Proposal: Toronto - Winnipeg

[RationalExpectations]

Robertson is Bracco bis : undersized, on the ice he scores in the AHL but does nothing at NHL level, off the ice he gets thrown in as if he was worth a 15 OA by TOR fans. You want a Scheifele comp, look at what VGK paid for Eichel.

Aside of the value being far off I am not sure why TOR wants to play Scheifele at 2C and put JT on the wing and why WPG would like to lose their C depth (not easy to rebuild)

 

[Huffer]

Wow, did not think I was that far off but I didn’t know Jets fans valued Lowry so highly. I do think Nylander, Robertson and a 3rd for Scheifele is fair. People and mostly Jets fans are going to be very surprised at what they get for Scheifele if he is moved.

Personally, I don't think the reaction is so much from a "value" perspective, but from a "why are we doing this" perspective.

If the Jets trade Scheifele, it's a huge move for them. He's now the HF whipping boy for some stupid reason, but he's been a great player for the franchise and has been putting up point per game seasons for 6 years now as a centre.

So if they move him, it has to serve a purpose. Now Nylander is a good player, but if the Jets are moving Scheifele, getting a winger with the same term but higher price tag doesn't make much sense. And losing their 3rd line C on top doesn't help the team either now or the future.

It's most likely that if the Jets move Scheifele that it's more of a futures move, as teams are going to want him to get them over the top, and they're not likely going to want to move the now pieces that are going to help them right now.

So the Jets are most likely moving Scheifele for a young roster player, top prospect, 1st like deal and then trying to use cap space to improve their team IMO. Moving him for Nylander doesn't make the team any better for the next few years and doesn't make them better in the future. It's sort of a directionless move IMO.

 

[Hunter368]

Personally, I don't think the reaction is so much from a "value" perspective, but from a "why are we doing this" perspective.

If the Jets trade Scheifele, it's a huge move for them. He's now the HF whipping boy for some stupid reason, but he's been a great player for the franchise and has been putting up point per game seasons for 6 years now as a centre.

So if they move him, it has to serve a purpose. Now Nylander is a good player, but if the Jets are moving Scheifele, getting a winger with the same term but higher price tag doesn't make much sense. And losing their 3rd line C on top doesn't help the team either now or the future.

It's most likely that if the Jets move Scheifele that it's more of a futures move, as teams are going to want him to get them over the top, and they're not likely going to want to move the now pieces that are going to help them right now.

So the Jets are most likely moving Scheifele for a young roster player, top prospect, 1st like deal and then trying to use cap space to improve their team IMO. Moving him for Nylander doesn't make the team any better for the next few years and doesn't make them better in the future. It's sort of a directionless move IMO.

Exactly

 

[BlueBaron]

Big fail OP. You low balled them (not really). No one wants Schiefle but a non playoff who want pure points, no contender can risk his two way play. Lowry is nice but obviously not worth Nylander. Totally not what we would go after for Nylander. How the OP looks at our roster and thinks we need two top 9 C for a winger is beyond me. A RHD and/or a goalie I could see.

I'd wager the Jets GM would do Schiefle for Nylander straight up and giggle afterward but we arent doing that.

Lowry for Robertson and a 3rd is probably fair if they are rebuilding but they aren't.

A much as Peg fans want to say its bad I don't think they understand Nylander is worth more than Schiefle.

 

[tbcwpg]

Big fail OP. You low balled them (not really). No one wants Schiefle but a non playoff who want pure points, no contender can risk his two way play. Lowry is nice but obviously not worth Nylander. Totally not what we would go after for Nylander. How the OP looks at our roster and thinks we need two top 9 C for a winger is beyond me. A RHD and/or a goalie I could see.

I'd wager the Jets GM would do Schiefle for Nylander straight up and giggle afterward but we arent doing that.

Lowry for Robertson and a 3rd is probably fair if they are rebuilding but they aren't.

A much as Peg fans want to say its bad I don't think they understand Nylander is worth more than Schiefle.

I think we're saying we don't want to make our C depth Dubois and then AHL guys for two wingers. The Jets have Connor, Ehlers, Wheeler on the wings right now, Perfetti looked good in the games he played before he got hurt. Adding two more wingers doesn't help, especially when the 2nd line C after Scheifele and Lowry are moved is David Gustafsson, and no I don't expect you to have heard of him.

Nylander isn't worth more than Scheifele, I think he's worth a little less, but it's not that far a gap.

 

[BlueBaron]

I think we're saying we don't want to make our C depth Dubois and then AHL guys for two wingers.

Nylander isn't worth more than Scheifele, I think he's worth a little less, but it's not that far a gap.

Fair enough and good post. I like Dubios a lot (I expect you guys do to). Let's agree to disagree on the value, Schiefle's stock is low right now and Nylander's is high so I'm dubious. Nylander is no Selke guy but his two way play is solid. C is valuable so this is a risk on my part but I just don't think a good team would risk Schiefle and they would Nylander. Schiefle seems like a guy you cant win with.

 

[tbcwpg]

Fair enough and good post. I like Dubios a lot (I expect you guys do to). Let's agree to disagree on the value, Schiefle's stock is low right now and Nylander's is high so I'm dubious. Nylander is no Selke guy but his two way play is solid. C is valuable so this is a risk on my part but I just don't think a good team would risk Schiefle and they would Nylander. Schiefle seems like a guy you cant win with.

Scheifele's value comes from his position and his contract. Nylander just scores a little less, makes a little more money. I think Nylander benefits from playing with some really elite level guys whereas Scheifele doesn't have that benefit as much.

 

[BlueBaron]

Scheifele's value comes from his position and his contract. Nylander just scores a little less, makes a little more money. I think Nylander benefits from playing with some really elite level guys whereas Scheifele doesn't have that benefit as much.

Yes but Nylander is not a Defensive liability, Schiefle is a famous one. His press conference doesn't help matters. I think they are both basically point a game guys. One is in a more valuable position but the other is more complete. Maybe they are closer to even in value but as I said, no Contender can risk a defensive black hole (lets say 8 teams?). Smaller market.

 

[tbcwpg]

Yes but Nylander is not a Defensive liability, Schiefle is a famous one. His press conference doesn't help matters. I think they are both basically point a game guys. One is in a more valuable position but the other is more complete. Maybe they are closer to even in value but as I said, no Contender can risk a defensive black hole (lets say 8 teams?). Smaller market.

I think there are a lot of teams that would feel they can work around or fix the defensive issues. Just get him to put some effort in and have some defensive structure (the Jets have none) and his defensive problems aren't going to really be talked about.

 

[joepeps]

didn't Mark S basically come out and say he wants out unless they are changing shit?

 

[BlueBaron]

I think there are a lot of teams that would feel they can work around or fix the defensive issues. Just get him to put some effort in and have some defensive structure (the Jets have none) and his defensive problems aren't going to really be talked about.

I can think of a lot of team that could use him, my point is more would want Nylander. They don't have to work around him or hope he is going to suddenly be a different player. I could list many teams that would never consider Schiefle and few that would not consider Nylander.

Bruins, Penguins, Carolina, Tampa, Calgary, Toronto, Florida, Oilers, Colorado, LA, and the Rangers probably arent going to risk him IMO.

Minny, Stl and Washington also seem like longshots. I don't see the same issue with Nylander. I could be biased but I just think there is a big gap in attractiveness. If you need a C you need a C but if you want to get better you get the player without the warts you take Nylander.

 

[tbcwpg]

I can think of a lot of team that could use him, my point is more would want Nylander. They don't have to work around him or hope he is going to suddenly be a different player. I could list many teams that would never consider Schiefle and few that would not consider Nylander.

Bruins, Penguins, Carolina, Tampa, Calgary, Toronto, Florida, Oilers, Colorado, LA, and the Rangers probably arent going to risk him IMO.

Minny, Stl and Washington also seem like longshots. I don't see the same issue with Nylander. I could be biased but I just think there is a big gap in attractiveness. If you need a C you need a C but if you want to get better you get the player without the warts you take Nylander.

Yeah I think you might be letting bias get in the way a bit. All of the teams you listed would take him. The contract and the points are hard to ignore, especially when the Jets lack of defensive structure is well known around the league. Scheifele just has to tell a new team he was frustrated with the lack of direction from the coaches (which I believe is true to some degree) and that's that.

Nylander would also draw similar interest but I'd say that your thought that all those teams are going to "stay away" from Scheifele is incorrect. Carolina signed a player who insulted his goaltender and didn't get along with anyone on his team. Evander Kane is on his 4th NHL team. The tolerance the league has for attitude issues is very big.

 

[BlueBaron]

Yeah I think you might be letting bias get in the way a bit. All of the teams you listed would take him. The contract and the points are hard to ignore, especially when the Jets lack of defensive structure is well known around the league. Scheifele just has to tell a new team he was frustrated with the lack of direction from the coaches (which I believe is true to some degree) and that's that.

Nylander would also draw similar interest but I'd say that your thought that all those teams are going to "stay away" from Scheifele is incorrect. Carolina signed a player who insulted his goaltender and didn't get along with anyone on his team. Evander Kane is on his 4th NHL team. The tolerance the league has for attitude issues is very big.

I'm not talking about attitude, I'm talking about not playing D which kills in the playoffs. I respect your opinion but I'm hearing a lot of value based on him being someone he currently isn't vs who he is known to be. That is a risk. It could happen but in a vacuum he is a point a game C who is one way.

If you arent talking about rookies or prospects and relying on change of scenery for him to make him a different player you are talking about optimism and risk. The big difference in this conversation is I don't have to defend Nylander's past or hope he has to become a new guy for his value to be strong. You need people to be optimistic or convinced they can change him. That is a more desperate position but again, position is not outside this equation but we are leaning heavily on position and a magical change to make Schiefle more attractive. So I think you guys need a more ideal partner for your assertion to be true whereas our guy has general appeal.

I'm not saying I'm right, or my position is fact. I'm just saying Schielfe's warts make me doubt he would be in higher demand.

 

[Snowman]

The main issue with Nylander vs Scheifele is that all the issues Scheifele supposedly has, poor defensively, me first attitude, Nylander has as well plus Nylander is a soft perimeter player that avoids contact at all costs.

Then you factor in that Nylander is more expensive, scores less and less consistently and is a winger as opposed to a far more valuable center.

Scheifele is more valuable, undoubtedly.

 

[Adam da bomb]

I'm not talking about attitude, I'm talking about not playing D which kills in the playoffs. I respect your opinion but I'm hearing a lot of value based on him being someone he currently isn't vs who he is known to be. That is a risk. It could happen but in a vacuum he is a point a game C who is one way.

If you arent talking about rookies or prospects and relying on change of scenery for him to make him a different player you are talking about optimism and risk. The big difference in this conversation is I don't have to defend Nylander's past or hope he has to become a new guy for his value to be strong. You need people to be optimistic or convinced they can change him. That is a more desperate position but again, position is not outside this equation but we are leaning heavily on position and a magical change to make Schiefle more attractive. So I think you guys need a more ideal partner for your assertion to be true whereas our guy has general appeal.

I'm not saying I'm right, or my position is fact. I'm just saying Schielfe's warts make me doubt he would be in higher demand.

Schief has also always had more points being the best player on his team. Plus cap space is cap space. Schief has generally out scored his defensive woes and the point is to win by more goals.
That said all the teams left do seem to have #1 centres that are strong two way players. Except maybe Edmonton.

 

[BlueBaron]

Schief has also always had more points being the best player on his team.

I think a lot of people would disagree about him being the Jets best player. Points are not the issue, no debate he is a solid point producer.

I watch a Jets podcast by a former coach (WHL I think?) and he did a Schiefle Corsi break down and wanted to cry. That is the issue, not talent, not productivity.

I'll put it in simpler terms, if we had Schiefle as our 2C instead of JT we would have lost a lot sooner. Tampa would have chewed him up and spit him out and laughed at us for using him against them. A lot of people would rather have a 60 point two way guy.

How many people would pick Schiefle over Suzuki? I'd rather have Suzuki despite his Hab contamination. Points arent everything my friend, they help but they arent a deal breaker if you want to win the cup.

 

[Adam da bomb]

I think a lot of people would disagree about him being the Jets best player. Points are not the issue, no debate he is a solid point producer.

I watch a Jets podcast by a former coach (WHL I think?) and he did a Schiefle Corsi break down and wanted to cry. That is the issue, not talent, not productivity.

I'll put it in simpler terms, if we had Schiefle as our 2C instead of JT we would have lost a lot sooner. Tampa would have chewed him up and spit him out and laughed at us for using him against them. A lot of people would rather have a 60 point two way guy.

How many people would pick Schiefle over Suzuki? I'd rather have Suzuki despite his Hab contamination. Points arent everything my friend, they help but they arent a deal breaker if you want to win the cup.

Matthews is not a selke nominee but I’d rather him than Barkov because of points.
Gaudreau is considered weak defensively and yet he is the best player on flames. No one is writing home about Mcdavid’s defence.

 

[tbcwpg]

I'm not talking about attitude, I'm talking about not playing D which kills in the playoffs. I respect your opinion but I'm hearing a lot of value based on him being someone he currently isn't vs who he is known to be. That is a risk. It could happen but in a vacuum he is a point a game C who is one way.

If you arent talking about rookies or prospects and relying on change of scenery for him to make him a different player you are talking about optimism and risk. The big difference in this conversation is I don't have to defend Nylander's past or hope he has to become a new guy for his value to be strong. You need people to be optimistic or convinced they can change him. That is a more desperate position but again, position is not outside this equation but we are leaning heavily on position and a magical change to make Schiefle more attractive. So I think you guys need a more ideal partner for your assertion to be true whereas our guy has general appeal.

I'm not saying I'm right, or my position is fact. I'm just saying Schielfe's warts make me doubt he would be in higher demand.

Scheifele's defence in the playoffs hasn't been half bad. He was a big part of why McDavid couldn't really get going against the Oilers last season, and he was exceptional in the 2017-18 playoff. He didn't get to play in round 2 last year and he was injured in the first period in the play in during the bubble.

I think there's a healthy debate about Nylander vs Scheifele and their trade value (which I think is quite even), but you listed about 10 teams that you said would "stay away" from Scheifele and I really think that's untrue. A return on Scheifele is going to be fairly high based on today's standards.

 

[Finnflash]

Rinse and repeat.

How often are posters right about value.

Value is all about what someone will pay.

All it takes is two teams to be interested then someone will give in.

I agree with other posters that the jets will look for futures but in the end I don’t think they trade Shif after we get Trotz

 

[Hockey 4 Life]

Jets Decline
That sucks for WPG

Counter Offer…
To Winnipeg:
C - Austin Matthews

To Toronto:
C - Mark Scheifele
LD/RD - Nate Schmidt

You trash a trade proposal which admittedly doesn't work for the jets then post this gem lol.

 

[BatVader]

You trash a trade proposal which admittedly doesn't work for the jets then post this gem lol.

Hey… crap for crap

 

[BlueBaron]

Matthews is not a selke nominee but I’d rather him than Barkov because of points.
Gaudreau is considered weak defensively and yet he is the best player on flames. No one is writing home about Mcdavid’s defence.

Not a lot of Cup wins on that list. Matthews is a bad example because he is a strong two way player and this is well documented. Gaudreau just set a plus minus record didn't he?

I don't think you thought this out.

 

[BlueBaron]

Scheifele's defence in the playoffs hasn't been half bad. He was a big part of why McDavid couldn't really get going against the Oilers last season, and he was exceptional in the 2017-18 playoff. He didn't get to play in round 2 last year and he was injured in the first period in the play in during the bubble.

I think there's a healthy debate about Nylander vs Scheifele and their trade value (which I think is quite even), but you listed about 10 teams that you said would "stay away" from Scheifele and I really think that's untrue. A return on Scheifele is going to be fairly high based on today's standards.

Fair. Just my impression and far from fact. I have no doubt he has strong value and I also feel they are close. That was the my original point, that Jets fans were making Schiefle out to be much more valuable and so thinking the proposal is one sided. I think the OP came in close on value.

 

[SUX2BU]

More wingers, less centres ...... Chevy's response to OP laughable trade

 

[seanlinden]

Don't see the need to include the "Lowry component".

That being said, as a Leaf fan, the concept of Nylander <-> Scheifele makes a fair bit of sense. I get the idea that Scheif needs to move into a "stronger" room where maybe he isn't the #1 or #2 guy on the team. Columbus replaces some of the dynamic offensive ability that they lost in Laine.

There is the challenge of WPG's centre depth post deal... not sure Kerfoot is good enough to be a difference maker in that regard, but he's always been a really solid even strength producer.