Pre-Game Talk: Toronto @ Boston -- game 5.

[Stephen]

Complementary pieces and they got arguably their best player from sucking, exactly what I said.

Also, the goalies don't matter, Kuemper had similar numbers to Samsanov, but they never found a good fit.

They want Manson traded now... a lot of fans wanted Kadri gone when he was suspended again.

You can pretend like all these complimentary guys were the reason they won (mentioning goaltending is laughable), but it is not.

Well, if you want to dismiss all the good that Colorado needed to do to become a winner and want to talk about core pieces, the conclusion you’re tap dancing around is Matthews and Marner are nothing like Mackinnon, Rantanen and Makar. Clutch superstars who are driven and deliver.

 

[Jojalu]

At least he helped us get rid of dead weight like Hyman, Kadri, AJ,Kapanen... the fat is gone, and now only muscle Mitch remains!


edit: Can we trade Mitch for Hyman?

Not really sure AJ or Kap would help

 

[mjd1001]

Matthews hasn’t exactly been a tower of power for 3/4 games in this series so if he’s out, it’s not like the Leafs will be missing some massive advantage. Maybe someone can be an Alyn McCauley for a night or two.

Ok, this team is NOT better without Matthews, that is not what I am saying below...but...they certainly can win without him:

-This season, Matthews missed one game. The leafs won 7-0
-Last year Matthews missed 8 games. The Leafs won 4 of them
-The year before that, Matthews missed 9 games, the Leafs won 7 and only lost 2.
-The year before that, Matthews missed 4 games. Leafs won 3 and only lost 1.

For his career, Matthews has missed 56 games. The leafs have won 35 of those and played at a 105 point pace without him.

Again, hes a great player, but even with THIS core, historically, they win games at about the same pace with him in the lineup as they do without him. Tomorrow's game is not an automatic loss if he doesn't play.

 

[notbias]

Well, if you want to dismiss all the good that Colorado needed to do to become a winner and want to talk about core pieces, the conclusion you’re tap dancing around is Matthews and Marner are nothing like Mackinnon, Rantanen and Makar. Clutch superstars who are driven and deliver.

Well, Mac and Rantanen failed without Makar, which was my point, they needed another piece, unless you think the 2nd round is good enough.

If you want to tap dance around the fact that Colorado were known as chokers before Makar, you can.

 

[Jojalu]

Some of us are serious about winning. Some are serious about scalping. Some corps are grifting off the logo. When all is said and done the only fans that matter are the ones that only care about winning.

I don't know how a Leaf fan can not be upset or pissed by what has happened. Do you know how long it will take to get as lucky as we did with drafting AM MM and WN. Even if MM were traded for a D.

If this falls apart we could be waiting another couple decades for a sniff at a cup. 30 years since there has been a cup in Canada means something. Our odds are low as it is.

I just don't get your brand of fandom. Its like you are always indifferent to the team.



Maybe you are right. Regardless only a new coaching staff can test this theory.

Teams couldn't survive if there were only fans that cared about winning. Even then, people may care about winning but don't feel the need to rant and rave. The loudest guy isn't always the guy who is most passionate.

Plus others have a different viewpoint on how to actually win.

The diverse nature of a fanbase is what makes it fun. When it finally clicks, everything but the moment is forgotten. Maybe someday I will be in that moment

 

[notbias]

St. Louis won the Cup five years ago, how could they possibly be close to as bad?

Didn't go year by year, but their away record was pretty good, even on their run

round 1: 1-2 at home
round 2: 2-2 at home
round 3: 2-1 at home
round 4: 1-2 at home

so 6-7 at home.

 

[Stephen]

Well, Mac and Rantanen failed without Makar, which was my point, they needed another piece, unless you think the 2nd round is good enough.

If you want to tap dance around the fact that Colorado were known as chokers before Makar, you can.

Colorado lost in the 2nd round 3 years in a row WITH Makar but eventually overcame because their core group matured and their management brought in a strong supporting cast year after year. Two factors which never happened in Toronto.

Sad thing is they were having the same success during their choking years than Toronto has managed in their best year.

 

[myleafs]

The leafs will do the leafiest thing, give us hope and force a game 7 and lose 4-1 . More suffering is to come. The leafs would rather kill its fan base by a thousand cuts then a simple needle injection

Feels different this year, I dont think they make it past Tuesday.

 

[egd27]

Shanahan was essentially a con-man. He hired a yes man and person similar in Dubas.

I'm not sure if Shanahan was the con man or the mark for Kid Kyle.

 

[ThrowDemTongs]

Bad coaching
Bad goaltending
Bad defence
Bad offence
Bad PP
Bad PK

...but we gonna win right??

Cadillac

The boy's a timeboooooomb

 

[Rare Jewel]

Ok, this team is NOT better without Matthews, that is not what I am saying below...but...they certainly can win without him:

-This season, Matthews missed one game. The leafs won 7-0
-Last year Matthews missed 8 games. The Leafs won 4 of them
-The year before that, Matthews missed 9 games, the Leafs won 7 and only lost 2.
-The year before that, Matthews missed 4 games. Leafs won 3 and only lost 1.

For his career, Matthews has missed 56 games. The leafs have won 35 of those and played at a 105 point pace without him.

Again, hes a great player, but even with THIS core, historically, they win games at about the same pace with him in the lineup as they do without him. Tomorrow's game is not an automatic loss if he doesn't play.

Yeah, but who are they playing? Most of these stats are compilations against junk teams that don't make the playoffs.

And that's this team in a nutshell, really. They can lay a beating on San Jose or Anaheim, but when they play a team that's as good, particularly defensively, they falter.

 

[Evilhomer]

Would involve finishing last... not sure this team is capable of that.

Yeah, no chance of that.

 

[mjd1001]

Teams couldn't survive if there were only fans that cared about winning. Even then, people may care about winning but don't feel the need to rant and rave. The loudest guy isn't always the guy who is most passionate.

Plus others have a different viewpoint on how to actually win.

The diverse nature of a fanbase is what makes it fun. When it finally clicks, everything but the moment is forgotten. Maybe someday I will be in that moment

I understand most of what you are saying.

I USED to be a fan where the only thing that mattered was winning. Any single game that was a lost was maddening and a total waste of my time. If my team didn't win the championship...they they BETTER have made at least significant progress from the previous season. No progress, not having anything to look forward to the team being a LOT better in the near future...I couldn't stand it.

Now, yeah, I want the wins, but for me its about entertainment and just liking the team. The problem I have with this current roster/team is that I don't really like the players. Sure, winning would change that for many (if this team goes on a miracle run to win the cup and the stars perform, they will be loved a lot more than they are now), but compared to teams in the past, this 'core' doesn't seem as relatable, doesn't SEEM like they really want to represent the city and the fans, and therefore to me they aren't as likeable.

Winning is the most fun. But for me its not the only thing. Tinkering with the roster when changes are needed is fun. Seeing a young player develop into something better each year is fun. Storylines are fun. I don't go into every season expecting wins and nothing else, and because of that I don't get as upset by sports.

I know some disagree but to me the bottom line is this, there are really 2 ways you can enjoy a season by a team you like. 1.) Win the championship. 2.) exceed pre-season expectations. When winning is all that matters, your 'preseason expectations' ARE the championship, and that makes it really hard to actually enjoy watching sports and being a fan of a team...at least for me it does.

If they lose, they lose. Not a good thing. But the next day I'm not going to be calling for heads to roll and things to be started on fire. I will WANT changes to be made, but part of the fun of it for me is seeing what changes ARE made and thinking about them/debating them, and then seeing how the team performs with those changes.

 

[myleafs]

Yep

I can remember half this board losing their minds because Lou wouldn't allow long or facial hair, or Babcock demoting Nylander or Mitch when they were rookies.

Seemed like pointless, insignificant rules at the time to many. Maybe there was method to them.

love or hate lou he tried to instill a team mentality and not an individual one....enter Dubas and here we are

 

[BallardEra]

Agree. If I were a betting man, I would bet he is out. Would be okay losing that bet!

The big sign for me was him not coming back at all for the third period the other night.

He's probably done for the series.

 

[Evilhomer]

I understand most of what you are saying.

I USED to be a fan where the only thing that mattered was winning. Any single game that was a lost was maddening and a total waste of my time. If my team didn't win the championship...they they BETTER have made at least significant progress from the previous season. No progress, not having anything to look forward to the team being a LOT better in the near future...I couldn't stand it.

Now, yeah, I want the wins, but for me its about entertainment and just liking the team. The problem I have with this current roster/team is that I don't really like the players. Sure, winning would change that for many (if this team goes on a miracle run to win the cup and the stars perform, they will be loved a lot more than they are now), but compared to teams in the past, this 'core' doesn't seem as relatable, doesn't SEEM like they really want to represent the city and the fans, and therefore to me they aren't as likeable.

Winning is the most fun. But for me its not the only thing. Tinkering with the roster when changes are needed is fun. Seeing a young player develop into something better each year is fun. Storylines are fun. I don't go into every season expecting wins and nothing else, and because of that I don't get as upset by sports.

I know some disagree but to me the bottom line is this, there are really 2 ways you can enjoy a season by a team you like. 1.) Win the championship. 2.) exceed pre-season expectations. When winning is all that matters, your 'preseason expectations' ARE the championship, and that makes it really hard to actually enjoy watching sports and being a fan of a team...at least for me it does.

If they lose, they lose. Not a good thing. But the next day I'm not going to be calling for heads to roll and things to be started on fire. I will WANT changes to be made, but part of the fun of it for me is seeing what changes ARE made and thinking about them/debating them, and then seeing how the team performs with those changes.

My only comment on this is that when the team was on a long winning streak earlier this season, there were hundreds and hundreds of posts here about how much more likable this team was than prior years teams. It's about winning. The only exception is when a team is so bad that it becomes likeable in a lunchpail sort of way.

 

[myleafs]

Babcock was too much of an egomaniac to me, but as a coach I think he had a great mind for hockey. He knew what he was doing. I bet he despised Dubas.

I wanted to believe he did but if I saw one more stretch pass I was gonna lose it. His teams were not great defensively. His idea of how to play the game was mind numbing at best. He may have seen things in the young trio that we all see and he tried to change but a great mind for hockey? no

 

[mjd1001]

Yeah, but who are they playing? Most of these stats are compilations against junk teams that don't make the playoffs.

And that's this team in a nutshell, really. They can lay a beating on San Jose or Anaheim, but when they play a team that's as good, particularly defensively, they falter.

This year they beat a 'decent' Pittsburgh team but they blew them out 7-0
The year before that they beat Tampa, Nashville, Washington, and shut out Columbus (3 of their 4 wins vs playoff teams that year).
Before that, they topped Boston, Philly, the Islanders, Carolina, and Dallas without him.

So without Matthews over the last few years, they have performed just as well without him as a team as they have with him, and its not all against the worst team in the league. They have wins without him against a good cross section of good, bad, and average teams. While the teams have changed, Boston has some of the same 'core' players as in the past (some changes) but is a similar quality team as they have been, and over the last few years they have played Boston 7 times in games Matthews has missed and the Leafs have beaten the Bruins 5 times and only lost 2 times without Matthews. (and yes, the Bruins have been a playoff team each of those years those 7 games took place).

Historically, the Leafs have a much better record (since Matthews has been a Leaf) against the Bruins in games He misses due to injury than in games he plays.

Again, I'm not saying they aren't better without him, but their record, their chances of winning a game have historically been just as good with him in the lineup as without him (including against good/playoff teams.)

 

[thewave]

Teams couldn't survive if there were only fans that cared about winning. Even then, people may care about winning but don't feel the need to rant and rave. The loudest guy isn't always the guy who is most passionate.

Plus others have a different viewpoint on how to actually win.

The diverse nature of a fanbase is what makes it fun. When it finally clicks, everything but the moment is forgotten. Maybe someday I will be in that moment

Restructuring takes a decade. If this is a flop there are going to be retirees that never witness a cup final in Toronto, not even a cup win. There comes a point where fans need to put the organizations feet to the fire.

Its just beyond me. I get worked up, is what it is I guess.

 

[Rare Jewel]

This year they beat a 'decent' Pittsburgh team but they blew them out 7-0
The year before that they beat Tampa, Nashville, Washington, and shut out Columbus
Before that, they topped Boston, Philly, the Islanders, Carolina, and Dallas without him.

So without Matthews over the last few years, they have performed just as well without him as a team as they have with him, and its not all against the worst team in the league. They have wins without him against a good cross section of good, bad, and average teams.

Again, I'm not saying they aren't better without him, but their record, their chances of winning a game have historically been just as good with him in the lineup as without him (including against good/playoff teams.)

It's an odd occurrence.

Pittsburgh has a strangely good record without Sid as well.

 

[Confucius]

This year they beat a 'decent' Pittsburgh team but they blew them out 7-0
The year before that they beat Tampa, Nashville, Washington, and shut out Columbus
Before that, they topped Boston, Philly, the Islanders, Carolina, and Dallas without him.

So without Matthews over the last few years, they have performed just as well without him as a team as they have with him, and its not all against the worst team in the league. They have wins without him against a good cross section of good, bad, and average teams.

Again, I'm not saying they aren't better without him, but their record, their chances of winning a game have historically been just as good with him in the lineup as without him (including against good/playoff teams.)

So are you saying regular season matters? I’m just trying to keep track of who cares… lol!

 

[mjd1001]

So are you saying regular season matters? I’m just trying to keep track of who cares… lol!

To answer your question honestly, it matters a bit. Playoffs are a step up, but how good your team is, how good your players are, yeah, regular season matters some.

It's an odd occurrence.

Pittsburgh has a strangely good record without Sid as well.

Odd yes.
But it does show that for a small(er) sample size, you can win without your star. Maybe there is something to the theory that, over a SHORT period of time (not a whose season but a few games), that the rest of your team 'steps up' and plays a bit harder/smarter when they know they can't sit back and have the 'star' carry them.

 

[Rare Jewel]

Odd yes.
But it does show that for a small(er) sample size, you can win without your star. Maybe there is something to the theory that, over a SHORT period of time (not a whose season but a few games), that the rest of your team 'steps up' and plays a bit harder/smarter when they know they can't sit back and have the 'star' carry them.

Well, perhaps the power of friendship is one tactic that baffles the Bruins.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Colorado lost in the 2nd round 3 years in a row WITH Makar but eventually overcame because their core group matured and their management brought in a strong supporting cast year after year. Two factors which never happened in Toronto.

Sad thing is they were having the same success during their choking years than Toronto has managed in their best year.

The biggest difference is that Colorado's star players actually show up... but the second biggest difference is that they weren't signed to unprecedented dramatic overpayments.

Their top 4 forwards (with better stats than the leafs top 4 forwards) made a total of 27 million compared to the leafs top 4 forwards making 40 million.

I mean... imagine the leafs had 13 extra million this year to fill out defensive and goaltending help.

 

[Seras]

Coming back from down 1-3 is going to be insane, lets gooooooo