Confirmed with Link: [TOR/PIT] RW Kapanen, D Lindgren, LW Aberg for '20 1st(15th), LW Rodrigues, C Hallander, D Warsofsky

[LeafsNation75]

I was shocked he got a mid-first plus Hallander and cap space. Still am to some degree.

I love how I keep seeing "I'm not going to call this a good trade until X, Y, Z happens". Some people refuse to see anything good under this regime.

Obviously the situations were different but when news of the Marleau trade went down and we saw what Dubas paid to get rid of his contract, a lot of non Leafs fans considered it a win for Carolina just because of the 1st round pick. Those voices became louder when they realized it turned into the 13th overall pick.

The weird thing is some of those same people are not giving it the wait and see approach from the Leafs point of view, even though Dubas got the 15th overall pick and usually people talk about 1st round picks on here like they are gold. So it's funny that when Toronto trades for one it didn't get the same type of responses from those people.

Yep, their values were set at a 2nd round pick last off-season by the NHL offer sheet rules. People don't seem to realize or understand this.

Even though giving up 2nd round picks via an offer sheet isn't the poison pill type where it's two first round picks, a second and third round picks or four first round picks, to the Leafs giving the maximum of $4,059,322 for Kapanen or Johnsson with a second round pick value might have been for them not to match.

 

[Havoc]

Knowing that Dubas wanted to trade Kapanen to free up some cap space you got to wonder why Rutherford was willing to trade him a 1st round pick? It's like how Don Waddell knew Dubas had to trade Marleau's contract and used that leverage to get the Maple Leafs 2020 1st round pick.

Yes one obvious answer is he liked Kapanen and had history since he drafted him in 2014. Plus he's still trying to contend because they still have Crosby and Malkin.

However the reports are how the other GM's Dubas spoke with did not want to give up their 2020 1st round picks.

The more I think about it, the more I see that the trade was fair and Kapanen is worth the first and Hallander.

Kapanen is now the youngest in the top 6 at 24 years old. Hasn't hit his prime yet. He has a 20 goal season under his belt. Has some iconic playoff moments. Had a few streaks of being the most impactful on the ice (pre-concussion mostly but maybe he can find that form again). He makes the Pens faster.

And here's the kicker...Leafs already paid majority of his salary. The cap hit is 3.2 but Pens are only paying 2.1 mil/season to have Kapanen in their top 6.

If that's not worth a 1st (edit: > top 10 of course) + something is wrong with the trade market.

 

[kb]

Obviously the situations were different but when news of the Marleau trade went down and we saw what Dubas paid to get rid of his contract, a lot of non Leafs fans considered it a win for Carolina just because of the 1st round pick. Those voices became louder when they realized it turned into the 13th overall pick.

The weird thing is some of those same people are not giving it the wait and see approach from the Leafs point of view, even though Dubas got the 15th overall pick and usually people talk about 1st round picks on here like they are gold. So it's funny that when Toronto trades for one it didn't get the same type of responses from those people.

Even though giving up 2nd round picks via an offer sheet isn't the poison pill type where it's two first round picks, a second and third round picks or four first round picks, to the Leafs giving the maximum of $4,059,322 for Kapanen or Johnsson with a second round pick value might have been for them not to match.

That's exactly it.

Teams could have offered $4 million to either one, and the compensation would have been a 2nd round pick. The $4 million was too rich for either, so it's doubtful the Leafs would have matched. So that essentially set their market value for a trade last year when they were RFA's.

The draft pick flip flopping is hilarious, especially since they have drafted Sandin and Robertson at far lower slots in the draft. If they still have that #15 pick come draft day, I can see them trading down on the draft floor if they don't like who is left value-wise at that slot.

 

[LeafsNation75]

That's exactly it.

Teams could have offered $4 million to either one, and the compensation would have been a 2nd round pick. The $4 million was too rich for either, so it's doubtful the Leafs would have matched. So that essentially set their market value for a trade last year when they were RFA's.

The draft pick flip flopping is hilarious, especially since they have drafted Sandin and Robertson at far lower slots in the draft. If they still have that #15 pick come draft day, I can see them trading down on the draft floor if they don't like who is left value-wise at that slot.

Technically they were never RFA's since both re-signed on June 28, 2019 and never made it to July 1, 2019. However other GM's knew of the Leafs cap situation and how they could try and poach one or both of them with an offer sheet in the $4 million range to only give up a 2nd round pick.

 

[ACC1224]

Isn't that what Don Waddell did when he got the Leafs 2020 1st round pick for taking on Patrick Marleau's contract so he could buy him out.

When the reports are how none of the other teams interested in Kapanen were willing to trade their 2020 1st round picks for him and Jim Rutherford obviously was willing to do that, can't it be implied that Dubas got the better of him?

Not comparable situations. Waddell took advantage of Dubas because he put himself in a bad position.
You can imply anything it doesn’t make it correct.

 

[kb]

Technically they were never RFA's since both re-signed on June 28, 2019 and never made it to July 1, 2019. However other GM's knew of the Leafs cap situation and how they could try and poach one or both of them with an offer sheet in the $4 million range to only give up a 2nd round pick.

Correct. That's what I meant to say....they were pending RFA's. That is why there was urgency to trade Marleau quickly so the Leafs could get both signed prior to July 1st.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

Rutherford in his PC said he acquired Kapanen to play with Crosby, so that seems like he is addressing a need and a want in his top 6 in order to increase the teams competitiveness after 2 X disappointing 1st round exits. The #1 goal of any GM is try and build a successful Stanley Cup team which Rutherford has proven more than capable of.

Kapanen was originally a 1st round pick by Pens (#22OA in 2014), then groomed for 4 years by Leafs and turned into a 20 goals +40 point (age 24) NHLer, which was then turned back into a 1st round pick (#15OA in 2020) again. Its almost as if Pens GM let Leafs invest time and effort in development and then took him back when he is now a capable NHLer and let Leafs start all over again with another 1st round pick.

To add further to this Dubas acquired Kapanen originally from the Pens as a main piece in the Kessel trade of which Kyle agreed to eat 6 years @ $1.2 mil salary retention helping manage Pens salary cap. Pittsburgh then went on to win 2 X Stanley Cups with Kessel. Now that they've moved on from Phil they reacquired Kappy to try and win another. Rutherford almost seems to be using the Leafs as his farm and feeder system and helping his cap situation.

As with all draft picks there is no guarantee the player selected with that #15 overall pick will become as successful as Kapanen is now, and if so we're still years away when getting that answer.

The risk of this trade falls in Leafs hands as Pens know what they're currently getting and likely still seeing further growth potential. However I also suspect Dubas would like to replicate this himself to improve the current roster by re-investing the pick in a deal to bring in an NHLer and increasing the certainty of the return on investment helping fuel Leafs Cup competitiveness for this upcoming season and beyond.

That is a great way to look at this deal and pretty funny! Rutherford trades for Kessel and the only piece to turn into anything was Kapanen which Rutherford used a 22nd overall pick to acquire. Kessel helps Pens win 2 Cups while the Leafs pay $1.2 of Kessel's cap hit which Pens used every bit of that each year to help build those Cup teams. Then after Kapanen is almost fully developed and has produced 20 goals and 44 points and was on his way to another 40+ point season Rutherford trades a 15th overall pick for Kapanen. Getting the only real piece from the original trade that amounted to anything after getting all the fruits that Kessel and the extra cash space provided. It is almost like they rented Kessel for free.

Hallander is a decent prospect but I could see him being nothing more than a 4th liner fringe player just as easy as him being a productive 3rd liner which most believe is his best case. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if the Pens get a future 3rd pairing defenseman out of this deal. Hallander might be considered the better prospect but the chances of either of these players making a big impact besides bottom 6 forward our 3rd pairing defenseman are very slim.

Kapanen is the perfect player for Crosby. Dupuis had many good years on Crosby's RW. I think Kapanen will provide the same type of play and help form a very strong line with Guentzel on the left side. You get a kid that is young, fast, and almost fully developed for a pick and prospect that won't help now if ever. It is always a gamble but getting a young player with term that is already an established contributor is almost always better than what is given up for them.

 

[kb]

Not comparable situations. Waddell took advantage of Dubas because he put himself in a bad position.
You can imply anything it doesn’t make it correct.

This cuts both ways though.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Not comparable situations. Waddell took advantage of Dubas because he put himself in a bad position.
You can imply anything it doesn’t make it correct.

So besides saying Rutherford wanted Kapanen what would you call it when no other GM's were willing to trade Dubas a 1st round pick for him?

 

[Puckstuff]

25 goals is realistic, even 30 wouldn’t shock me with top 6 minutes.

 

[LeafsNation75]

For those who are subscribed and can read The Athletic, this is some of what Pierre LeBrun wrote about the trade.

There isn’t a single NHL team executive I heard from Tuesday who didn’t give him credit for his trade with Pittsburgh.

I mean, if there’s any downside to this deal, I can’t see it. Dubas created much-needed cap space, got a prospect in Filip Hallander scouts believe can be a good player, and most importantly, somehow filled his first-round pick void.

“Good deal for Kyle,’’ said one rival NHL GM, a comment echoed by many.

LeBrun: Maple Leafs accomplish their goal in recouping first-rounder for Kapanen

 

[Dekes For Days]

You have to admit the line of thinking that Dubas took advantage of him is pretty comical.

Waddell took advantage of Dubas

You seem to have no trouble claiming that Waddell "took advantage" of Dubas, with no evidence. Why is Dubas "taking advantage" of Rutherford so comical? Especially since we actually have information supporting that.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

The more I think about it, the more I see that the trade was fair and Kapanen is worth the first and Hallander.

Kapanen is now the youngest in the top 6 at 24 years old. Hasn't hit his prime yet. He has a 20 goal season under his belt. Has some iconic playoff moments. Had a few streaks of being the most impactful on the ice (pre-concussion mostly but maybe he can find that form again). He makes the Pens faster.

And here's the kicker...Leafs already paid majority of his salary. The cap hit is 3.2 but Pens are only paying 2.1 mil/season to have Kapanen in their top 6.

If that's not worth a 1st (edit: > top 10 of course) + something is wrong with the trade market.

Agreed. Thought it was a fair-ish trade from the get-go. I couldn't understand why everyone on the leaf board was gushing over it. But then I remember how much people on the leafs board gushed over the barrie/Kardi trade. Then it all made sense.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

That's exactly it.

Teams could have offered $4 million to either one, and the compensation would have been a 2nd round pick. The $4 million was too rich for either, so it's doubtful the Leafs would have matched. So that essentially set their market value for a trade last year when they were RFA's.

For a player as unproven as Kapanen, teams wouldn't want to give up 4 mil per year in cap space (and more importantly) 4 mil per year in real money. To put that in perspective, Kapanen is making 2.2 mil per year in real money the next two years. Not 4 million. That's why offer sheets aren't usually a threat. It's not just the draft picks you'd lose. It's also the fact that you'd have to significantly overpay. It's the combination.

Ask yourself this... if Kapanen made 4.2 mil (in both cap and real money) the next 2 years, would the Pens give up the same package for him? Would they even offer more than a 2nd?

 

[ACC1224]

This cuts both ways though.

Absolutely

 

[Mess]

Yes one obvious answer is he liked Kapanen and had history since he drafted him in 2014. Plus he's still trying to contend because they still have Crosby and Malkin.

Speaking of history are we witnessing history repeating itself?.

The Pittsburgh Penguins acquired forward Phil Kessel from the Toronto Maple Leafs on Wednesday in a trade involving six players and draft picks. Kessel, forward Tyler Biggs, defenseman Tim Erixon and a second-round pick in the 2016 NHL Draft went to Pittsburgh for defenseman Scott Harrington, forwards Kasperi Kapanen and Nick Spaling, and first- and third-round picks in 2016. Toronto will retain $1.25 million per year of Kessel's salary.

Leafs got a 1st round pick and top prospect Kapanen and some filler players and Pens got Kessel and went on to win 2 X Stanley Cups. Did Pens or Leafs win this original trade the team with the pick and prospect return or the team that won multiple Cups?

Now Leafs are getting a 1st round pick and prospect Hallander and some filler players (Rodigues + Warsovsky) in an eerily similar history repeating type move, where Pens getting Kapanen the only NHLer in this deal, and once again Pens move closer to a Cup, and Leafs taking a step backwards further from competitiveness and refueling for the future.

If the Pens win another Cup in the next few years with Kapanen riding shotgun with Crosby propping him up to new offensive production levels (which is certainly Pens desired plan) while the Leafs wait to see patiently what becomes of the pick and the prospects down the road, while currently moving further from the Cup, will this trade be viewed differently?

What is Kappy's expected production ~ 30 goals & 70 points playing wing with Crosby and perhaps on the PP with Malkin as well and that seems to be offset and worth a 1st round pick and prospect? What is the expected immediate impact of Hallander and a future pick (still TBD who that even is)?

Many Leaf fans seeing this as some big win for the Leafs, but it really could be more of a been there done that, as the goal of winning the Cup the #1 objective and ultimate measure of any successful trade being lost in the return and not the results. IMO

 

[justashadowof]

Let's say in a hypothetical example Kapanen and Johnsson became RFA's last offseason and both signed offer sheets that totaled $4,059,322 AAV. That meant the Leafs could only get a 2nd round pick if they decided not to match. So why would any teams at that time traded a 1st round pick for either player if Dubas was asking for it.

I remember the reports at that time were how some teams were planning on doing that knowing the Leafs salary cap at that time.

Instead we saw Kapanen sign for $3.2 million AAV and Johnsson sign for $3.4 million AAV.

Because otherwise Dubas would have matched and the other team gets no player and keeps their 2nd round pick.

You're about to see the exact same thing happen with Dermott. Dermott isn't worth anywhere close to $4M AAV but he's also clearly worth more than a measly 2nd rounder on the trade market as a useful young NHL defender. The RFA compensation does not coincide with player value exactly. Maybe that's something for the NHLPA to change in the next CBA.

 

[ACC1224]

So besides saying Rutherford wanted Kapanen what would you call it when no other GM's were willing to trade Dubas a 1st round pick for him?

I doubt all of the other 29 teams had a need for Kapanen. I don’t pretend to know the Pens plan for the off season. I’m guessing they found the deal acceptable based on what else they are planning to do, not because the GM has suddenly lost his mind and Dubas was ready to pounce.
At this point we should just be happy he’s made a positive move.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Speaking of history are we witnessing history repeating itself?.

The Pittsburgh Penguins acquired forward Phil Kessel from the Toronto Maple Leafs on Wednesday in a trade involving six players and draft picks. Kessel, forward Tyler Biggs, defenseman Tim Erixon and a second-round pick in the 2016 NHL Draft went to Pittsburgh for defenseman Scott Harrington, forwards Kasperi Kapanen and Nick Spaling, and first- and third-round picks in 2016. Toronto will retain $1.25 million per year of Kessel's salary.

Leafs got a 1st round pick and top prospect Kapanen and some filler players and Pens got Kessel and went on to win 2 X Stanley Cups. Did Pens or Leafs win this original trade the team with the pick and prospect return or the team that won multiple Cups?

Now Leafs are getting a 1st round pick and prospect Hallander and some filler players (Rodigues + Warsovsky) in a eerily similar history repeating type move, where Pens getting Kapanen the only NHLer in this deal, and once again Pens move closer to a Cup, and Leafs taking a step backwards further from competitiveness and refueling for the future.

If the Pens win another Cup in the next few years with Kapanen riding shotgun with Crosby propping him up to new offensive production levels (which is certainly Pens desired plan) while the Leafs wait to see patiently what becomes of the pick and the prospects down the road, while currently moving further from the Cup, will this trade be viewed differently?

What is Kappy's expected production ~ 30 goals & 70 points playing wing with Crosby and perhaps on the PP with Malkin as well and that seems to be offset and worth a 1st round pick and prospect?

Many Leaf fans seeing this as some big win for the Leafs, but it really could be more of a been there done that, as the goal of winning the Cup the #1 objective and ultimate measure of any successful trade being lost in the return and not the results. IMO

Even though he was technically not part of the Kessel trade, it helped Toronto finish last place in the 2015-16 season to win the draft lottery and get Auston Matthews 1st overall. If that never happens Matthews is playing in Edmonton since they were only 1 point ahead of Toronto in the overall standings.

Plus the 2016 1st round pick Toronto got was traded to Anaheim for Frederik Andersen.

Finally another thing people forget about that 2016 1st round pick was conditional on Pittsburgh making the playoffs.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Because otherwise Dubas would have matched and the other team gets no player and keeps their 2nd round pick.

You're about to see the exact same thing happen with Dermott. Dermott isn't worth anywhere close to $4M AAV but he's also clearly worth more than a measly 2nd rounder on the trade market as a useful young NHL defender. The RFA compensation does not coincide with player value exactly. Maybe that's something for the NHLPA to change in the next CBA.

So how come there were reports of Kapanen and Johnsson possibly getting offer sheets only worth a 2nd round pick if they became RFA's? It was obvious those teams saw the Leafs cap situation and thought maybe they could get either one and wouldn't mind losing just a 2nd round pick.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I doubt all of the other 29 teams had a need for Kapanen. I don’t pretend to know the Pens plan for the off season. I’m guessing they found the deal acceptable based on what else they are planning to do, not because the GM has suddenly lost his mind and Dubas was ready to pounce.
At this point we should just be happy he’s made a positive move.

I don't know if Dubas spoke to all other 29 teams. However what we do know is he spoke to Edmonton, Montreal, and Minnesota since they were also in on the trade talks for Kapanen and they weren't willing to meet his price of a 1st round pick the way Pittsburgh and Jim Rutherford was willing to do.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

So how come there were reports of Kapanen and Johnsson possibly getting offer sheets only worth a 2nd round pick if they became RFA's? It was obvious those teams saw the Leafs cap situation and thought maybe they could get either one and wouldn't mind losing just a 2nd round pick.

There are lots of false reports about possible trades, possible signings, possible firings, etc. I'd say the vast vast majority of reports end up being false or not going through.

So they don't really mean anything.

The fact is that there are players like Johnsson and Kapanen out there every year. Players that (based on comparables) are worth around 3 million per year. Why are these players never offersheeted for 4.2 million? Like... ever? Even if the opposing team doesn't have cap problems, wouldn't it be worth a shot? Wouldn't it at worse force the opposing team to either lose an young asset or have to overpay? So why does it never happen?

The answer is simple.

Teams don't want to significantly overpay largely unproven players like Johnsson and Kapanen... as well as lose a 2nd round pick. The opposing team having cap problems has nothing to do with it. 4.2x4 is a significant overpayment for Kapanen/Johnsson based on direct comparables. No team would do it, regardless of the 2nd round pick.

 

[justashadowof]

So how come there were reports of Kapanen and Johnsson possibly getting offer sheets only worth a 2nd round pick if they became RFA's? It was obvious those teams saw the Leafs cap situation and thought maybe they could get either one and wouldn't mind losing just a 2nd round pick.

I don't really see what you're arguing. The asking price for Kapanen through trade is higher than the compensation allotted to his type of contract through the RFA system. I don't think it's a difficult concept. I don't know how to state it plainer than that.

 

[ACC1224]

I don't know if Dubas spoke to all other 29 teams. However what we do know is he spoke to Edmonton, Montreal, and Minnesota since they were also in on the trade talks for Kapanen and they weren't willing to meet his price of a 1st round pick the way Pittsburgh and Jim Rutherford was willing to do.

Ok?

 

[LeafsNation75]

There are lots of false reports about possible trades, possible signings, possible firings, etc. I'd say the vast vast majority of reports end up being false or not going through.

So they don't really mean anything.

The fact is that there are players like Johnsson and Kapanen out there every year. Players that (based on comparables) are worth around 3 million per year. Why are these players never offersheeted for 4.2 million? Like... ever? Even if the opposing team doesn't have cap problems, wouldn't it be worth a shot? Wouldn't it at worse force the opposing team to either lose an young asset or have to overpay? So why does it never happen?

The answer is simple.

Teams don't want to significantly overpay largely unproven players like Johnsson and Kapanen... as well as lose a 2nd round pick. The opposing team having cap problems has nothing to do with it.

Before last offseason was the most we ever heard of offer sheets possibly happening and we actually saw it happen when Montreal got Sebastian Aho to sign one.

Plus there was reports how Montreal tried to get Brayden Point to sign an offer sheet, along with the reports that Columbus and Minnesota presented an offer sheet to Marner.

Hell for this coming offseason I wouldn't be surprised if Montreal tries to offer sheet Pierre-Luc Dubois because he's from Quebec and we have already seen Marc Bergevin not being afraid to try it.