Proposal: TOR/NYR Nylander for Geo, Lemieux and ??

[Petrus]

I’d imagine the Leafs would
Ask for the following ...

Nylander for 2021 1st (Car), Adam Fox, Vitali Kravtsov, Georgiev and Chytil.

That is a severe overpayment. Nylander is not worth all that.

 

[Petrus]

Thanks for the shout out.

I disagree Hank is not an improvement.

Also, not seeing a fit for D type you indicate being made available, not being affordable, whether by trade or signing.

I respectfully leave you to your designs, if that is the opinion of the majority.

But feel free to inform who do you see as fitting your profile and at what cost?

From the UFAs, I think Demelo and Tanev are a good example of dmen to go after. And I am quite certain, they wore Leaf pajamas to boot.

 

[ER89]

Nyls alone isn’t getting Fox who is cost controlled, homegrown, sorry. Maybe the value is there, but I can’t see him getting dealt.

yeah and all the other crap is not getting william.

 

[bernmeister]

what I said...

Thanks for the shout out.

I disagree Hank is not an improvement.

Also, not seeing a fit for D type you indicate being made available, not being affordable, whether by trade or signing.

I respectfully leave you to your designs, if that is the opinion of the majority.

But feel free to inform who do you see as fitting your profile and at what cost?

what you replied...

From the UFAs, I think Demelo and Tanev are a good example of dmen to go after. And I am quite certain, they wore Leaf pajamas to boot.

Those are reasonable targets.
Getting them, and having the cap $ to sign, are 2 dif things.
If that wuz their pjs, you may get a short sweetheart deal, but that is still only narrowing the gap a bit.

Translation: a top F has to go. It cannot be Tavares (NMC) and won't be Matthews. That leaves Marner and/or Nylander.
Even if you virtually gave away the bottom rung of Fs, who are not that expensive to begin with, you will still need to move either/both of MM/WN.

Don't yell at me. It is math. Numbers do not lie.

Hank to Toronto is far out. Even with 50% retention Toronto can't afford him as a back up and they for sure don't want him as their starter. Toronto also has no cap dump contracts. A lot of their contracts are a little rich (10%-20%), but they need those players in their lineup.

I disagree.
Half retained he is 4 for one season. And if you feel you can flip Andersson for value without eating salary, do it. But as part of deal I agreed to take him on full pop and assume headache of flipping.

Barrie is gone, and he was a disappointment. That is not on NYR. Nobody put gun to your head and said swap Kadri for him. Barrie epic fail does not diminish legit and rising talent of Deangelo.

I heard you.
You don't want Deangelo. You want McAvoy type.
Not happening.
You will still need a ADeA type, if you get APietr then for depth, and all the more if AP returns to StL.

ADeA is cheap enough at est 4.5 on 1-2 yr deal.
Take the quality D, the HoF G, and look at a big deal for Marner.

Absent better concrete offers, it's either that or return next season w/more or less what you have now, 1 yr older.

I don’t see a match here. The only thing that makes sense for the Rangers is something around DeAngelo and Nylander. Leafs need defense, but that’s not the type of defenseman they need. Rangers already paid Kreider and Panarin and will eventually need to pay Lafreniere and Kakko which a lot of money tied up on wings so Nylander doesn’t make a ton of sense for them either. I think it’s much more likely that Toronto makes a move for a reasonably priced stay at home guy with a Nylander or Marner (less likely) going the other way. Maybe to a team like Edmonton? Idk, but the match isn’t here. Rangers can’t trade low cost futures and take back 7+ million in salary either.

first bold: agree
underline: What they want -- a superior stay at home D -- has to be available to acquire. Unless/until that changes, this want is exercise in futility.
second bold: Agree, but if we do not have to pay Deangelo with a couple of moves we can squeeze another couple of mil for WN. However, fully concur, cannot trade most low cost futures needed going forward.

 

[TBF1972]

I disagree.
Half retained he is 4 for one season. And if you feel you can flip Andersson for value without eating salary, do it. But as part of deal I agreed to take him on full pop and assume headache of flipping.

Barrie is gone, and he was a disappointment. That is not on NYR. Nobody put gun to your head and said swap Kadri for him. Barrie epic fail does not diminish legit and rising talent of Deangelo.

I heard you.
You don't want Deangelo. You want McAvoy type.
Not happening.
You will still need a ADeA type, if you get APietr then for depth, and all the more if AP returns to StL.

ADeA is cheap enough at est 4.5 on 1-2 yr deal.
Take the quality D, the HoF G, and look at a big deal for Marner.

Absent better concrete offers, it's either that or return next season w/more or less what you have now, 1 yr older.

your simply wrong about everything here:
1) i hate toronto (ok, maybe more part of their fan base here)
2) even after the kapanen trade, they can't afford hank @4 or ADA as a RFA. have a look at capfriendly. with 16 contracts on the book they have less than 8 million. they need a defensive partner for rielly and ADA is not the best fit.
3) ADA was fighting for a better contract last season. just imagine, what would be dubas' leverage in contract negotiation with his agent, when he dealt for his RFA rights. toronto media would eat him alive.

 

[4thline]

Those are reasonable targets.
Getting them, and having the cap $ to sign, are 2 dif things.
If that wuz their pjs, you may get a short sweetheart deal, but that is still only narrowing the gap a bit.

Translation: a top F has to go. It cannot be Tavares (NMC) and won't be Matthews. That leaves Marner and/or Nylander.
Even if you virtually gave away the bottom rung of Fs, who are not that expensive to begin with, you will still need to move either/both of MM/WN.

Don't yell at me. It is math. Numbers do not lie.

Assuming 4m to re-sign Dermott/Mikheyev/Rodrigues and 750k to Spezza we're sitting with 1.75m to add a RD, with apparently Andersen/Johnsson/Kerfoot/Engvall on the block

Engvall -250k (go to a 1m 4C)
Kerfoot -1.5m (go to a 2m 3C)
Johnsson- 2.4m (promote internally, add a 1m W)

= 4.15 additional room, with potential to go to 5.9

Translation: Numbers don't lie, but some people can't read them.

 

[spockBokk]

I wouldnt move that for McDavid

oh c’mon, yeah you would.

 

[bernmeister]

your simply wrong about everything here:
1) i hate toronto (ok, maybe more part of their fan base here)
2) even after the kapanen trade, they can't afford hank @4 or ADA as a RFA. have a look at capfriendly. with 16 contracts on the book they have less than 8 million. they need a defensive partner for rielly and ADA is not the best fit.
3) ADA was fighting for a better contract last season. just imagine, what would be dubas' leverage in contract negotiation with his agent, when he dealt for his RFA rights. toronto media would eat him alive.

thanks for the share.

1. not wrong "about everything" here
2. math says they can afford the pair, short term esp.
Nyl is almost 7.
If you lose Andersen at full pop, that is -5m. That is a shaving under 12m recovered
vs.
adding Hank at half and Deangelo at est 4.5 = 8.5.
ballpark that deal saves Leafs almost 3.5 short term.

3. Deangelo will want to get paid, and like most in covid/flat cap, he will have to be 1-2 yrs patient as that comes w/territory. He will take 4.5 IMO if there is understanding that after 1-2 yrs, post covid, he will start at closer to 5 and get appreciable .5-.75 annual increase per on multi year decent term.

That is the market, ballpark.
If leafs want to compete in the market, they have to pay ballpark market prices.

 

[bernmeister]

Assuming 4m to re-sign Dermott/Mikheyev/Rodrigues and 750k to Spezza we're sitting with 1.75m to add a RD, with apparently Andersen/Johnsson/Kerfoot/Engvall on the block

Engvall -250k (go to a 1m 4C)
Kerfoot -1.5m (go to a 2m 3C)
Johnsson- 2.4m (promote internally, add a 1m W)

= 4.15 additional room, with potential to go to 5.9

Translation: Numbers don't lie, but some people can't read them.

1. You may have to replace Spezza, and that may cost more than min $.

2. "Andersen/Johnsson/Kerfoot/Engvall on the block"
Andersen would be absorbed as a consideration in my deal.
Don't see people otherwise giving you 5m per for him.

Kerfoot is meh.
His production does not command interest/signif return. Fine enough for team looking to get younger, but 3.5 is the very higher end of market on this guy, you have to hope he is worth that an additional 3 seasons if you are a taker. So possible, not def, but possible you either retain or take on or pay some price to move.

Engvall
although he goes up to 1.25, he is young/cheap enough to move readily, regardless of production

Johnsson
subject of endless efforts by leaf fans to dump w/virtually zero takers.
medical issues if I remember and not confusing w/some one else.
he's all yours
no one is taking on over 10m cap over 3 yrs in flat cap situation w/out extracting heavy price, which may still include eating some cap

--------
So I say to you, I have crunched the numbers accurately.
Marner or Nylander or both must go or you risk a repeat.

 

[TBF1972]

thanks for the share.

1. not wrong "about everything" here
2. math says they can afford the pair, short term esp.
Nyl is almost 7.
If you lose Andersen at full pop, that is -5m. That is a shaving under 12m recovered
vs.
adding Hank at half and Deangelo at est 4.5 = 8.5.
ballpark that deal saves Leafs almost 3.5 short term.

3. Deangelo will want to get paid, and like most in covid/flat cap, he will have to be 1-2 yrs patient as that comes w/territory. He will take 4.5 IMO if there is understanding that after 1-2 yrs, post covid, he will start at closer to 5 and get appreciable .5-.75 annual increase per on multi year decent term.

That is the market, ballpark.
If leafs want to compete in the market, they have to pay ballpark market prices.

hank wasn't good in the regular season. hank wasn't good in the post season. andersen had much better numbers, is younger and his contract also runs just 1 more year. 750k cap savings wouldn't motivate toronto to trade andersen for hank one for one.
if toronto shaves 7m with nylander, they better try to get back something they really need. either the full cap space or a player under contract that fits.

 

[4thline]

So I say to you, I have crunched the numbers accurately.
Marner or Nylander or both must go or you risk a repeat.

Subjectively saying "you can't trade those player's because I say so" isn't crunching numbers

 

[bernmeister]

hank wasn't good in the regular season. hank wasn't good in the post season. andersen had much better numbers, is younger and his contract also runs just 1 more year. 750k cap savings wouldn't motivate toronto to trade andersen for hank one for one.
if toronto shaves 7m with nylander, they better try to get back something they really need. either the full cap space or a player under contract that fits.

Let's leave it at Hank is a HoF G, Andersen is not, and we have a dif of op about what is left in each tank.

If you don't appreciate Hank at half + as a return, then you see if a repeat w/Andy or an alternate will get you any better.

NY will move Geo, be happy to get full value out of Hank on his last yr, and move Deangelo elsewhere.

 

[AcerComputer]

K'Andre Miller + 2020 CAR 1st + Pavel Buchnevich

 

[bernmeister]

Subjectively saying "you can't trade those player's because I say so" isn't crunching numbers

not following.
did you mean to say 'you must trade ... b'c I say so'? [referring to MM - WN]
or
were you referring to the guys you brought up and I gave brutally frank assessment of how easily they are moved? Not as easy as you think.

in any event, the numbers are what they are.
my pt remains, either deal MM/NW or expect repeat performance, more or less.

 

[A1LeafNation]

Nylander not being traded. I think Johnsson and Kerfoot go before him.

 

[bernmeister]

Nylander not being traded. I think Johnsson and Kerfoot go before him.

Yeah --- IF you can get takers.
I'm listening [back later].
Who, who?
who takes J and K?

 

[A1LeafNation]

Yeah --- IF you can get takers.
I'm listening [back later].
Who, who?
who takes J and K?

The teams who didn't get Kapanen; and there were a few of them. So obviously the price point and production is attractive.

Leafs will just trade them for slightly less.

 

[bbny]

I wouldnt move that for McDavid

I would. Easily.

But that offer for Nylander is bad. I wouldn't move Fox for Nylander straight up.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Yeah --- IF you can get takers.
I'm listening [back later].
Who, who?
who takes J and K?

Probably the exact same teams that take every other player HF Boards claims can't be moved yet gets moved every time?

 

[BAM]

Toronto fans on their pedestal today after they fleeced the Pens. Not every NHL GM is that dumb. The Nylander move would be to create space for a D-Man like Pietrangelo. Yes, the deal as proposed isn't enough but the Rangers aren't giving their entire prospect pool up for Nylander.

Why do you think the Rangers would be the only team bidding on a 24 year old 30 goal winger on pace for 71 points last year? Especially on a $6.9 million contract.

 

[BAM]

The other aspect of this is the importance of keeping players happy w/NYR as a preferred if not primary destination.
He chose us.
An NMC did not kick in until after this season. which for contract purposes may still be July 1.
All of that was by mutual consent.
There is no basis to move JT w/o consent.

The work around for this, at the time, was yes do the deal w/WIN, but have permission to negotiate the contract in advance, and prior to that say, look, we have a no NMC policy here at NYR. Don't care if your Bobby Orr 2. It's too constricting. An extensive NTC, that we will work with you. But no more Staals, where player has complete and total control. No. We will welcome you with open arms and keep you unless circumstances do not make sense to keep you at the negotiated number. But we need that little bit of an out. And that is boilerplate for you and everybody.

Had that been the case, we would not be where we are now.

Even if we could, just throwing JT out repeats the bad taste of dumping Shattenkirk. We should have kept him and bought out Staal and Smith.

The only place we may send JT I believe is DET which is his hometown and I think somewhere he said that would have been alternate choice in lieu of NY.

It will likely take a big package to realize that but I don't want to get into that now.




Just to be clear.
Leafs also need G, which to partial extent can help if D is insufficient.

But you are right. Need D upgrade.
Prob is the D Leafs fans identify and insist on including are not available, league wide, they are in short supply.

Something around Hank at half + Deangelo who you can do 1-2 yrs at 4.5, and we take back a mutually doable cap dump.

Not seeing a realistic offer for Nylander.
But asks have been overly idealistic as well.




Disagree w/assessment of non bold as relates to what I have said. Not commenting other props.
As to bold, Fox goes nowhere.
Kerfoot may get cheap late future. Johnsson/Hall not promising.

No

Kakko or Trouba for Nylander, that's it.

 

[dumpin]

Well, he got ‘like’ 61 points in his first 2 full seasons in the nhl, and was pacing for a 35 35 ~70 ish season as a 24 year old.

you’re bias is ‘like’ strong

I brought up DeAngelo as a comp in points. One being a defenseman the other a star forward. I "like" DeAngelo's game and I am not enamored with Nylanders. Do you think DeAngelo would be worth the packages proposed?
As far as DeAngelo, he hasnt had a full season yet. He has played 61 and 68 games the last two seasons. In this last season (the mess that it was), he was on pace for 60 points. With Mathews, Marner, and Tavares already on board what would be a more valuable add for you guys, a 70 point winger that plays soft or a 60 point defenseman that plays with an edge. Also after DeAngelo signs he will be cheaper allowing some cap help.
You guys have some legit stars( maybe too top heavy) but every year you fail to pull the trigger on deals to make you a good playoff team. You know the playoffs are different game and the Leafs lack the grit or soul to win.

 

[Toronto makebeleifs]

Easy now. The ~70 point pacing nylander is overvalued.

I mean, clearly. I forgot for a second that he's probably worth a 4th with his sub 7m contract and ability to put up 30 goals

 

[cwede]

the real flaw here is that NYR need immediate top Ws less than immediate top C or D
Laf will likely be all that Willy is by year 2

rather than Willy, send NYR Abramov and SDA
but that doesn't help Leafs Cap situation ...

 

[The90]

I brought up DeAngelo as a comp in points. One being a defenseman the other a star forward. I "like" DeAngelo's game and I am not enamored with Nylanders. Do you think DeAngelo would be worth the packages proposed?
As far as DeAngelo, he hasnt had a full season yet. He has played 61 and 68 games the last two seasons. In this last season (the mess that it was), he was on pace for 60 points. With Mathews, Marner, and Tavares already on board what would be a more valuable add for you guys, a 70 point winger that plays soft or a 60 point defenseman that plays with an edge. Also after DeAngelo signs he will be cheaper allowing some cap help.
You guys have some legit stars( maybe too top heavy) but every year you fail to pull the trigger on deals to make you a good playoff team. You know the playoffs are different game and the Leafs lack the grit or soul to win.

They have no need for a deangelo no matter how you want to slice it. They need meat and potatoes back there. Barrie was a 60 point guy. And they already have a 70 point guy in rielly.

Oh, and nylanders contract is the best of the stars up front. Marner will he traded before he is.

Btw. Nylander played on the garbage team before Matthews came and put up +0.5 ppg on his own. He’s no slouch