt already. I don't want Jarmo dealing any more away on long shot trades to juice the team in the hopes we can limp into the playoffs
• Two significant pieces of the future have pretty much forced their way out of town in the last 12 months
• Since his first draft in 2013, Jarmo has made 9 first rounds picks. Four (Werenski, Carlsson, Foudy, Chinakhov) remain in the system. Carlsson is trending to bust or number 7 d-man at best, Foudy doesn't look much more promising than speedy 3rd liner with some scoring and Chinkhov is too new to know what we have.
• And the team is underperforming.

At this point, I see nothing that would recommend anyone on the coaching staff or front office should be retained.

They actually 7 picks in the 2021 draft. Don't have a second and have 2 fifths. And in 2022 they don't have a 3rd, 5th or their 7th. But I think they have the Ducks 7th in 2022.

 

[majormajor]

I see it as a coaching problem that both Dubois and Koivu, who were supposed to be the current franchise center and the experienced guy, are gone within the first couple of games after just signing new contracts with the team. Dubois gets benched and Koivu doesn't make it into the line-up after playing almost 15 seasons in a top six role in Minnesota. It *could* all be due to other circumstances of course and have nothing to do with coaching, but it's becoming a little too co-incidental to see all these players wanting out.

I believe Koivu when he says that his disappointment in his own game is why he stopped. He said he didn't feel the fire to fight for his role.

 

[LoneFunyan]

They actually 7 picks in the 2021 draft. Don't have a second and have 2 fifths. And in 2022 they don't have a 3rd, 5th or their 7th. But I think they have the Ducks 7th in 2022.

I didn't check 2021 since I had taken the other post on faith.

According to Wikipedia, there's a floating 7th which could come in 2021 or 2022. It's tied to unknown conditions so it's not clear where that one will end up at the moment.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

You gonna change your mind again when we lose to Detroit?

I haven’t changed my mind.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Dumb because what? You think it's possible that they can play even worse? I'm not sure if that is possible.

In other words, when it is this bad, what do you have to lose?

Stability. Nobody is going to listen to a lame duck coach. And yeah I am aware Torts is a lame duck coach, and maybe that’s why we’re in this mess.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

I continue to believe that firing Torts just for the sake of change and promoting Shaw or Larsen is dumb.

Maybe jarmo believes the same.

it’s almost assured that torts won’t be back. But I’m somewhat happy he will finish the year here. He deserves it. Hopefully it won’t impact Jones Werenski or Laine staying

They don't have to be given the permanent job but if you keep Torts just to prevent them from getting a tryout at the job also means that they just aren't head coach material in this organization, then why have they been here all along to begin with?

 

[Viqsi]

They don't have to be given the permanent job but if you keep Torts just to prevent them from getting a tryout at the job also means that they just aren't head coach material in this organization, then why have they been here all along to begin with?

Um. Because some people make exceedingly competent assistants so long as they stay within that scope of competence, and Peter Principleing them would be even worse for the team?

 

[KJ Dangler]

That's the kind of question the media should be asking.

They don’t .. whole thing from the tv broadcasters , Jackets radio broadcaster , to local media all refuse to ask tough questions . My first question is why did Karlsson blow up the moment he got away from Tortarella , why is Wennberg now producing offensively , and why couldn’t they do it here ? How did Domi score 72 , have another season in 50s , was on pace for 50s last yr in a regular season , and comes here and is on pace for 20 points . At what point do people quit ignoring the coincidences . Bjorkstrand is seen this great offensive weapon , he had 3 goals in Feb , barely has gotten out of the mid 30s point wise most seasons . Why does he have trouble producing here ? But yeah , none of these things probably had anything to do with why PLD didn’t want to tie his future up here

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

Um. Because some people make exceedingly competent assistants so long as they stay within that scope of competence, and Peter Principleing them would be even worse for the team?

So we don't want people to do their job so well that they get promoted?

Isn't it smart to not have at least one guy on staff who could potentially be a competent head coach? We had that in Paul Maclean and then we booted him because the PP still sucked.

 

[Viqsi]

So we don't want people to do their job so well that they get promoted?

Isn't it smart to not have at least one guy on staff who could potentially be a competent head coach? We had that in Paul Maclean and then we booted him because the PP still sucked.

I think it would indeed be nice to have such a guy. I'm not yet convinced that we do and I wouldn't mind bringing one in.

 

[KJ Dangler]

I continue to believe that firing Torts just for the sake of change and promoting Shaw or Larsen is dumb.

Maybe jarmo believes the same.

it’s almost assured that torts won’t be back. But I’m somewhat happy he will finish the year here. He deserves it. Hopefully it won’t impact Jones Werenski or Laine staying

Your loyalty as a gm is to the owner and your players . I’m not sold on Shaw or Larsen , but if the head coach is living in players heads to the point that really good players can’t consistently execute , why in the world would you keep a lame duck coach around . Jarmo is either giving the dreaded vote of confidence in which the coach is canned within a couple games , or maybe he’s just as stubborn as Torts, if that’s the case , I won’t be sad to see a full house cleaning at end of the season

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

I think it would indeed be nice to have such a guy. I'm not yet convinced that we do and I wouldn't mind bringing one in.

It would. I also don't want the excuse that the previous guy sticks around being that we have no other competent options.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

Your loyalty as a gm is to the owner and your players . I’m not sold on Shaw or Larsen , but if the head coach is living in players heads to the point that really good players can’t consistently execute , why in the world would you keep a lame duck coach around . Jarmo is either giving the dreaded vote of confidence in which the coach is canned within a couple games , or maybe he’s just as stubborn as Torts, if that’s the case , I won’t be sad to see a full house cleaning at end of the season

This is what I fear.

 

[majormajor]

Stability. Nobody is going to listen to a lame duck coach. And yeah I am aware Torts is a lame duck coach, and maybe that’s why we’re in this mess.

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you.

You're fine with replacing Torts but not fine with an interim situation?

Sometimes players actually do listen in an interim situation. Berube and Bowness were both interims that went on to lead their teams to the finals. Berube and I think maybe Larry Robinson back in the day both won cups with the interim coach tag on them.

Um. Because some people make exceedingly competent assistants so long as they stay within that scope of competence, and Peter Principleing them would be even worse for the team?

Do we know anything about Shaw/Larsen that would suggest which role they are better or worse suited for? I don't think we know enough about them as head coaches to base our opinion on Torts' firing on it. I know a lot more about the fact that Torts is either doing a poor job or is being tuned out.

Personally I'd love it if someone like Gallant was brought in, and his assistants were Shaw and Letestu. Or Letestu and Jalonen. Burrows just went straight up to assistant coach in a similar situation in Montreal to what Letestu could do here. I'd want Gallant or maybe even Julien, but for all I know Brad Shaw could be the exact HC we need. He's got plenty of ideas that Torts has rejected over the years, he might know exactly what to do. He's not a motivational speaker but I personally think you want to leave space for the leaders on the team to take up that role.

 

[GoJackets1]

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you.

You're fine with replacing Torts but not fine with an interim situation?

Sometimes players actually do listen in an interim situation. Berube and Bowness were both interims that went on to lead their teams to the finals. Berube and I think maybe Larry Robinson back in the day both won cups with the interim coach tag on them.



Do we know anything about Shaw/Larsen that would suggest which role they are better or worse suited for? I don't think we know enough about them as head coaches to base our opinion on Torts' firing on it. I know a lot more about the fact that Torts is either doing a poor job or is being tuned out.

Personally I'd love it if someone like Gallant was brought in, and his assistants were Shaw and Letestu. Or Letestu and Jalonen. Burrows just went straight up to assistant coach in a similar situation in Montreal to what Letestu could do here. I'd want Gallant or maybe even Julien, but for all I know Brad Shaw could be the exact HC we need. He's got plenty of ideas that Torts has rejected over the years, he might know exactly what to do. He's not a motivational speaker but I personally think you want to leave space for the leaders on the team to take up that role.

Do you have examples of this? Curious.

 

[KJ Dangler]

What worries me about Shaw and Larsen , is that Torts has said repeatedly in his radio shows that Larsen and Shaw coach the x and os , and Torts focuses on the mental side with the players , which may explain why Every player grips his stick so tight . I think our system , and lack of adjustments are clearly an issue , but still, maybe most of the problem is mental , and if Torts goes , they can all take a deep breath , relax , and just play?

 

[majormajor]

Do you have examples of this? Curious.

No. I'm just assuming it, but I think it is a safe assumption that all assistant coaches have their ideas nixed every now and then. And Shaw has a very fertile mind.

For a known example, I have heard that Larsen has different ideas about personnel on the PP and doesn't get his way. He doesn't like the practice of changing up the PP personnel based on 5v5 performance of those players.

 

[GoJackets1]

What worries me about Shaw and Larsen , is that Torts has said repeatedly in his radio shows that Larsen and Shaw coach the x and os , and Torts focuses on the mental side with the players , which may explain why Every player grips his stick so tight . I think our system , and lack of adjustments are clearly an issue , but still, maybe most of the problem is mental , and if Torts goes , they can all take a deep breath , relax , and just play?

If it really is mental, and the system is fine, it could still work with Torts through the rest of the season if he indicates a change in approach. Make it a goal to give all the forwards 13-17 minutes in ice time a game, and let them play through the mistakes. It's possible some of the younger guys won't be so timid with the puck if they aren't worried about being stapled to the bench for a mistake. I'm really not that worried about a short term "lack of accountability". Pro players know when they f*** up. With this approach, we probably still end up being bad, but at least we can develop our young guys in a short season by giving them consistent ice time. If this change leads to a massive boon in performance and wins, then it probably indicates that Torts' hard ass approach has been outgrown. I still think the system itself is a big portion of the problem, but if Torts is staying through the end of the season no matter what, then this should be the approach.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Your loyalty as a gm is to the owner and your players . I’m not sold on Shaw or Larsen , but if the head coach is living in players heads to the point that really good players can’t consistently execute , why in the world would you keep a lame duck coach around . Jarmo is either giving the dreaded vote of confidence in which the coach is canned within a couple games , or maybe he’s just as stubborn as Torts, if that’s the case , I won’t be sad to see a full house cleaning at end of the season

This part is correct, the second half isn't.

If he was loyal to his players he wouldn't trade them. That's just the business. Coaches and GMs are hired to get fired, everyone knows this, and players are signed to be traded or let go eventually.

Maybe there is some merit to the "CBJ don't pay coaches" thing and thats an impact in the decision to keep Torts. Or maybe Torts still has the backing of the teams biggest stars/leaders and the GM is going to stick with him until the signs are abundantly clear that the team needs to move on.