Proposal: Tor - ana - wpg

[JetsHomer]

That is so brutal for the Leafs I can't even.

JVR (1st line LW)
Dermott (#1 d prospect)
Kapanen (#4 or 5 forward prospect)
Holland (3rd line forward)
2nd round pick

For

Trouba (Potential #1 rhd with high contract demands)
Pavelec (Cap dump)

That is brutally one sided for Winnipeg. Yet I bet their fans will somehow say it is not enough.

JVR is not a very good player and I can't see the Jets having any interest in adding a player that is effective only in the offensive zone.

Switch him with Gardiner and maybe you're on to something tho

 

[WTFMAN99]

Thank you for a reasonable reply. I agree with what you are saying here in that it's not "exactly" the same due to the teams other assets, but it's close enough though IMO.

My point is, one of the arguments earlier for the Jets to supposedly take the deal on this thread was "value". That somehow the pieces that the Jets fans are saying don't add much (like Holland and the pick) should then just be moved for something of value.

That argument could also just be made to the other thread. You lose two top 4 D and get 1 back, but you could take all that other "value" and make up for it.

That's where a lot of these deals on HF never make sense IMO. You just can't add a bunch of pieces on one side of the ledger and then say, look at all that value. The pieces have to actually have value to the other team specifically. Especially when the piece that other team is trading away is exactly what they really need.

It's not like moving Trouba for Fowler (still only 2 years left) and a nice D prospect is the end of the world (if Trouba decides he doesn't want to sign (which there are no indications of as of today)), but it's no where near ideal for the Jets. Especially when you see how much young RHD (Jones, Larssen) can return in a one for one. That's a much better outcome for the Jets, and if the Jets put Trouba on the market, IMO they would have offers that make much more long term sense than this one IMO.

See, this is a well rationed response too.

I'm convinced this deal helps the Jets BUT I think 1 of 2 possible things will really help in determining things for in a lot of these discussions;

1. Trouba's contract (is it going to be 5.75-7.5M? If so, that's expensive. Rumor has it, that he's wanting in that 6M range, doesn't seem justified unless he's going for like 8 years)

2. Trouba gets traded.

Problem I've had in this thread is Jet's fans saying it "makes zero sense" or treating the pieces being given to them like they are scraps.

 

[Huffer]

JVR is not a very good player and I can't see the Jets having any interest in adding a player that is effective only in the offensive zone.

Switch him with Gardiner and maybe you're on to something tho

That was a bad post to quote IMO. That might have been the players that TO loses in this proposal, but he's framing it like those are the players the Jets get. The Jets don't get JVR or Kapanen in this proposal.

 

[Dustin]

JVR is not a very good player and I can't see the Jets having any interest in adding a player that is effective only in the offensive zone.

Switch him with Gardiner and maybe you're on to something tho

Pavelec is not a very good player. Switch him with Laine and maybe you're on to something.

 

[Huffer]

See, this is a well rationed response too.

I'm convinced this deal helps the Jets BUT I think 1 of 2 possible things will really help in determining things for in a lot of these discussions;

1. Trouba's contract (is it going to be 5.75-7.5M? If so, that's expensive. Rumor has it, that he's wanting in that 6M range, doesn't seem justified unless he's going for like 8 years)

2. Trouba gets traded.

1. I can't see a scenario where Trouba gets those numbers. He can ask for 10 million if he wants, but the market has been set. The Jets also have the space to fend off offer sheets. I think he either signs a deal both sides can live with or he sits. Personally I'd pay him close to 6 if it got us 8 years. A little pricey compared to the comps, but getting 8 years is nice.

2. Kane asked for a trade every year and the Jets didn't trade him on his schedule, they did it on theirs. (One could debate if that was good or bad, but that's irrelevant here, just pointing out that I doubt the Jets let Trouba dictate how this goes). Also, IF Trouba eventually is made available, a deal like Hall / Larrson, or RJ / Jones makes much more sense for the Jets IMO. Closer to 1 for 1 of a comparable young elite player with term.

I've said it makes 0 sense because in my opinion it doesn't make sense for the Jets. There are better options out there IMO. Never said the pieces (well besides Holland who doesn't do much for us) are scraps.

Obviously anything could happen, he could get signed or traded for magic beans. I'm just posting what I think is what's in the Jets best long term interests, and using examples of recent trades as comparisons of better options.

 

[JetsHomer]

Pavelec is not a very good player. Switch him with Laine and maybe you're on to something.

lol ya you're right, the difference between JVR and Gardiner in value is equal to the difference between Pavelec and Laine. Thanks for gracing us with your intense hockey knowledge forum user Dustin

 

[Dustin]

1. I can't see a scenario where Trouba gets those numbers. He can ask for 10 million if he wants, but the market has been set. The Jets also have the space to fend off offer sheets. I think he either signs a deal both sides can live with or he sits. Personally I'd pay him close to 6 if it got us 8 years. A little pricey compared to the comps, but getting 8 years is nice.

2. Kane asked for a trade every year and the Jets didn't trade him on his schedule, they did it on theirs. (One could debate if that was good or bad, but that's irrelevant here, just pointing out that I doubt the Jets let Trouba dictate how this goes). Also, IF Trouba eventually is made available, a deal like Hall / Larrson, or RJ / Jones makes much more sense for the Jets IMO. Closer to 1 for 1 of a comparable young elite player with term.

I've said it makes 0 sense because in my opinion it doesn't make sense for the Jets. There are better options out there IMO. Never said the pieces (well besides Holland who doesn't do much for us) are scraps.

Obviously anything could happen, he could get signed or traded for magic beans. I'm just posting what I think is what's in the Jets best long term interests, and using examples of recent trades as comparisons of better options.

The reality here is that it is not a very good deal for Winnipeg because it does nothing to help Winnipeg. Any deal involving Trouba would need a D of equivalent value coming back. Other than Subban/Weber those deals are pretty rare.

One avenue that has not been explored by the trade forums that I have seen is Trouba + for an upgrade on D. I wonder if there are any teams out there that would be willing to trade a more established D for a Trouba + kind of deal.

 

[Dustin]

lol ya you're right, the difference between JVR and Gardiner in value is equal to the difference between Pavelec and Laine. Thanks for gracing us with your intense hockey knowledge forum user Dustin

Whatever. You state JVR is not a good player than question my hockey knowledge? Was an obvious attempt to show you how ridiculous your post was but even that was over your head.

 

[Huffer]

The reality here is that it is not a very good deal for Winnipeg because it does nothing to help Winnipeg. Any deal involving Trouba would need a D of equivalent value coming back. Other than Subban/Weber those deals are pretty rare.

One avenue that has not been explored by the trade forums that I have seen is Trouba + for an upgrade on D. I wonder if there are any teams out there that ould be willing to trade a more established D for a Trouba + kind of deal.

That's an option too, but IMO that D also has to be (or ideally would be) young. Without Trouba, the Jets only D in the entire system with top 4 upside under 25 is Morrissey (and longershot Stanley).

IMO the Jets and Trouba match up very well in terms of the ages of majority of the core. Depending on the D, it would be pretty hard to move Trouba to get older on D considering the ages of the forwards and the hole the Jets would then be in in regards to defenseman under 25.

The Jets don't have defensive prospects like the Ducks or Flyers to absorb the loss internally. Although just like in my comment of preferring to move Trouba one for one a la Hall / Larrsen, or Jones / RJ, a deal like that with the Jets getting a high end young forward would also need a corresponding move IMO on the Jets part to move a different asset to get a young D. The concept of moving Trouba for a better D would then be similar I guess, where I'd also hope and expect the Jets to make a secondary move to acquire a young D to add to a potential hole in the system.

 

[WTFMAN99]

1. I can't see a scenario where Trouba gets those numbers. He can ask for 10 million if he wants, but the market has been set. The Jets also have the space to fend off offer sheets. I think he either signs a deal both sides can live with or he sits. Personally I'd pay him close to 6 if it got us 8 years. A little pricey compared to the comps, but getting 8 years is nice.

2. Kane asked for a trade every year and the Jets didn't trade him on his schedule, they did it on theirs. (One could debate if that was good or bad, but that's irrelevant here, just pointing out that I doubt the Jets let Trouba dictate how this goes). Also, IF Trouba eventually is made available, a deal like Hall / Larrson, or RJ / Jones makes much more sense for the Jets IMO. Closer to 1 for 1 of a comparable young elite player with term.

I've said it makes 0 sense because in my opinion it doesn't make sense for the Jets. There are better options out there IMO. Never said the pieces (well besides Holland who doesn't do much for us) are scraps.

Obviously anything could happen, he could get signed or traded for magic beans. I'm just posting what I think is what's in the Jets best long term interests, and using examples of recent trades as comparisons of better options.

I am having a hard time coming up with an equivalent in terms of a 1 for 1 defenseman. Maybe Lindholm? Helps balance LHD/RHD for Anaheim, you may need to add a small plus but I won't pretend to speak for Anaheim.

 

[Dustin]

That's an option too, but IMO that D also has to be (or ideally would be) young. Without Trouba, the Jets only D in the entire system with top 4 upside under 25 is Morrissey (and longershot Stanley).

IMO the Jets and Trouba match up very well in terms of the ages of majority of the core. Depending on the D, it would be pretty hard to move Trouba to get older on D considering the ages of the forwards and the hole the Jets would then be in in regards to defenseman under 25.

Completely agree. Most teams if not all hold on to their young promising D. In Hamilton's case I feel that Trouba is the better player and that Hamilton wanted out of Boston.

I wouldn't be too worried about age as long as it is only a couple of years older say 27 or 28. That still gives you plenty of prime years and conceivably you would most likely get him mid contract as well.

The real question is who would trade a #1 D in that age range to Winnipeg and what would the plus have been. Subban would have been very interesting that's for sure.

 

[Huffer]

I am having a hard time coming up with an equivalent in terms of a 1 for 1 defenseman. Maybe Lindholm? Helps balance LHD/RHD for Anaheim, you may need to add a small plus but I won't pretend to speak for Anaheim.

Me too, that's the rub.

I like Trouba, but Lindholm is the better D atm. Maybe things change in the future, but I don't see Anaheim being interested. With Vantanen, Manson, and Montour coming up, their right side isn't in a shape where they'd need to do something like that from a lefty / righty perspective either.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Me too, that's the rub.

I like Trouba, but Lindholm is the better D atm. Maybe things change in the future, but I don't see Anaheim being interested. With Vantanen, Manson, and Montour coming up, their right side isn't in a shape where they'd need to do something like that from a lefty / righty perspective either.

McDonagh?

 

[dracom]

I am having a hard time coming up with an equivalent in terms of a 1 for 1 defenseman. Maybe Lindholm? Helps balance LHD/RHD for Anaheim, you may need to add a small plus but I won't pretend to speak for Anaheim.

Lindholm is not getting traded. No plus you could add to Trouba would make it worth it for us.

 

[Huffer]

McDonagh?

If the Jets were really thinking about being a contender in the next 3 years he would be a nice fit.

I'm not sure if the Jets window aligns personally. It's not horrible though, with the caveat that the Jets should probably still make a secondary move to add a young D as well.

It wouldn't be my own preference to move Trouba for a D with that little term though. Even one as good as McDonagh.

 

[WTFMAN99]

If the Jets were really thinking about being a contender in the next 3 years he would be a nice fit.

I'm not sure if the Jets window aligns personally. It's not horrible though, with the caveat that the Jets should probably still make a secondary move to add a young D as well.

It wouldn't be my own preference to move Trouba for a D with that little term though. Even one as good as McDonagh.

Yeah, other then that I am not seeing a good fit in a trade 1 for 1 LHD that would work for both parties given where they would be in their respective timelines.

 

[JetsHomer]

Whatever. You state JVR is not a good player than question my hockey knowledge? Was an obvious attempt to show you how ridiculous your post was but even that was over your head.

Scoring 60 points doesn't make someone good. I want my players to be good in more than one zone why would Winnipeg value a player like JVR?

 

[Dustin]

Scoring 60 points doesn't make someone good. I want my players to be good in more than one zone why would Winnipeg value a player like JVR?

What are you even talking about? The last time I checked you have to score goals to win games and in an era where scoring is down point producers come at a premium.

This narrative that JVR is terrible at defense is not only asinine but also incorrect. It's clearly not a strength but he is not a liability. He does what is expected of a scoring winger in that regard.

Let me guess next it will be that he is "too soft". JVR is a great player on a great contract that the Leafs have targeted as someone they want to keep.

Again I am in no way or shape saying that he is worth Trouba but if your argument that only good players play exceptional 200 feet game than I guess there are only like 30 good players in the league.

 

[kelsier]

I wouldn't touch Kapanen at this point with a finger and since I would rather have Trouba than Fowler, the original offer would be just bad from Jets' perspective.

 

[heilongjetsfan]

That is so brutal for the Leafs I can't even.

JVR (1st line LW)
Dermott (#1 d prospect)
Kapanen (#4 or 5 forward prospect)
Holland (3rd line forward)
2nd round pick

For

Trouba (Potential #1 rhd with high contract demands)
Pavelec (Cap dump)

That is brutally one sided for Winnipeg. Yet I bet their fans will somehow say it is not enough.

Laine <--- from here
Wheeler
Scheifele
Ehlers
Little
Connor
Perreault
Stafford
Lowry
Dano
Armia
Matthias
Burmistrov
Petan
Copp
Lemieux
Thorburn
Peluso <---- to here is a list of 18 NHL forwards under contract with the Jets

Roslovic
Foley
Kraskovsky
Spacek
Harkins
Kosmachuk
Tanev
^these are 7 guys that have a reasonable chance, based on skill and accomplishments to date, of being NHL forwards... and I kinda think I'm forgetting a guy or two, honestly.

So yeah, the idea that we need any of JVR, Kapanen or Holland is kinda silly. Even if a guy is a good player, if you don't have a spot for him to play, his value *to you* is essentially nothing. That said, Dermott a 2nd and redundancy which pushes us past the contract limit for Trouba? Thanks, but no thanks.

 

[JetsHomer]

What are you even talking about? The last time I checked you have to score goals to win games and in an era where scoring is down point producers come at a premium.

This narrative that JVR is terrible at defense is not only asinine but also incorrect. It's clearly not a strength but he is not a liability. He does what is expected of a scoring winger in that regard.

Let me guess next it will be that he is "too soft". JVR is a great player on a great contract that the Leafs have targeted as someone they want to keep.

Again I am in no way or shape saying that he is worth Trouba but if your argument that only good players play exceptional 200 feet game than I guess there are only like 30 good players in the league.

I'll grant that JVR has 40 decent games under Babcock. Before that he WAS a liability on the ice. He was statistically one of the absolute worst defensive players in the league the previous 160 games so forgive me of I don't believe a hot streak is the real JVR

 

[sully1410]

I don't think this works for us to be honest. I don't value Fowler all that highly and I would sooner add to get Lindholm in return.

 

[Flair Hay]

JVR would be a kick ass piece for a contender with cap space to trade for. Great contract and has some term left. To a team set down the middle (like Florida maybe?) he could be worth a 1st and two futures.

He'd still help the Jets but he's not worth to them what he's worth to Toronto or someone who needs a scoring winger.

 

[MacerV]

That is so brutal for the Leafs I can't even.

JVR (1st line LW)
Dermott (#1 d prospect)
Kapanen (#4 or 5 forward prospect)
Holland (3rd line forward)
2nd round pick

For

Trouba (Potential #1 rhd with high contract demands)
Pavelec (Cap dump)

That is brutally one sided for Winnipeg. Yet I bet their fans will somehow say it is not enough.

That's quite an optimistic view of Dermott.

 

[Maukkis]

That's quite an optimistic view of Dermott.

He probably meant that he's Toronto's #1 defenseman prospect.