Confirmed with Link: [TOR/PIT] RW Kapanen, D Lindgren, LW Aberg for '20 1st(15th), LW Rodrigues, C Hallander, D Warsofsky

[ULF_55]

This team is much better than last year's.

A healthier team would make a difference, when your top 2 defenders are injured and/or playing injured it does have an impact.
And yes, missing their prime penalty killing defender hurt.

Healthy:

Rielly, Muzzin​

More experience:

Brodie, Bogosian​

More development:

Dermott, Holl
Liljegren, Sandin​

Wild Card:

Lehtonen
​

I can see where we might expect to see a better team, especially if you get improvement at the bottom as well as the middle.

​

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

The pace of a thing does not does not determine the winning or the best results. This "103 point pace" is so phony. It's like no one remembers how badly TOR was playing near the end of the season. If the 82 game season were to play through TOR would have likely not made the playoffs.

Keeping Babcock around to start the season, and not having a respectable nhl back up goalie is on Dubas. I don't think Keefe is a bad coach, but the team eventually started to play .500 hockey.

Everybody uses pace for a season that was interrupted by COVID...

And I can't fault Dubas for "Keeping" Babcock. All reports are he wanted him fired and was overruled. Look at the long timethat went by after they lost again to Boston in 2019. They were in discussions to fire him.

 

[43Kadri43]

Well I think the Moneyball theory got set on fire, by Shanny. Good move.

Signing Simmonds is the only ‘non Moneyball’ move the Leafs made this offseason. Thornton, Vesey, Anderson, Dell, Boyd, resigning Spezza, Malgin etc; that’s all analytics, trying to create a surplus between on-ice value and off-ice payment.

 

[ottomaddox]

Everybody uses pace for a season that was interrupted by COVID...

And I can't fault Dubas for "Keeping" Babcock. All reports are he wanted him fired and was overruled. Look at the long timethat went by after they lost again to Boston in 2019. They were in discussions to fire him.

Not everybody.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

Not everybody.

70 games. yes everybody. It was not a full season.

 

[ottomaddox]

70 games. yes everybody. It was not a full season.

The leafs were not very good last season. Not much better with Keefe coaching. The results are pretty much there for everybody. It's kind of you to spin it in Dubas/Keefe's favour, but eventually you'll realize that using terms like "pace" didn't get TOR anywhere closer to a cup (let alone a play in series win).

 

[ottomaddox]

Everybody uses pace for a season that was interrupted by COVID...

And I can't fault Dubas for "Keeping" Babcock. All reports are he wanted him fired and was overruled. Look at the long timethat went by after they lost again to Boston in 2019. They were in discussions to fire him.

Who reported that his firing was overruled?

 

[The Podium]

How do you inherit a 105 point team with so much promise and cap space but have nothing to show for it after 2 years?
.

Not going to comment on the rest of your, obviously biased, opinion, but the cap space went to re-signing their best players. They have all their best players to show for it after 2 years.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

The leafs were not very good last season. Not much better with Keefe coaching. The results are pretty much there for everybody. It's kind of you to spin it in Dubas/Keefe's favour, but eventually you'll realize that using terms like "pace" didn't get TOR anywhere closer to a cup (let alone a play in series win).

103 point pace with Keefe coaching with all those injuries and bad goaltending. They were better were better in litterally every statistical category than with Babcock.

 

[darrylsittler27]

Good goaltender depth with Campbell here the full season. Andersen , contract year. Brodie, BOGO plus Lehtonen added to defense plus Sandin is a year older. Subtract Kappy and Johnsson add Simmonds,Robertson, Thornton, Vesey,Barbinov and a healthy Soup.

 

[Menzinger]

A healthier team would make a difference, when your top 2 defenders are injured and/or playing injured it does have an impact.
And yes, missing their prime penalty killing defender hurt.

Healthy:

Rielly, Muzzin​

More experience:

Brodie, Bogosian​

More development:

Dermott, Holl
Liljegren, Sandin​

Wild Card:

Lehtonen
​

I can see where we might expect to see a better team, especially if you get improvement at the bottom as well as the middle.

​

Roater aside,, i think the biggerlst influence will be Keefe having the team playing his way from the start of camp, rather than trying to do everything on the fly mid-season

 

[darrylsittler27]

Dubas gambled last year and then nothing went according to optimum projections. This year he chose a more steel plates seat. He made sure his ass was covered this year.

 

[ottomaddox]

103 point pace with Keefe coaching with all those injuries and bad goaltending. They were better were better in litterally every statistical category than with Babcock.

I'm not making a coaching comparison.

 

[Kiwi]

Good goaltender depth with Campbell here the full season. Andersen , contract year. Brodie, BOGO plus Lehtonen added to defense plus Sandin is a year older. Subtract Kappy and Johnsson add Simmonds,Robertson, Thornton, Vesey,Barbinov and a healthy Soup.

I don't think Andersen in a contract year is a plus for us, he's not a guy that springs to mind when I think of performance under pressure, the guys behind him are certainly better though

Brodie is a big add, Bogo is pretty meh and Lehtonen is a wildcard

Losing last seasons Kapanen and Johnsson isn't huge, but they were good the season before and there is a lot of question marks surrounding those replacements you listed

 

[ottomaddox]

Dubas gambled last year and then nothing went according to optimum projections. This year he chose a more steel plates seat. He made sure his ass was covered this year.

Agreed, but we'll see if his main horses can cover his ass too.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

I'm not making a coaching comparison.

I'm just saying Keefe did better with the same team.

 

[ottomaddox]

I'm just saying Keefe did better with the same team.

Keefe did not do better at anything.

The leafs did not make the playoffs.

I don't understand this idea that making a bold argument (trying to win at hockey forums) trumps a firm grasp of reality.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Keefe did not do better at anything.

The leafs did not make the playoffs.

I don't understand this idea that making a bold argument (trying to win at hockey forums) trumps a firm grasp of reality.

The Leafs lost 6 in a row and were 9-10-4 when meathead was fired.
The whole team improved after that - even with major injuries and sub-par goaltending
Reality

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

Keefe did not do better at anything.

The leafs did not make the playoffs.

I don't understand this idea that making a bold argument (trying to win at hockey forums) trumps a firm grasp of reality.

Because of COVID. If you think it's as simple as Babcock made playoffs, Keefe did not then you are simply not looking at the big picture.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Keefe did not do better at anything.
The leafs did not make the playoffs.

The Leafs did factually make the playoffs. The pace they were on with Babcock would have seen them miss the playoffs, even with the top-24 teams competing in them this year.

 

[ottomaddox]

The Leafs lost 6 in a row and were 9-10-4 when meathead was fired.
The whole team improved after that - even with major injuries and sub-par goaltending
Reality

Your reality is a small segment of the season. Like I said I am not doing a coaching comparison. You can't. Babcock could no longer compete with Keefe because he was fired.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

Your reality is a small segment of the season. Like I said I am not doing a coaching comparison. You can't. Babcock could no longer compete with Keefe because he was fired.

Yet a 5 game series we see once in our lifetimes can be fully judged.

Leafs played better at PK, PP, offensively and defensively under Keefe. Both had the same rosters.

 

[ottomaddox]

Because of COVID. If you think it's as simple as Babcock made playoffs, Keefe did not then you are simply not looking at the big picture.

A big picture is Babcock's 20 odd years in the league perhaps?

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

A big picture is Babcock's 20 odd years in the league perhaps?

He hasn't done much the last few years though. The league has changed. Maybe his schtick doesn't work anymore?
Wings fans warned us about him. They were right.
His player usage was some of the most puzzling things i've ever seen.

 

[ottomaddox]

He hasn't done much the last few years though. The league has changed. Maybe his schtick doesn't work anymore?

Are you in a time machine prepping yourself for the week after Babcock got fired?

Are you letting us in on an internal dialog?

____________

The discussion originated with Dubas' moves. The team did not do so great last year. They didn't make the playoffs. That is a team wide failure. It starts at the top with Shanny and it goes all the way down to the players. A lot of teams have adversity that are no different than Toronto's. That's ok. They can be better and I hope they do better.